Showing posts with label Art Sippo. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Art Sippo. Show all posts

Thursday, September 11, 2014

Rix on Eric Erikson's "Young Man Luther"

I hadn't visited Art Sippo's blog in some time. He posted the following entry some time ago: The best book on Martin Luther now available on Google Play Books!  He then links to and reviews the book, Martin Luther: The Man and the Image By Herbert David Rix. Some years back I interacted with Sippo on various Luther biographies, particularly those having to do with psychological explanations (Sippo said, "These are not just my conclusions. Fr. Denifle, Fr. Grisar, Preserved Smith, Reiter, Ericcson [sic], Marius, and Rix all are in agreement that Luther was mentally ill and that this contributed to his theology").  At the time, I did not have access to the book by Rix, so I passed over interacting with Sippo on it.

From what I remember of my interaction with Sippo, he basically defended all the books that presented a psychological interpretation of Luther. What's interesting is that there simply isn't one psychological approach, there are quite few, and they contradict each other. In the preview of the Rix book available, the author takes the opportunity to point out the flaws in some of those psychological approaches that came before his.   I found Rix's short overview on Eric Erikson's Young Man Luther to be quite interesting.



One could argue that Rix is simply eliminating the competition to his view. On the other hand, one of the most significant and consistent critiques of Erikson is his poor use of the source material. Rix, with whatever his view will turn out to be (I have not read the book beyond the preview), is on the right track if his approach includes scrutinizing primary sources.

To my knowledge, Erikson refused to answer his many critics of Young Man Luther, in print.  




Wednesday, January 01, 2014

Discussion With Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Luther Biographies

Discussion With Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Luther Biographies:  Back in 2006, Roman defender Art Sippo and I discussed which were the best and worst biographies on Luther to read. Dr. Sippo and I agreed on nothing. From my perspective. the conversation shows that Sippo begins with Luther as an arch-villain, and any book that says otherwise is propaganda.

I. On Dialoging With Catholic apologist Art Sippo on Luther Scholarship

II. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Father O’Hare’s “Facts About Luther”

III. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Luther Scholarship and Research (Part 1)

IV. Art Sippo on Catholic Historians Grisar and Denifle and Luther’s Demon Possession (part 2)

V. Using Psychohistory To Interpret Luther (A Response To Catholic Apologist Art Sippo (part3)

VI. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo Takes The Time To Thank Me For My Luther Research

VII. Luther Between God and the Devil: Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Heiko Oberman

VIII. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Roland Bainton's "Here I Stand"

IX. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Richard Marius 

X. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Catholic Historian Joseph Lortz

XI. A Last Look At Catholic Apologist Art's Sippo's View Of Luther Biographies

XII. Art Sippo on Luther Biographies Revisited: Marius on Denifle 

Sippo vs Lortz Revisted: Cardinal Ratzinger help Dr. Sippo understand Joseph Lortz

Sippo, Lortz, Ratzinger, and Luther

Thursday, November 07, 2013

Comparing Dr. Sippo to Dr. White?

From the CARM forums:

Quote Originally Posted by 2timone7 View Post
Art is a friend of mine and no fool. Moreover, Alpha and Omega Ministries is not an unbiased source when it comes to Art Sippo. They, and Sippo, go after each other with tongs and gusto.....on both sides.
Quote Originally Posted by 2timone7 View Post
I spent many years debating Art on-line back when I was of the Protestant persuasion. He can certainly be abraisive, although not much more so than James White and the other folks at A & O Ministries.
A few years ago (2006!) on Patrick Madrid's Envoy Forums I engaged Dr. Sippo on Luther, Luther biographies, and psychology. A good summary of the discussion can be found here: Using Psychohistory To Interpret Luther (A Response To Catholic Apologist Art Sippo. In order to respond to Dr. Sippo, I had to read his posts before the Roman Catholic moderators did. They would frequently edit Dr. Sippo's posts (to relieve them of vitriol), but never ban him from posting. I violated no forum rules, but I was eventually banned from Madrid's forum, and all of my posts deleted. Mr. Madrid actually set up a filter on the Envoy Forums that would stop any posts from aomin.org from posting. Over the years I've found the behavior of many of Rome's defenders to be abominable, both those who claim to be "professional" apologists, and those who do not.

Some of you know that I do post on Dr. White's blog. There is a huge gulf that separates the Internet behavior of Dr. White and people like Dr. Sippo and Mr. Madrid. I'm not exactly sure which "folks" from aomin "2timone7" considers to be "not much more" abrasive than Dr. Sippo. I certainly require documentation. When it comes to ethical Internet behavior, I have no respect for either Dr. Sippo or Mr. Madrid. Dr. Sippo began calling me a "Nazi" and various other names. I've kept up with Dr. Sippo's rants from time to time with The Quotable Sippo Series. I defy anyone to make a list of similar statements from anyone at aomin.org.

On the other hand, to be fair, I abhor some of the ways people dialog here at CARM. Particularly displeasing to me is anyone who claims to be "Reformed" and posts insulting comments directed at Roman Catholics. I hold Reformed people to a much higher standard. Certainly I haven't been perfect on the Internet. I've lost my temper. I've written things that were uncharitable. But the older I get, the more I realize that being "Reformed" means grace, mercy, humility, all provoked by God's holiness. Yes, Romanism is wrong, and those who defend Romanism are defending another gospel. But some of you appear to post like you're fans of pro-wrestling. I challenge my Reformed brothers and sisters to be offensive because of the Gospel rather than being offensive because.. you're just being offensive!


