Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics

Hi James, I guess what that Lutheran by using Act...

2012-05-26T03:46:49.939-04:00

Hi James,

I guess what that Lutheran by using Acts 7:31 is trying to say is that God will keep His promise. God assured (faith-ed) us of his promise to judge the world by resurrecting Christ from the dead. Lutheran when they talk about "faith" normally think of "trusting God's promise". So that Lutheran is underscoring his point that God will grant forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit in baptism as promised through Peter (Acts 2:38).

Interesting discussions.

Martin

Great post especially in an age of Machen's Wa...

2012-05-26T00:55:33.507-04:00

Great post especially in an age of Machen's Warrior Children.

Thanks James. Really beautiful quote.

2012-05-25T22:49:32.726-04:00

Thanks James. Really beautiful quote.

A few other things in English like the following ...

2012-05-25T15:49:26.598-04:00

A few other things in English like the following

http://books.google.com/books/about/Commentary_on_being_and_essence.html?id=HFsdAAAAIAAJ

but almost nothing theological, strictly speaking.

Steelikat- Thanks for your comments. I'm ba...

2012-05-25T15:46:57.298-04:00

Steelikat-

Thanks for your comments.

I'm baffled by the use of Acts 17:31 by the Lutheran in the discussion.

I wasn't able to join the CARM bbs because I c...

2012-05-25T11:23:57.501-04:00

I wasn't able to join the CARM bbs because I couldn't correctly answer the security question (what country IS the state of Florida, in btw? It apparently isn't the USA, the CSA, or Florida and I couldn't think of anything else to try). Hey, I didn't think of trying "NAFTA" oh, well.

I do want to make sure that you know that traditional Lutherans don't generally think that EVERYONE is given faith. God hasn't told us in scripture that he will work saving faith other than through the gospel. I assume the person who told you that lives in a cultural milieu where everyone is baptized as an infant and was thinking of the question in those terms.

OTOH, if the person you had that discussion with was raised in the ELCA who knows what he was taught. I know I heard some goofy things along the way.

Also, someone else was admittedly talking about a "faith" that is something other than Christian faith, which is not an invalid use of the word (like most words in a natural language, the word "faith" has many meanings) but which is confusing and which confused and somewhat derailed the discussion. I have faith that my skilled and conscientious civil engineer friend designed a safe bridge but that, while truly corresponding to one of the definitions of the word "faith" is not the faith that God works in the believer.

Yes, of course, it is part of the gospel. "B...

2012-05-25T09:25:34.336-04:00

Yes, of course, it is part of the gospel.

"Believe and be baptized"

"make disciples, baptizing them...."

"repent and be baptized...for the forgiveness of sins".

etc, etc.

-Joe H.

"If you're interested in exactly what ...

2012-05-24T17:37:26.348-04:00
"If you're interested in exactly what Lutherans think about baptismal regeneration, the gift of faith, etc., you'll find this discussion interesting."

Lutherans sure do put a lot of focus on baptism. Some even go as far to say that baptism is Gospel.

That is quite a stretch Ana, as the O.T. speaks o...

2012-05-24T07:05:14.772-04:00
That is quite a stretch Ana, as the O.T. speaks of the Gentiles being given salvific grace and of a New Covenant under which they are on a large scale, which the N.T. affirms (Isa 42:1-4; 49:6; Jer. 31:31-34; Mt. 12:21; Rm. 15:12; Heb. 8:8-13)

In contrast, absolutely nowhere do we see prayers for the dead (nor to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord).

And if you are actually referring to the Gentiles being a sacrificial offering, then that is likewise perverse, being not simply contrary to the N.T. but also the O.T., in which forcing people to be sacrificial offerings was a pagan practice disallowed of God, (Jer. 32:35) and unable to atone as they were not without blemish. (Dt. 15:21)

While there are somethings in Scripture that by interpretation could arguably seem to be contradictory, praying for the dead, which was a late practice, simply has no support.

“It then becomes clear that at the time of Judas Maccabeus-around 170 B.C., a surprisingly innovative period-prayer for the dead was not practiced, but that a century later it was practiced by certain Jews.” - Jacques Le Goff, The Birth of Purgatory, trans. Arthur Goldhammer (Chicago: The University of Chicago Press, 1984), p.45. http://www.lightshinesindarkness.com/purgatory_history_1.htm

And an aside, the lack of real Scriptural substantiation of such Roman traditions, from praying to the departed or for them, to an ordained separate class of men called priests, testifies against the Islamist charge that the Catholic church changed the Bible to fit is doctrines, as it would not have been difficult at all to slip a few words in their that would give such clear support.

Hi James, To clarify -- it is not my belief, as A...

2012-05-23T20:32:38.756-04:00
Hi James,

To clarify -- it is not my belief, as Ana, that the aforementioned passage of Malachi is grossly objectionable. Rather, I was proposing a scenario in which a non-Catholic Christian is disturbed by that passage -- (because it prophesies that Gentiles will continually present a pure offering to God), believing the pure offering to be a sacrificial victim, perceiving that description of the Gentiles’ relationship with God as being be contrary to the gospel -- and on these grounds, challenges the canonicity of the book to which the passage belongs.

