Showing posts with label transubstantiation. Show all posts
Showing posts with label transubstantiation. Show all posts

Monday, February 23, 2026

Luther Against Transubstantiation and Roman Catholics Using Him on the Real Presence

Roman Catholic apologists utilize Martin Luther's comments about the Real Presence of the body and blood of Jesus Christ in the Lord's Supper. His comments seem to suggest a strong point of unity with Roman Catholicism as well as a broad rejection of the views of many contemporary Protestants. He's portrayed as being on Rome's side. It's an attempt to cause cognitive dissonance aa a means to convert people to their side of the Tiber

I see their Luther's Real Presence argument as a clever way to corner many Protestants. They say, "you believe in sola scriptura? Look what your founder says about the body and blood of Jesus Christ!" Unfortunately for them... their argument suffers fatal flaws if viewed within their worldview. Using this argument places them in direct denial of Roman Catholic infallible authority.

Luther's seeming unity with Roman Catholicism disintegrates in two ways. First, Luther's opinion on transubstantiation demonstrates his lack of unity with Rome's infallible pronouncements on transubstantiation.  Second, Luther's broader comments on Rome's liturgical presentation of the Lord's Supper (the sacrifice of the Mass) demonstrate he wanted nothing to do with attending a Eucharistic presentation in a papal Roman Catholic church. 

In this entry, we'll first take a cursory look at what Rome says about transubstantiation and secondly, we'll look at what Martin Luther said about it. In a future entry, we'll dive into Luther's rejection of the sacrifice of the Mass.   

The Roman Catholic View of Transubstantiation, a Brief Primer
To be obedient to Rome, you are required to believe that which was pronounced by the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215:

His body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the forms of bread and wine, the bread and wine having been changed in substance, by God’s power, into his body and blood, so that in order to achieve this mystery of unity we receive from God what he received from us.

The Council of Florence (1431-1439) stated, "Substantia panis in corpus, substantia vini in sanguinem (Christi) convertitur" (the substance of bread is changed into the body of Christ and the substance of wine into his blood).

 This was reaffirmed after Luther's death by the infallible Council of Trent:

CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.

 CANON lI.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.

These statements were succinctly summarized in the authoritative Tridentine Creed of 1564:
I profess, likewise, that in the Mass there is offered to God a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead; and that in the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist there is truly, really, and substantially, the Body and Blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ; and that there is made a conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood, which conversion the Catholic Church calls Transubstantiation. I also confess that under either kind alone Christ is received whole and entire, and a true sacrament.
In this brief overview, notice Roman Catholicism makes no excuses, both dogmatically and in practice. It believes the bread and wine are no longer physically present in the Lord's Supper, "Transubstantiation means the change of the whole substance of bread into the substance of the Body of Christ and of the whole substance of wine into the substance of his Blood" as per the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Roman Catholics before and after the Council of Trent must wholeheartedly agree to transubstantiation to be considered faithful Roman Catholics and not subject to a severe anathema. 

Luther's View of Transubstantiation, a Primer
Here is a sampling of some specific quotes from Luther on transubstantiation. To summarize: the extant evidence shows he appears to have accepted it at first, then rejected it but allowed it to be held if one wanted to, then a short while later he rejected it as impious, blasphemous and anathema