In regard to my interactions with Dr. Sippo on the Envoy Forums, the bulk of the conversation has been preserved on my blog:

I. On Dialoging With Catholic apologist Art Sippo on Luther Scholarship

II. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Father O’Hare’s “Facts About Luther”

III. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Luther Scholarship and Research (Part 1)

IV. Art Sippo on Catholic Historians Grisar and Denifle and Luther’s Demon Possession (part 2)

V. Using Psychohistory To Interpret Luther (A Response To Catholic Apologist Art Sippo (part3)

VI. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo Takes The Time To Thank Me For My Luther Research

VII. Luther Between God and the Devil: Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Heiko Oberman

VIII. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Roland Bainton's "Here I Stand"

IX. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Richard Marius 

X. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Catholic Historian Joseph Lortz

XI. A Last Look At Catholic Apologist Art's Sippo's View Of Luther Biographies

XII. Art Sippo on Luther Biographies Revisited: Marius on Denifle 

XIII. Sippo vs Lortz Revisted: Cardinal Ratzinger help Dr. Sippo understand Joseph Lortz

XIV. Sippo, Lortz, Ratzinger, and Luther


Update 11/10/2013

Quote Originally Posted by 2timone7 View Post
I spent considerable time posting on Pat Madrid's Envoy forums and remember many such debates. You are absolutely correct that Art's postings were often edited by the moderator (Patti) because they went overboard. However, there were certainly Protestant posters who went overboard as well and I think that Patti was actually very even-handed in removing vitriol from both Catholic and Protestant posts.
Certainly people on both sides go overboard. Patti though was not "very even-handed. " Patti and Madrid would flat out ban non-Roman Catholics while allowing Dr. Sippo to remain for far worse comments.

Quote Originally Posted by 2timone7 View Post
It was also very clear that Art Sippo and James White were/are, to be understated, not great fans of the other person or his apologetics. I don't think that James White posted often at Envoy (unless he did so under a screen name that was not obvious), but certainly many of his supporters did.
To my knowledge, Dr. White never posted on Envoy, nor does he typically post on discussion forums. I still challenge you to produce comments from Dr. White anywhere near the vitriol put forth by Dr. Sippo.

Quote Originally Posted by 2timone7 View Post
That's also about the time period that I learned about your work, James, and Beggars All. I can't honestly say that I agree with you real often, but I do believe that you go to great lengths to honestly research Luther's writings, provide source materials, and to confirm/refute what people say about Luther. That is a worthwhile effort and I commend you for doing it.
Thanks for the kind words. Once again though, I would caution you to be careful with defending Dr. Sippo by comparing him to Dr. White. There simply isn't any comparison. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Dr. Sippo actually debated Dr. White in person. As Dr. White recalls, Sippo gave his opening presentation. Then, Dr. White got up to give his opening statement. Dr. Sippo then left the room and went for a coke. From Dr. White's blog:

Finally, someone asked Art Sippo if he had, in fact, left our debate during my presentation. He says he did not. I say he did. I say he used the restroom and got himself a Coke as well. And it seems that is how Madrid recalled it as well, for he wrote back on May 26th on his blog,

Item: Another way Sippo didn’t follow debate etiquette was by leaving the dais and going to the bathroom . . . during one of White’s periods to speak.
Item: As moderator, I could have done a more rigorous job of corralling Sippo, such as not letting him go to the bathroom during White’s remarks, but then, human physiology is what it is, and when the body imposes certain demands, one sometimes must accede to them, no matter what may be happening. Let he who is without physiological demands cast the first stone.

Earlier Madrid had confirmed Sippo’s sitting upon his desk swinging his legs, and he dismissed this as merely representative of “how Art was feeling that day.” So, if I produced a Glock and dispatched my opponent, I could dismiss this as simply being representative of how I was “feeling” that day? Odd, I doubt I’d get away with that. Anyway, let me add another incident from the debate. During the very rigid cross-examination we stood behind podiums that were placed in front of our desks (which is why Sippo could step back and sit on his desk and swing his legs and make faces and gestures to the audience). At one point he asked a question that had as its basis a number of false presuppositions, which I pointed out. When it came time for him to respond, he came back to the podium and began, “Well, of course, no Protestant can answer that question anyway…” and went on to comment without even bothering to respond to what I had actually said. This was his attitude throughout. Now, what would fit with this kind of behavior—my recollection of Sippo’s trip to the Coke machine (the door was to my right…I can remember hearing the Coke machine sound as the can came tumbling down) or his claim to have been intently listening to a presentation for which he hasn’t the first shred of respect and refers to dismissively all the time as the mere rantings of a “prot”? And as to just “having” to go, somehow I have managed to take care of the needs of nature so that I did not have to miss a word any of my opponents have ever said in fifty six debates so far. I’d think Sippo, an M.D., would be able to do the same thing.

Default

Quote Originally Posted by 2timone7 View Post
Everybody has their perspective, but I have to disagree with you here. As a Protestant posting at Envoy, I saw very many of my posts edited by Patti when I went overboard and got too personal or too inflammatory. I also saw plenty of Art's posts edited for the same reasons (his posts probably more often that mine--lol). I saw this with respect to other posters of various religious affiliations. You may argue that it was a good idea or a bad idea for Patti to moderate the forum in that fashion (there are valid arguments both ways), but she was certainly even-handed in how she went about doing that.
The difference between your recollection and mine is that Dr. Sippo was simply edited. I was banned, and broke no rules, at all. Other than having some aomin.org links removed, my posts were never edited by Patti (to my recollection) because I strove to abide by the rules. I know of other people as well that were simply banned, while Dr. Sippo was allowed to continue his insulting tirades.

Quote Originally Posted by 2timone7 View Post
I remember one time when I said that I was working on posting a short piece on the faith/works debate and especially how I saw James fitting into that debate and, ahead of time, Patti encouraged me to post what I believed and assured me that she would be watching to see that comments from some of the more assertive Catholic posters remained civil and charitable. I have much respect for how Patti moderated that forum and I truly miss being able to discuss things there.
I have a track record of attempting to abide by rules on whichever forum I'm participating on. Why do you think Patti and Madrid banned me from Envoy, but never edited one of my posts? Why do you think these words from Dr. Sippo were not edited by Patti on the Envoy forums?