Well, that may be so. Coming in here from time to ...

2012-05-23T15:48:54.304-04:00
Well, that may be so. Coming in here from time to time has really sharpened my senses to discern good from evil in this format and venue.

I find it much easier to take the criticism in here, the reproofs of instruction than in other venues, like at Church hearing a good sermon or one on one with a brother!

This is, after all, one of the new ways of communicating. It doesn't justify not getting quiet and intimate with the Lord in the prayer closet or conversing in private or in public with family and brethren and non-Christian friends.

magine that a Christian excludes the book of Ma...

2012-05-22T15:17:45.798-04:00
magine that a Christian excludes the book of Malachi from his Bible, finding Malachi 1:11 to be grossly objectionable,
"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name is great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense is offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the LORD of hosts."

Hi Ana,

Thanks for stopping by. exactly what about Malachi 1:11 is " grossly objectionable"? Are you referring to the figure of speech of the sun rising and going down? If so, I don't see how this language is "grossly objectionable" (if in fact, that's what you had in mind.

Constantine: "II Maccabees teaches...

2012-05-22T12:09:23.529-04:00
Constantine:

"II Maccabees teaches prayers for the dead (12:45-46), [...]The conclusion to which we come is that the books of the Roman Catholic Apocrypha fail to demonstrate the characteristic marks of inspiration and authority."

Of the same mind as Greg Bahnsen, Matt Slick writes:

"Can anyone truly accept that money isn't offering for the sins of dead people? Such a superstitious and unbiblical concept has no place in Scripture". [http://carm.org/errors-apocrypha]

The glaring problem with this criticism:

The only way in which the content of 2 Maccabees referenced above, can be meaningfully characterized as "unbiblical", is if it is first excluded from the Bible, and then contrasted to those books which remain in the Bible. Otherwise, (obviously) if it is in the Bible, by definition, it is biblical, and must be interpreted as such.

Imagine that a Christian excludes the book of Malachi from his Bible, finding Malachi 1:11 to be grossly objectionable,

"For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name is great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense is offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the LORD of hosts."

And then justifies the exclusion by asserting that Malachi contains an unbiblical concept, contrary to the the witness of the New Covenant.

The point here being, that the same approach that governs the rejection of 2 Maccabees, if seriously applied to another book in the Bible, a portion of which a Christian has difficulty reconciling with the rest of Scripture, would result in rejection of that book as "unscriptural".

That was the case (daniel1212) by the grace of God...

2012-05-22T04:14:12.050-04:00
That was the case (daniel1212) by the grace of God. I have them, but they deleted them.

If there is a time for all things, as mentioned, a...

2012-05-21T12:44:42.378-04:00
If there is a time for all things, as mentioned, as long as one is fulfilling their responsibilities, the combox fuflfills one of the aspects of modern govt. education that is missing,i.e. disputatio, or learning how to argue and defend a position, much more the truth and generally becoming a better writer to boot.
Can it be abused? Does one find oneself wasting time in attempting to reason with ignoramuses or other sundry tarbabies, Romish or no, never mind gratifying one's vain ego?
Yes, but it is the sinful nature of man to abuse every good gift of God, not the nature of every good gift or even things indifferent.

cheers

More and more I see the wisdom in James White'...

2012-05-20T23:49:03.664-04:00
More and more I see the wisdom in James White's approach to combox wars. As you know, in short, his rule is: Don't. It's dumb. But if not we, then who shall vanquish the e-heretics? Quite the conundrum, eh Mr. Swan?
In all seriousness I appreciate this post. Pr. Sproul has hit on something important and your added thoughts are pretty well on the money.

TRUST THE HOLY SPIRIT. PRAY AS JESUS SAID TO THE ...

2012-05-19T23:53:49.966-04:00
TRUST THE HOLY SPIRIT. PRAY AS JESUS SAID TO THE FATHER FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT--HE SAID THAT HE WOULD NOT GIVE A SCORPION OR A STONE WHEN ASKED FOR THE HOLY SPIRIT! JESUS SAID THE HOLY SPIRIT WOULD TEACH US ALL THING FROM HIM/THE FATHER--AND THAT THE MESSIAH IS THE ONLY TEACHER! HE TOLD US TO WAIT UNTIL WE ARE CLOTHED WITH THE POWER FROM ON HIGH--AS THE APOSTLES IN ACTS AT PENTECOST AND LATER WITH AND WITHOUT VISIBLE FLAMES!! THE PROMISE IS FOR ALL--AND IS THE BASIC STUFF: "BAPTISMS" REFERRED TO AS WHAT WE NEED TO MOVE BEYOND... THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE GROUNDWORK. WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU WILL KNOW NOT TO TRUST SOME BOGUS STATEMENT AND RELY ON AUTHORITY THAT IS NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT. <3+WENDY--ONE WILL INSTEAD GO TO THE RIGHT SOURCE THAT JIVES WITH THE WORD OF GOD IN THE HOLY BIBLE PROCLAIMED BY THE CHURCH

I have seen that quote before about no evidence ab...