Early on in the Reformation via a passing comment, Luther appears supportive of Roman Catholic transubstantiation. In 1519 he writes,
...[H]e gave his true natural flesh in the bread, and his natural true blood in the wine, that he might give a really perfect sacrament or sign. For just as the bread is changed into his true natural body and the wine into his natural true blood, so truly are we also drawn and changed into the spiritual body, that is, into the fellowship of Christ and all saints and by this sacrament put into possession of all the virtues and mercies of Christ... (LW 35:59).
Only a year later though he declares it to be an aspect of the Babylonian Captivity of the Church (1520), being under "Roman tyranny" (LW 36:28). He dubs it "the second captivity" (LW 36:28). Luther states:
Some time ago, when I was drinking in scholastic theology, the learned Cardinal of Cambrai gave me food for thought in his comments on the fourth book of the Sentences. He argues with great acumen that to hold that real bread and real wine, and not merely their accidents, are present on the altar, would be much more probable and require fewer superfluous miracles—if only the church had not decreed otherwise. When I learned later what church it was that had decreed this, namely the Thomistic—that is, the Aristotelian church—I grew bolder, and after floating in a sea of doubt, I at last found rest for my conscience in the above view, namely, that it is real bread and real wine, in which Christ’s real flesh and real blood are present in no other way and to no less a degree than the others assert them to be under their accidents. I reached this conclusion because I saw that the opinions of the Thomists, whether approved by pope or by council, remain only opinions, and would not become articles of faith even if an angel from heaven were to decree otherwise [Gal. 1:8]. For what is asserted without the Scriptures or proven revelation may be held as an opinion, but need not be believed. But this opinion of Thomas hangs so completely in the air without support of Scripture or reason that it seems to me he knows neither his philosophy nor his logic. For Aristotle speaks of subject and accidents so very differently from St. Thomas that it seems to me this great man is to be pitied not only for attempting to draw his opinions in matters of faith from Aristotle, but also for attempting to base them upon a man whom he did not understand, thus building an unfortunate superstructure upon an unfortunate foundation (LW 36:28-29).
True, Luther at this point does go on to allow someone to hold to transubstantiation if so desired, but only to allow the other possibility that someone holds the bread and wine are also still present: 
Therefore I permit every man to hold either of these opinions, as he chooses. My one concern at present is to remove all scruples of conscience, so that no one may fear being called a heretic if he believes that real bread and real wine are present on the altar, and that every one may feel at liberty to ponder, hold, and believe either one view or the other without endangering his salvation. However, I shall now set forth my own view (LW 36:30).
In presenting his view, Luther remains firm that the bread and wine are physically present:
Even so here, when the Evangelists plainly write that Christ took bread [Matt. 26:26; Mark 14:22; Luke 22:19] and blessed it, and when the Book of Acts and the Apostle Paul in turn call it bread [Acts 2:46; 1 Cor. 10:16; 11:23, 26–28], we have to think of real bread and real wine, just as we do of a real cup (for even they do not say that the cup was transubstantiated). Since it is not necessary, therefore, to assume a transubstantiation effected by divine power, it must be regarded as a figment of the human mind, for it rests neither on the Scriptures nor on reason, as we shall see (LW 36:30-31).
He declares transubstantiation to be a "a monstrous word and a monstrous idea" (LW 36:31). He clearly rejects it, placing him clearly at odds with Rome's pronouncements:
Therefore it is an absurd and unheard-of juggling with words to understand “bread” to mean “the form or accidents of bread,” and “wine” to mean “the form or accidents of wine.” Why do they not also understand all other things to mean their “forms or accidents”? And even if this might be done with all other things, it would still not be right to enfeeble the words of God in this way, and by depriving them of their meaning to cause so much harm.

Moreover, the church kept the true faith for more than twelve hundred years, during which time the holy fathers never, at any time or place, mentioned this transubstantiation (a monstrous word and a monstrous idea), until the pseudo philosophy of Aristotle began to make its inroads into the church in these last three hundred years. During this time many things have been wrongly defined, as for example, that the divine essence is neither begotten nor begets; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body. These and like assertions are made without any reason or cause, as the Cardinal of Cambrai68 himself admits (LW 36:31).

Perhaps they will say that the danger of idolatry demands that the bread and wine should not be really present. How ridiculous! The laymen have never become familiar with their fine-spun philosophy of substance and accidents, and could not grasp it if it were taught to them. Besides, there is the same danger in the accidents which remain and which they see, as in the case of the substance which they do not see. If they do not worship the accidents, but the Christ hidden under them, why should they worship the [substance of the] bread, which they do not see? .

 And why could not Christ include his body in the substance of the bread just as well as in the accidents? In red-hot iron, for instance, the two substances, fire and iron, are so mingled that every part is both iron and fire. Why is it not even more possible that the body of Christ be contained in every part of the substance of the bread? (LW 36:31-32)

...[I]t is not necessary in the sacrament that the bread and wine be transubstantiated and that Christ be contained under their accidents in order that the real body and real blood may be present. But both remain there at the same time, and it is truly said: “This bread is my body; this wine is my blood,” and vice versa. Thus I will understand it for the time being to the honor of the holy words of God, to which I will allow no violence to be done by petty human arguments, nor will I allow them to be twisted into meanings which are foreign to them. At the same time, I permit other men to follow the other opinion, which is laid down in the decree, Firmiter, only let them not press us to accept their opinions as articles of faith (as I have said above) (LW 36:35).