“First of all, I support the ban on Mr. Swan. He is arrogant and no friend of the truth. he acted quite poorly on this board and has some nerve complaining about my "vitriol." His idea of a "Catholic theologian with a positive assessment of Luther" was Fr. Josef Lortz, who had been a card carrying Nazi before and during WWII. Fr. Lortz was a big fan of Hitler's book Mein Kampf and saw the Third Reich as a chance to get the Church "back on track" with its historical agenda which had been derailed by all those Roman policies since the 13th Century.”
I'll tell you exactly why I was booted: it's because the folks over at Envoy back then could not tolerate cogent counter-arguments. After my friend Algo posted some materials based on Dr. White's argumentation demonstrating the futility of the Roman Catholic worldview, he was booted and the forum ceased being a public forum for a while.

I run into the same problem with Catholic Answers. They've been looking for a reason to ban me for years, but I keep a low profile, and abide by their rules. I've gotten a number of infractions. One time for alerting the moderators that a Roman Catholic was using abusive hurtful language. I made alerts on around 3 posts, and then I was chastised fur allegedly abusing the alert system. My last infraction was for using the terms "Roman church" and "joining Rome." How silly is that?

As I stated to you previously, I think some Protestant folks here on CARM are disrespectful, and if I were still a CARM moderator, I wouldn't tolerate it. On the other hand, the folks in control here at CARM are not petrified of counter arguments like Envoy & Catholic Answers. Kudos to CARM for allowing people to truly interact on the subject of Rome. You see, when people have the truth, they need not fear counter arguments. You're part of a religion now that often fears to have arguments scrutinized.

Friday, October 30, 2009

Kook, First Class Biblical Exegete, or Both? The Sungenis Legacy


Catholic apologist Robert Sungenis isn't as popular among his peers as he once was (just ask Mark Shea who referred to him as an "ultra-fringe kook"). Well, at least Sungenis has one fan. Catholic apologist Art Sippo says he's a "first class biblical exegete" and "Catholic Apologist Dr. Robert Sungenis has published a landmark book which in my opinion should be read by anyone who is serious about Catholic Apologetics."

I think it's time for the magisterium to step in and appoint apologists. It would make it much easier if I knew who really to trust as an official source of apologetics.

Sunday, May 03, 2009

Sippo vs Lortz Revisted

A few years back I had an interesting exchange with Catholic apologist Dr. Art Sippo.


When I recommended the works of Catholic historian Joseph Lortz on Luther, and pointed out that Lortz was pivotal to the change in Catholic scholarship toward Luther, Dr. Sippo stated:


"[Catholic historian joseph Lortz] was a Nazi just like Adolph Hitler. Both of them were Luther fans."

"You know, come to think of it, If Mr. Swan rally thinks that being a Nazi doesn't disqualify Fr. Lortz as a Luther expert, why doesn't he go right to the top and advocate the opinions of Adolph Hitler himself!"

"Mr. Swan wants us to believe that a man like Fr. Lortz who held to these "lofty ideals" can be trusted to interpret Luther correctly! Frankly, I would be embarrassed to be associated with him."

Well, if Dr. Sippo won't listen to me, perhaps he'll listen to his Pope:

Question: Where does Luther scholarship stand today? Have there been any attempts to research Luther's theology, beyond existing historical investigations?

Cardinal Ratzinger: Nobody can answer this question in a few sentences. Besides, it would require a special kind of knowledge which I do not possess. It might be helpful, however, briefly to mention a few names which represent the various stages and trends of Catholic Luther scholarship. At the beginning of the century we have the decidedly polemical work by the Dominican H. Denifle. He was responsible for placing Luther in the context of the Scholastic tradition, which Denifle knew better than anybody else because of his intimate knowledge of the manuscript materials. He is followed by the much more conciliatory Jesuit, Grisar, who, to be sure, encountered various criticisms because of the psychological patterns in which he sought to explain the problem of Luther. J. Lortz from Luxembourg became the father of modern Catholic Luther scholarship. He is still considered the turning-point in the struggle for an historically truthful and theologically adequate image of Luther. Against the background of the theological movement between the two world wars, Lortz could develop new ways of questioning which, subsequently, would lead to a new assessment of Luther.

Source (PDF alert)

Sunday, April 26, 2009

The Didache: Sippo vs. Algo

Here's a fun little snippet from Patrick Madrid's Envoy Forum between Catholic apologist Dr. Art Sippo, and a Reformed Protestant named Algo, armed with a Bible and history.

Sippo:As for teachings of St. Paul that were not inscripturated, it is very interesting that the oldest Christian text which is not pat of the NT is the book called the Didache. This book has lots of information on local Gentile churches founded by wandering Apostles and led by local bishops and deacons who were to be considered "prophets and teachers" in the local church. This directly parallels the usage in 1Cor 12:28. I submit that the contents of the Didache actually represent a look into the Church order and discipline of a community in the Pauline tradition. It includes confession of sin, the Eucharist as a sacrifice, a simple Church order, fixed prayers for public worship, and fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays. Sound familiar?

Algo: "It includes":"confession of sin"

Didache:"At the church meeting you must confess your sins, and not approach prayer with a bad conscience. That is the way of life." This is hardly a description of the sacrament of confession. It is in fact found in scripture. James 5:16 (ESV) Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

"It includes":"the Eucharist as a sacrifice"

Didache:"On every Lord's Day—his special day (Literally), "On every Lord's Day of the Lord."—come together and break bread and give thanks, first confessing your sins so that your sacrifice may be pure. Anyone at variance with his neighbor must not join you, until they are reconciled, lest your sacrifice be defiled. For it was of this sacrifice that the Lord said, "Always and everywhere offer me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is marveled at by the nations."

