The appearance of idolatry and treating Mary as a mediator

1 Timothy 2:5
Revelation 19:10; 22:8-9

 Deuteronomy 18:11 

1 Samuel 28:1-25

1 Chronicles 10:13-14

Sproul and MacArthur on Roman Catholicism, praying to Mary, Trent and justification by faith alone, and the Mass

If it looks like a duck . . .

Lydia McGrew wrote: "One point that occurs to me is that if idolatry creeps into a Christian group or into the life of a Christian (or Jew, for that matter), it will do so in some way that can be explained away."

Benedict XVI praying to a statue of Mary.  Looks like idolatry to me!

John Paul 2 and several other Roman Catholic priests bowing down to a statue of Mary and praying to her.  Looks like idolatry to me! 

Benedict XVI and John Paul 2 were not just poor uneducated peasants in Fatima, Portugal, but rather suppossedly the "infallible interpreter" of the whole "true" Christian Church.

A Roman Catholic may counter with, "they are just asking the real Mary in heaven to pray for them" and " they are only using the statues to help them visualize her.  They are not really talking to the stone or plastic statue and they are not really bowing down to the stone or plastic or wood carving."

or "We can distinquish between dulia and hyperdulia and latria in our minds, and we don't give latria to Mary or the saints, when we pray to them."

or

"unless you have entered into that experience, you cannot judge it."  

or

"Idolatry, occurs internally in the heart, primarily. Human beings can explain away idolatry in their hearts and minds, because human beings have a massive capacity for self-deception.  Humans are skilled at rationalization and justify things within themselves.    Someone has to consciously and deliberately choose to be committing idolatry in the heart.  Someone has to consciously and deliberately choose to replace God in their prayers with Mary or St. Joseph or St. Teresa or St. Patrick, or else it isn't truly idolatry. It may be an extreme case of a lack of diligence, or spiritual laziness, but not idolatry."

A question for the Roman Catholic who makes these rationalizations:
"Do you think the apostle John was consciously and deliberately committing idolatry when he bowed down to the angel and was rebuked for it in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9?

"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. "  Revelation 19:10

 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” Revelation 22:8-9

See many past articles I have written on the issue of Roman Catholic Marian Piety and the bad witness it has given to Muslims for centuries, and continues to this day. 

Roman Catholics continue to give bad witness to Muslims

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-truly-blasphemous-prayer-to-mary-by.html

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2014/01/marian-dogmas-began-with-fiction-and.html

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/12/muslims-quoting-coptic-and-roman.html

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/08/church-converted-into-mosque.html

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/09/witnessing-to-muslims-answering-son-of.html

A more honest way of viewing Roman Catholic Marian Prayers

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2014/11/marian-prayers.html

Written by a High Continuing Anglican, assessing Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.

Lydia McGrew said...

A couple of illustrations. Here are a couple of very ancient prayers to the Virgin Mary:

We fly to thy patronage,
O holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin. Amen.
3rd Century; Oldest Known Prayer to Mary

Loving Mother of the Redeemer,
Gate of heaven, star of the sea,
Assist your people
who have fallen yet strive to rise again,
To the wonderment of nature you bore your Creator,
yet remained a virgin after as before,
You who received Gabriel's joyful greeting,
have pity on us, poor sinners.
Ancient Liturgy of the Hours Prayer\

Many, many more examples could be found. One would _never_ speak of asking for the prayers of a friend on earth, however godly, in those terms.

Imagine that Jones is a very godly man and that Smith is his less godly Christian friend. Smith has some problems in his life. One would never say to Smith, "Fly to Jones for refuge and ask him to deliver you from all dangers" meaning by that, "Ask Jones to pray for you." It wouldn't matter how great a person Jones was, how great a Christian, how much the passage in James could be presumed to apply to Jones. To talk about Jones in those terms would be to treat him as a superbeing or a magician, not just an especially godly man.

And all the more so if you were telling the person to do this by mental prayer, which God would convey to Jones in the form of some sort of supernaturally aided ESP.

If one asserts that the saints' knowledge of our prayers is made possible by divine miracle rather than being due to a natural power, but if all liturgical practice encourages people to *take it as a given* that they can speak from anywhere on earth to Mary or the other saints and be heard, then the term "miracle" is irrelevant to the impression given. This is a "miracle" that is always done by God and can be taken for granted in practice to be in force--they will hear your prayers. The effect of all of this is, unfortunately, very much what I felt bound to assert in the main post. I speak here as someone who once was more sympathetic to prayers for the saints.

IMO it would be better for Catholic apologists to bite the bullet. Instead of telling Protestants that it's just like asking a godly friend for prayers, which feels like a bait and switch in light of actual Catholic practice (not just of ignorant Catholics, but uniform and church-endorsed Catholic practice), it would be better just to say outright: There is an admittedly thin but bright line in Catholic theology between what we do w.r.t. * [with respect to] the saints and worship. You Protestants should just get over your squeamishness over the thinness of that line, rely on its brightness, and cross the Tiber.

http://lydiaswebpage.blogspot.com/2014/11/for-all-saints-and-all-souls-speak-of.html?showComment=1415199778955#c357230309474796733

*[with respect to] - my addition