2012-05-19T23:47:54.997-04:00
I have seen that quote before about no evidence about being in Rome. The fact is that the Bible said Paul had not yet been in Rome when a church was already there--how does that make Paul a co-founder of the church in Rome as is claimed! I can only conclude that the church is founded "in SPIRIT" by Peter and Paul BY BEING FOUNDED ON THEIR TEACHING--or that they perhaps encouraged the church there though PAUL was not actually a founder... I would only go so far as that biblically. <3+Wendy

Just check with you guys if the German princes sup...

2012-05-19T07:48:23.715-04:00
Just check with you guys if the German princes support of Luther was more out of political expedience or religious convictions? Probably it is a mixture. But the weightage is on which side? Are there any reliable "neutral/unbiased" historic sources/church historian can throw some light on this?

Thanks.

BTW, there was a post awaiting your reply, but ...

2012-05-18T15:14:50.472-04:00
BTW, there was a post awaiting your reply, but evidently they even outlawed my ip address so that even their home page is blank and says "database error" (though i cleared the cookies).

I'll take a look when I get a chance. Keep in mind, if you were banned from CA, chances are you presented a good dose of truth.

d Arians are not mindless idiots I recent...

2012-05-18T15:12:37.413-04:00
d Arians are not mindless idiots

I recently finished some studies in this area, and would agree with you.

Lutherans consider the DC helpful,although non ...

2012-05-18T15:11:40.032-04:00
Lutherans consider the DC helpful,although non canonical, so do the Reformed consider them in the same manner?

I belong to a confessional Reformed Church. One of our confessions states (The Belgic Confession):

Article VI
The Difference Between the Canonical and Apocryphal Books

We distinguish those sacred books from the apocryphal, viz: the third and fourth books of Esdras, the books of Tobit, Judith, Wisdom, Jesus Sirach, Baruch, the Appendix to the book of Esther, the Song of the Three Children in the Furnace, the History of Susannah, of Bel and the Dragon, the Prayer of Manasseh, and the two books of the Maccabees. All of which the Church may read and take instruction from, so far as they agree with the canonical books; but they are far from having such power and efficacy that we may from their testimony confirm any point of faith or of the Christian religion; much less may they be used to detract from the authority of the other, that is, the sacred books.

While this may say this print, I don't recall ever hearing any statement from any apocryphal book in any of our church services.

Probably the only person to ever mention these books in my church was me when teaching the adult Sunday School.

Lutherans consider the DC helpful,although non ...

2012-05-18T12:19:47.863-04:00
Lutherans consider the DC helpful,although non canonical, so do the Reformed consider them in the same manner?

That's what I would mostly say, though teaching salvation by almsgiving (Tobit) and that the temple was destroyed before it was built and Nebuchadnezzar was king of Assyria (Judith) aren't particularly helpful.
That said, 2 Maccabees does not teach prayer to the dead. It does, however, disaffirm that it's inspired by God, so that's helpful in one sense and unhelpful in another.

Well, you got my involved in this forum (though i ...

2012-05-18T09:27:35.782-04:00
Well, you got my involved in this forum (though i was a member before) and after responding to attacks on evangelical faith by RCs and their incessant self promotion/exaltation, in less than 2 days after my usual and substantiated manner, i received

“Your account has been locked for the following reason:
anti-Catholic agenda

This change will be lifted: Never

(All the best, Catholic Answers Forums)

And the offending posts were deleted.

BTW, there was a post awaiting your reply, but evidently they even outlawed my ip address so that even their home page is blank and says "database error" (though i cleared the cookies).

Perhaps that's a leftover from the Inquisition.

Great find, James.

2012-05-16T18:41:10.184-04:00
Great find, James.

Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics

Hi James, I guess what that Lutheran by using Act...

Great post especially in an age of Machen's Wa...

Thanks James. Really beautiful quote.

A few other things in English like the following ...

Steelikat- Thanks for your comments. I'm ba...

I wasn't able to join the CARM bbs because I c...

Yes, of course, it is part of the gospel. "B...

"If you're interested in exactly what ...

That is quite a stretch Ana, as the O.T. speaks o...

Hi James, To clarify -- it is not my belief, as A...

Well, that may be so. Coming in here from time to ...

magine that a Christian excludes the book of Ma...

Constantine: "II Maccabees teaches...

That was the case (daniel1212) by the grace of God...

If there is a time for all things, as mentioned, a...

More and more I see the wisdom in James White'...

TRUST THE HOLY SPIRIT. PRAY AS JESUS SAID TO THE ...

I have seen that quote before about no evidence ab...

Just check with you guys if the German princes sup...

BTW, there was a post awaiting your reply, but ...

d Arians are not mindless idiots I recent...

Lutherans consider the DC helpful,although non ...

Lutherans consider the DC helpful,although non ...

Well, you got my involved in this forum (though i ...

Great find, James.