The sacrifice mentioned here is the sacrifice of the person as is described in Scripture: Romans 12:1 (ESV) I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

"It includes": "a simple Church order"

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean a simple Liturgy that looks correct. If you mean order as in Authority notice that there is a mention of two offices "elected by the community "yourselves". No mention of the office of "Priest" or "Pope". This is very similar to Jerome's description.

Didache: "You must, then, elect for yourselves bishops and deacons who are a credit to the Lord, men who are gentle, generous, faithful, and well tried. For their ministry to you is identical with that of the prophets and teachers."

"It includes": "fixed prayers for public worship"

Didache: "8 Your fasts must not be identical with those of the hypocrites. They fast on Mondays and Thursdays; but you should fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. You must not pray like the hypocrites, but "pray as follows" as the Lord bid us in his gospel:

"Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name; your Kingdom come; your will be done on earth as it is in heaven; give us today our bread for the morrow; and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. And do not lead us into temptation, but save us from the evil one, for yours is the power and the glory forever."

The author is referring to: Matthew 6:5-6 (ESV)Mt 6:5 (ESV) "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. 6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

The passage does not instruct the readers to pray "fixed prayers for public worship" but "pray as follows" then quoting Matt 6 which instructs to pray in private "go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret"


"it includes": "and fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays."

Notice that this is distinguishing the fasts of whatever sect produced this document from another sects fasts.Does your church continue to fast on Wed.? If this is an apostolic directive then why not?

Source: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/richardson/fathers.viii.i.iii.html

Saturday, May 03, 2008

Sippo, Lortz, Ratzinger, and Luther

Catholic apologist Art Sippo continually slanders me using the word "Nazi" whenever I mention Catholic theologian Joseph Lortz. It wasn't very long ago when Dr. Sippo said, "But the legitimacy of all Protestant religions is threatened by the continued existence of Catholicism. That is why so many Protestants are anti-Catholic bigots including the pro-Nazi Mr. Swan." Of all the negative comments I've endured from the zealous defenders of Rome, this type of comment is probably one of the worst, if not the worst. Nazi? Using such a word flippantly is downright immoral, not only offending me, but also the memory of those whose lives were taken by the depraved evil perpetuated by the Nazi's.

Now many of you probably have no idea what this is all about. Why would mentioning Catholic theologian Joseph Lortz prompt Sippo to say such a thing? Well, a few years back Dr. Sippo and I discussed Catholic biographies of Martin Luther. I pointed out that up until the biography produced by Lortz, Catholic works toward Luther were typically vilifying, concentrating on Luther as an immoral heretic. Lortz was one of the first to approach Luther as an honest theologian. His work prompted an entire "reformation" in the Catholic understanding of Luther. Sippo responded that Lortz was a Nazi, and I was being charitable to a Nazi, therefore, according to Sippo, I must be "pro-Nazi." You can read my comments about Lortz here, in which I address the charges made by Sippo.

I mention all this because recently in a comment box, I was directed to a comment from Joseph Ratzinger on Luther's excommunication. I searched around for a larger context of the citation, and found a PDF file. I'm assuming that since the article refers to "Cardinal Ratzinger" it was written before he became Pope. Note below, Ratzinger's comments on Lortz, and how Ratzinger simply stated many of things I did about his scholarship :


Question: Where does Luther scholarship stand today? Have there been any attempts to research Luther's theology, beyond existing historical investigations?

Cardinal Ratzinger: Nobody can answer this question in a few sentences. Besides, it would require a special kind of knowledge which I do not possess. It might be helpful,however, briefly to mention a few names which represent the various stages and trends of Catholic Luther scholarship. At the beginning of the century we have the decidedly polemical work by the Dominican H. Denifle. He was responsible for placing Luther in the context of the Scholastic tradition, which Denifle knew better than anybody else because of his intimate knowledge of the manuscript materials. He is followed by the much more conciliatory Jesuit, Grisar, who, to be sure, encountered various criticisms because of the psychological patterns in which he sought to explain the problem of Luther. J. Lortz from Luxembourg became the father of modern Catholic Luther scholarship. He is still considered the turning-point in the struggle for an historically truthful and theologically adequate image of Luther. Against the background of the theological movement between the two world wars, Lortz could develop new ways of questioning which, subsequently, would lead to a new assessment of Luther. Meanwhile, the liturgical, biblical, and ecumenical movements on both sides have changed a lot of things. The Protestant side engaged in a renewed search for sacrament and church, that is for the Catholic Luther (K.A. Meissinger) Catholics strove for a new and more direct relationship with Scripture and, simultaneously, sought a piety which was shaped against the background of traditional liturgy. Much criticism was directed at many a religious form which had developed during the second millenium, especially during the nineteenth century. Such criticism discovered its kinship with Luther. It sought to emphasize the "Evangelical" in the Catholic. It was against this background that Lortz could describe the great religious impulses which stimulated the reformer and which generated theological understanding of Luther's own criticism that had its roots in the late medieval crises of church and theology. With this in mind, Lortz proposed the famous thesis for the period of the great change in the thinking of the reformer: "within himself Luther wrestled and overthrew a Catholicism that was not Catholic." Paradoxically, he could have based his thesis on Denifle who demonstrated that Luther's revolutionary interpretation of Romans 1:17, which Luther himself later interpreted as the actual turning-point of the Reformation, in reality corresponded to the line of arguments presented by the medieval exegetical tradition. Even concerning the period around 1525 during which, following Luther's excommunication and his polemics which were aimed at the center of Catholic doctrine, the contours of a new evangelical church organization became apparent, Lortz thought he could safely say that Luther was "not yet aware of the fact that he was outside the Church." Though Lortz did not minimize the deep rift which really began to take shape in the controversies of the Reformation, it seemed simple enough, following his work and by simplifying his statements, to develop the thesis that the separation of the churches was, really, the result of a misunderstanding and that it could have been prevented had the church been more vigilant."


How odd, Cardinal Ratzinger verified some of the points I made when dialoging with Sippo. There was the "polemical work by the Dominican H. Denifle" that I've mentioned often. There was Grisar's "psychological patterns in which he sought to explain the problem of Luther." And then, there was Lortz who was "the father of modern Catholic Luther scholarship. He is still considered the turning-point in the struggle for an historically truthful and theologically adequate image of Luther." What does all this mean? It should settle the case even for Roman Catholics that Dr. Sippo doesn't know what he's talking about when he throws the word "Nazi" around. Ratzinger simply said the same thing I did. I don't even agree with all the conclusions of Lortz (as I explain here), but I do recognize his importance in the Catholic understanding of Luther.

Wednesday, February 27, 2008

A week and a half ago, he set Patrick Madrid straight....now, the Art Of Attack goes after Robert Sungenis...

"I call on Bob Sungenis as a professed loyal son of the Catholic Church to submit to his Ordinary in this matter. We Catholic apologists are the victims of the lies and bigotry of Anti-Catholics all the time. We should be very careful ourselves not to promote falsehoods about other people."

Yes, I have followed the Sungenis issue, off and on. My point in bringing it up is to show that Catholic apologists confess unity because of an infallible Church authority, and do not have... unity. This does not "prove" that the Roman Church is not an infallible authority (I would argue this in another way), but it does show that the fault for non-unity is not with an infallible authority, but rather with those who ascribe to it.

Tuesday, July 03, 2007

Sippo On Luther Biographies Revisted


"I proudly stand in the tradition of Fr. Denifle et al and I warn people that the foundation of the Protestant Deformation was in the psychopathology of one man-- Martin Luther -- whose melancholy and bipolar disorder touched a personal chord with many Northern Europeans but which had NOTHING to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It caused them to revolt against historic Christianity and to invent a new family of disparate religions that catered to bourgeosie morality and subjective personal needs, and not to either theological integrity or moral rectitude."- Art Sippo

Wow, it must be slow for Catholic apologetics today. First, Madrid, now some fan mail from Art Sippo: Springtime for Luther and Germany. Sippo is at it again, championing the scholarship of Denifle and Grisar, two men whose work on Luther is usually viewed as part of outdated destructive criticism.

Also, Sippo is attempting once again to minimize the work of Catholic historian Joseph Lortz on Luther. Lortz is perhaps the most famous Catholic Luther scholar of the twentieth century. I did a detailed response some time ago to Sippo's views on Lortz: Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Catholic Historian Joseph Lortz.

I did a detailed response some time ago to Sippo's views a number of Luther biographers:

I. On Dialoging With Catholic apologist Art Sippo on Luther Scholarship

II.
Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Father O’Hare’s “Facts About Luther

III.
Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Luther Scholarship and Research (Part 1)

IV.
Art Sippo on Catholic Historians Grisar and Denifle and Luther’s Demon Possession (part 2)

V.
Using Psychohistory To Interpret Luther (A Response To Catholic Apologist Art Sippo (part3)

VI.
Catholic Apologist Art Sippo Takes The Time To Thank Me For My Luther Research

VII.
Luther Between God and the Devil: Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Heiko Oberman

VIII.
Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Roland Bainton's "Here I Stand"

IX.
Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Richard Marius

X. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Catholic Historian Joseph Lortz

XI.
A Last Look At Catholic Apologist Art's Sippo's View Of Luther Biographies

XII.
Art Sippo on Luther Biographies Revisited: Marius on Denifle

Monday, May 28, 2007

Sippo Quotes Alister McGrath’s book, Iustitia Dei


Catholic apologist Art Sippo recently cited Alister McGrath’s book, Iustitia Dei. This book is a history of the Christian doctrine of justification. Those of you who stop by this blog know I enjoy taking a look at those who cite this book.
Sippo was provoked by someone citing Harold O.J. Brown’s book, Heresies. Brown’s statement inferred Justification by faith alone was “…by no means new with Luther.” Brown didn’t offer proof, but rather referred his readers to a work by Hans Küng for more information. Sippo admits, “…it is true that the term ‘justified by faith alone’ WAS used in the Patristic and Scholastic literature prior to Luther. But not in the way that Luther used it and consequently, not in the manner that St. James condemned it.”
Sippo quotes McGrath stating:
"The significance of the Protestant distinction between -iustificatio- and -regeneratio- is that a FUNDAMENTAL DISCONTINUITY has been introduced into the western theological tradition WHERE NONE HAD EXISTED BEFORE [emphasis by McGrath]."

"However, it will be clear that the medieval period was astonishingly faithful to the teaching of Augustine on the question of the nature of justification, where the Reformers departed from it."

"The essential feature of the Reformation doctrines of justification is that a deliberate and systematic distinction is made between JUSTIFICATION and REGENERATION. Although it must be emphasised that this distinction is purely notional, in that it is impossible to separate the two within the context of the -ordo salutis- [the order of salvation], the essential point is that a notional distinction is made where none had been acknowledged before in the history of Christian doctrine."

"A fundamental discontinuity was introduced into the western theological tradition where none had ever existed or ever been contemplated before. The Reformation understanding of the nature of justification -- as opposed to its mode -- must therefore be regarded as a genuine theological novum."
Sippo concludes:
So I am afraid that [Harold O.J. Brown] got it wrong. Luther's doctrine was not known or taught prior to his time. It was entirely new: unbiblical, untraditional, and thereby heretical.”
In his usage of this book, Sippo attempts to show that the Protestant understanding of justification was unknown in church history previous to the Reformation. Further, this “fact” is supposed to “prove” that the Reformers deviated from the historical Catholic understanding of justification. Implied in this argument is the proposition that the Roman Catholic Church received their understanding of Justification from the Apostles, and subsequent Church history records the passing on of its understanding to the Church Fathers, and then ultimately to its dogmatic proclamation at the Council of Trent.
Pause for a moment and consider Sippo’s argument and usage of McGrath. Alister McGrath is a well-respected Protestant theologian. His book Iustitia Dei is not the work of someone with a “new perspective on Paul” or from a man who (to my knowledge) would call himself a “Reformed Catholic”. Why in the world would McGrath present argumentation giving historical support to Roman Catholicism? He isn’t. There are many things to keep in mind when Catholics like Sippo attempt to pull this rabbit out of a hat. Indeed, it is deception. It is a misuse of McGrath’s book. Here are some facts, context, and historical points not mentioned by Sippo.
Does McGrath deny Paul taught justification by faith alone? No. McGrath states, “It has always been a puzzling fact that Paul meant so relatively little for the thinking of the church during the first 350 years of its history. To be sure, he is honored and quoted, but - in the theological perspective of the west - it seems that Paul's great insight into justification by faith was forgotten.'” [Alister McGrath, Iustitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification (New York: Cambridge University Press, 2000), 19].
A key phrase in the above quotes used by sippo is “western theological tradition”. What does McGrath mean by this? I would assume Roman Catholics think it means their “tradition”- that is, the Roman Catholic Church received their understanding of Justification from the Apostles, and subsequent Church history records the passing on of its understanding to the Church Fathers. Luther then came along “out of the blue” and proclaimed sola fide, quite against the "apostolic tradition."
McGrath though begins his book by studying the Pre-Augustinian “tradition”. He states of this period that "For the first three hundred and fifty years of the history of the church, her teaching on justification was inchoate and ill-defined" [p. 23]. And also, “Furthermore, the few occasions upon which a specific discussion of justification can be found generally involve no interpretation of the matter other than a mere paraphrase of a Pauline statement. Justification was simply not a theological issue in the pre-Augustinian tradition” [19]. So, right from the start, McGrath notes 350 years in which one cannot account for what the exact understanding of justifcation was. This compounds the Catholic understanding of justification, because history is supposed to verify their conclusions. Here are 350 years of trouble for Catholics wishing to trace their doctrines in order to validate their doctrines.
McGrath makes the case that Augustine didn't know Greek and the entire direction of the Western Church was redirected away from what the Bible means by justification. Commenting on McGrath’s book, R.C. Sproul notes, “McGrath sees Augustine’s treatment of justification as pivotal to the subsequent development of the doctrine of justification in the Roman Catholic Church..." Sproul then quotes Mcgrath: “Augustine understands the verb iustificare to mean ‘to make righteous,’ an understanding of the term which he appears to have held throughout his working life. In arriving at this understanding, he appears to have interpreted -ficare as the unstressed form of facere, by analogy with vivificare and mortificare. Although this is a permissible interpretation of the Latin word, it is unacceptable as an interpretation of the Hebrew concept which underlies it.” [R.C. Sproul, Faith Alone : The Evangelical Doctrine of Justification, (Grand Rapids: Baker books, 1999), 99]. One must wonder about unquestioned Roman Catholic allegiance to Augustine’s understanding of the term justification. They’re putting all their chips with a guy who didn’t know Hebrew (or Greek on level needed to do Biblical exegesis), and simply used private interpretation to arrive at his etymological understanding.
Was Augustine’s view a “theological novum” (a favorite phrase Roman Catholics culled from McGrath)? Who previous to Augustine understood the term the way he did? Consider what McGrath notes: "The pre-Augustinian theological tradition, however, may be regarded as having taken a highly questionable path in its articulation of the doctrine of justification in the face of pagan opposition" [p. 18-19]. McGrath mentions that "For the first three hundred and fifty years of the history of the church, her teaching on justification was inchoate and ill-defined"[ Ibid. 23]. So, where is Augustine's view in the early church?
McGrath shows that the Reformers demonstrated both continuity and discontinuity with the period which immediately preceded it, and he notes this is true of “all periods in the history of doctrine”[187]. .McGrath notes “The protestant understanding of the nature of justification represents a theological novum, whereas its understanding of its mode does not” (184). Note there are two aspects to McGrath’s point: nature and mode. One aspect was a discontinuity, the other continuity. If one is to use McGrath’s insight, at least use it correctly. Be willing to put forth the actual position he presents. Be willing to admit McGrath says this is true of all periods in the history of doctrine.
There was a great ambiguity as to what exactly "justification" was even at Trent, and this is documented by McGrath:"The Council of Trent was faced with a group of formidable problems as it assembled to debate the question of justification in June 1546. The medieval period had witnessed the emergence of a number of quite distinct schools of thought on justification, clearly incompatible at points, all of which could lay claim to represent the teaching of the Catholic church." [p. 259)]. McGrath goes on to point out "...[T]here was considerable disagreement in the immediate post-Tridentine period concerning the precise interpretation of the decretum de iustificatione" [ibid. 268]. In other words, even after Trent made its decree on Justification, Catholics were confused as to how to interpret it!
Sippo is reading into McGrath what he wants to. McGrath is not arguing for Rome’s view of justification. A great question to ask Mr. Sippo is what exactly was the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification previous to Trent? Jaraslov Pelikan’s book, Obedient Rebels: Catholic Substance and Protestant Principle in Luther’s Reformation, points out:
“Existing side by side in pre-Reformation theology were several ways of interpreting the righteousness of God and the act of justification. They ranged from strongly moralistic views that seemed to equate justification with moral renewal to ultra-forensic views, which saw justification as a 'nude imputation' that seemed possible apart from Christ, by an arbitrary decree of God. Between these extremes were many combinations; and though certain views predominated in late nominalism, it is not possible even there to speak of a single doctrine of justification.” (p.51-52)
Pelikan says elsewhere:
"All the more tragic, therefore, was the Roman reaction on the front which was most important to the reformers, the message and teaching of the church. This had to be reformed according to the word of God; unless it was, no moral improvement would be able to alter the basic problem. Rome’s reactions were the doctrinal decrees of the Council of Trent and the Roman Catechism based upon those decrees. In these decrees, the Council of Trent selected and elevated to official status the notion of justification by faith plus works, which was only one of the doctrines of justification in the medieval theologians and ancient fathers. When the reformers attacked this notion in the name of the doctrine of justification by faith alone—a doctrine also attested to by some medieval theologians and ancient fathers—Rome reacted by canonizing one trend in preference to all the others. What had previously been permitted (justification by faith and works), now became required. What had previously been permitted also (justification by faith alone), now became forbidden. In condemning the Protestant Reformation, the Council of Trent condemned part of its own catholic tradition."[Source: Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York: Abingdon Press, 1959), pp. 51-52].
There is also the problem of Catholic apologetic double standards. The Catholic apologists assume Trent was following the tradition of the church, and there was no teaching of “faith alone” previous to Luther. In other words, Luther invented “justification by faith alone”. It didn’t exist until Luther. It can’t be verified in church history. It can’t be true. On the other hand, when the same historical standard is applied to certain Roman Catholic dogmas, like Mary’s Bodily Assumption, Purgatory, Indulgences, etc., this same historical standard is swept under the rug and hidden. One has to seriously question why a standard that Catholic apologists hold Protestants to is not likewise applied to their own beliefs. Wade through the corridors of church history and search for the threads of all Roman Catholic dogma. One falls flat of linking many of them back to the early church, or in some instances, even the Bible.

Saturday, May 26, 2007

Art Sippo Comments “Edited by - Patti on 05/26/2007 06:12:31 AM”

Catholic apologist Art Sippo must have said something not so nice in his recent rant about me over on the Envoy forum. Well, whatever it was, Patti, an Envoy moderator, did the right thing and helped Art not embarrass Envoy and Catholic apologists.

In this recent rant, Sippo is rehashing material from our dialog on Luther biographies:

“First of all, I support the ban on Mr. Swan. He is arrogant and no friend of the truth. he acted quite poorly on this board and has some nerve complaining about my "vitriol." His idea of a "Catholic theologian with a positive assessment of Luther" was Fr. Josef Lortz, who had been a card carrying Nazi before and during WWII. Fr. Lortz was a big fan of Hitler's book Mein Kampf and saw the Third Reich as a chance to get the Church "back on track" with its historical agenda which had been derailed by all those Roman policies since the 13th Century.”

Well Art, anyone interested can read that discussion and see if I was arrogant, no friend of the truth, and acting poorly. In regard to Luther and his Catholic biographer Joseph Lortz, you can read my perspective on this here:


Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Catholic Historian Joseph Lortz

Art Sippo Comments “Edited by - Patti on 05/26/2007 06:12:31 AM”

Catholic apologist Art Sippo must have said something not so nice in his recent rant about me over on the Envoy forum. Well, whatever it was, Patti, an Envoy moderator, did the right thing and helped Art not embarrass Envoy and Catholic apologists.

In this recent rant, Sippo is rehashing material from our dialog on Luther biographies:

“First of all, I support the ban on Mr. Swan. He is arrogant and no friend of the truth. he acted quite poorly on this board and has some nerve complaining about my "vitriol." His idea of a "Catholic theologian with a positive assessment of Luther" was Fr. Josef Lortz, who had been a card carrying Nazi before and during WWII. Fr. Lortz was a big fan of Hitler's book Mein Kampf and saw the Third Reich as a chance to get the Church "back on track" with its historical agenda which had been derailed by all those Roman policies since the 13th Century.”

Well Art, anyone interested can read that discussion and see if I was arrogant, no friend of the truth, and acting poorly. In regard to Luther and his Catholic biographer Joseph Lortz, you can read my perspective on this here:

Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Catholic Historian Joseph Lortz

Also, if one wants a Catholic apologists' perspective on my Envoy discussion with Dr. Sippo, take a look at this:

How Do Catholic Apologists feel about Art Sippo?

Thursday, September 14, 2006

Art Sippo on Luther Biographies Revisited: Marius on Denifle

A few months back I got into a heated exchange with Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Luther biographies. I spent a considerable amount of time with Sippo, because he claims to be knowledgeable on Luther, spending many years studying him.

Dr. Sippo strongly defended the Luther biography put out by Catholic historian Heinrich Denifle: "…Denifle… revealed what prots had been deing for centuries. Luther was mentally unstable and those stupid enough to follow him were dsiciples of a lunatic and a dishonest immoralist."

I pointed out to Dr. Sippo that Denifle’s work on Luther is generally not taken seriously by either Roman Catholic or protestant scholars. Denifle belongs to an outdated style of Luther scholarship that presented excessive vilification, rather than scholarly history. Denifle held Luther was a fallen-away monk with unbridled lust, a theological ignoramus, an evil man, and used immorality to begin the Reformation. Denifle accuses Luther of buffoonery, hypocrisy, pride, ignorance, forgery, slander, pornography, vice, debauchery, drunkenness, seduction, corruption, and more: he is a lecher, knave, liar, blackguard, sot, and worse: he was infected with the venereal disease syphilis.

Sippo never retreated from his recommendation of Denifle. In fact, he saw Denifle as inspiring modern Luther biographies:

“[Denifle] found evidence of Luther's intemperate personality, his intolerance, and his gross logical inconsistency in what he wrote. He also resurrected the complaints of many of Luther's contemporaries about the man's erratic behavior and his excesses. It is Fr. Denifle who brought these things to light and spurred on the more critical portrait of Luther that would emerge in the 20th Century from Fr. Grisar, Preserved Smith, Paul Reiter, Erik Ericsson, Marius, and Rix.”

Note above, Sippo mentions “Marius” as a direct literary descendant of Denifle. Sippo repeatedly recommended Richard Marius’s Luther: A Biography (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company), 1974. I didn’t comment on this book for one reason, I didn’t have it ( I did comment on the more recent book on Luther from Marius, Luther: The Christian Between God and Death) . Well, I finally came across a copy of Luther: A Biography while on vacation (found it for a dollar at a used bookstore). Interestingly, Marius comments on Denifle’s work on Luther:

“…[F]ew people today are likely to be upset because Luther married a nun. We are more likely to become annoyed with such people as Thomas More, who seized upon Luther's marriage with shouts of grim pleasure as if this conjugal act finally showed the world just how evil Luther was. The very learned German Catholic historian Heinrich Denifle, in his Luther und Luthertum, written near the turn of this century, was bitterly hostile to Luther. And he summarized the traditional Catholic view that Luther was a lusty monk who could not keep his vows. But Catholic scholars are now embarrassed by Denifle in spite of his monumental learning, and in a day when the Catholic priesthood is experiencing a trauma of its own over the issue of celibacy, Luther's marriage does not seem to be such a stigma.” [Source: Richard Marius Luther: A Biography (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1974), 206].

As a consequence of the great Weimar Edition, the twentieth century has been flooded with Luther studies. Heinrich Denifle produced the first modern consideration of Luther's works done with meticulous concern for Luther's own writing. But Denifle was only Cochlaeus with footnotes. He sought to prove that Luther was dominated by lust, that the Reformation came solely from his hankering for sexual intercourse, that the theological reasons Luther gave were mere lies to cover his guilt, that the lies were easily refuted, and that Catholics had been perfectly right in condemning him as a heretic.

Denifle wrote at a time when the Catholic Church was under furious attack throughout Europe and the world. Socialism, nationalism, secularism, and the philosophical spirit that had become jaded with nostalgia and romanticism wanted to sweep the Church under the rug of history. Within the Church itself some American Catholics were coming dangerously close to teaching that activity was the way to salvation. And some French scholars were undermining the very foundations of the Church by a radical historical study directed at the origins of Christianity. In that troubled context, Denifle's attack on Luther became a defense of the Church that stood in the world as a champion of decency and right reason against perversion and madness. By studying the righteous judgment of the Church against Luther in the greatest peril the Church had faced in its history, a troubled Catholic might infer the righteous judgment of the Church amid the dangers of the new twentieth century and so be moved with courage and hope to do his religious duty. Protestants naturally enough responded with books that vigorously defended their hero. Denifle forced them not so much into biography as into minute textual analyses to prove that Luther's statements about himself reflected a genuine personal struggle with sin, but not sin conceived as sexual lust. No, the concupiscence Luther talked about meant a selfish desire of the heart to make the self the center of the universe. Denifle did have an incalculable general effect. He made students of Luther pay close attention to the details of Luther's life in their relation to his theology, and he also turned scholarship to a consideration of the flood of works from Luther's pen that had been neglected. Everyone had looked at the ninety-five theses. The Babylonian Captivity of the Church, the Freedom of a Christian, the Address to the Christian Nobility of the German Nation, and some of the devotional works. But now scholars were forced to look at other works that were less inspiring.” [Source: Richard Marius, Luther: A Biography (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1974), 246-247].

Far from recommending Denifle’s work, Marius points out its flaws. He notes exactly what I did to Sippo, and also points out that even Catholic scholars are “embarrassed” by Denifle’s work. Marius is indeed correct on the effect that Denifle’s work had on Protestant Luther biographers. It’s the same effect that the modern day anti-Luther Roman Catholic webpages have on me. They provoke me to research. While Catholic scholars were embarrassed by Denifle’s work, my hope in exposing Sippo’s inherent bias against Luther will likewise embarrass the current Catholic apologetic community

Sunday, June 25, 2006

Discussion With Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Luther Biographies

Catholic apologist Art Sippo and I discussed which were the best and worst biographies on Luther to read. Needless to say, Dr. Sippo and I agreed on nothing. The conversation shows that Sippo begins with Luther as an arch-villain, and any book that says otherwise is propaganda. The discussion took place on Patrick Madrid's Envoy Forums.



I. On Dialoging With Catholic apologist Art Sippo on Luther Scholarship

II. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Father O’Hare’s “Facts About Luther”

III. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Luther Scholarship and Research (Part 1)

IV. Art Sippo on Catholic Historians Grisar and Denifle and Luther’s Demon Possession (part 2)

V. Using Psychohistory To Interpret Luther (A Response To Catholic Apologist Art Sippo (part3)

VI. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo Takes The Time To Thank Me For My Luther Research

VII. Luther Between God and the Devil: Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Heiko Oberman

VIII. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Roland Bainton's "Here I Stand"

IX. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Richard Marius

X. Catholic Apologist Art Sippo on Catholic Historian Joseph Lortz

XI. A Last Look At Catholic Apologist Art's Sippo's View Of Luther Biographies

XII. Art Sippo on Luther Biographies Revisited: Marius on Denifle

Sippo vs Lortz Revisted: Cardinal Ratzinger help Dr. Sippo understand Joseph Lortz

Sippo, Lortz, Ratzinger, and Luther