They come then to the profundities, babble of transubstantiation and endless other metaphysical trivialities, destroy the proper understanding and use of both sacrament and testament together with faith as such, and cause Christ’s people to forget their God—as the prophet says, days without number [Jer. 2:32] (LW 36:44-45).

On May 16, 1522 Luther wrote to Paul Speratus saying, 


The dispute about whether the body of Christ alone is present under the bread by virtue of the words, etc., is to be settled the same way. Judge for yourself whether there is any need to involve the ignorant multitude in these hair-splittings, when otherwise they can be guided by the sound and safe faith that under the bread there is the body of Him who is true God and true man. What is the use of wearying ourselves with the question how blood, humanity, Deity, hair, bones and skin are present by concomitance, for these things we do not need to know. These things neither teach nor increase faith, but only sow doubts and dissensions. Faith wishes to know nothing more than that under the bread is present the body, under the wine the blood of the Christ who lives and reigns. It holds fast to this simple truth and despises curious questions. 

In July 1522, Luther responded to written attack from King Henry VIII of England (who was still a Roman Catholic at this point) with detailed and vehement arguments that transubstantiation was false (LW 61:36-44). He laments that Christians are "forced to believe as a necessary article of faith that the bread and wine cease to be present after the consecration" (LW 61:30) and contrarily that "it is not necessary to believe that the bread and wine are transubstantiated" (LW 61:36) Luther admits "no article unless it is supported by clear Scriptures" (LW 61:38). "[W]hat Scripture asserts should be asserted in articles of faith, and what it does not assert should not be asserted but considered free. But it plainly calls the Sacrament itself "bread" (LW 61:38). In this treatise, that "freedom" to believe in transubstantiation morphed into his firm opinion that it was impious, blasphemous and anathema.

He makes a number of clear statements expressly denying transubstantiation:

[W]hich grammarian would be so insane as to understand or conclude from the saying "This is My body" that thing which is the bread, is transubstantiated? Who except the rabble of the Thomists, who have cause us to unlearn even grammar? (LW 61:38).

Therefore, my Paul stands undefeated against those futile transubstantiators and says, "The bread we break" (1 Cor. 10:16], and strikes them down with a double horn: first, that they can assert their arguments neither by reason nor by authority; second, that with their feeble explanations they can do nothing but beg the question most faultily, and at most what they accomplish is that it could be so, as they imagine, although they needed to prove both that it is done and that it is right, that it is so and must be so. For no one can doubt whether God can transubstantiate the bread, but they cannot show that He in fact does it (LW 61:42).

And so I can say that the body of Christ is in the Sacrament in such a way that the bread is preserved, just as the fire is in the iron with the substance of the iron being preserved... (LW 61:42)

And so we have this article which, although I did not examine it with any anxiety before, has now been quite abundantly confirmed by the Papists own assertions- that is, by their lies and stupidities and blasphemies- so that now we are utterly safe in saying that it is the merest invention of the impious and blind Thomists, whatever the bleat out about transubstantiation, and that one should hold firmly to the faithful words of God, where He says simply and purely in Paul that the bread that we break and eat is the body of Christ [1 Cor. 1016, 11:23-24]... Previously I posited that it does not matter at all if you think this or that way about transubstantiation, but now I judge from the clear reasons and most beautiful arguments of the assertor of the sacraments that it is impious and blasphemous if anyone says that the bread is transubstantiated, but catholic and pious if anyone says with Paul: "The bread that we break is the body of Christ." Let him be anathema who has said otherwise and has changed one jot or tittle 9cf. Matt. 5:18], even if it is Lord Henry, the new and exception Thomist (LW 61:44).

In Luther's 1523 treatise The Adoration of the Sacrament, he wrote:

The third error is that in the sacrament no bread remains but only the form of bread. Of course, this error is not very important if only the body and blood of Christ, together with the Word, are not taken away—though the papists have earnestly contended and still contend for this their new doctrine. They label as heretic anyone who does not agree with them that it is a necessary truth, that no bread remains there—that monastic fantasy buttressed by Thomas Aquinas and confirmed by the popes. But while they insist so strongly upon this, and that out of pure arbitrariness and without any foundation in Scripture, we shall defy them and hold to the contrary that real bread and wine are truly present along with the body and blood of Christ. We are glad to be labeled heretic by such imaginary Christians and naked sophists. For the gospel calls the sacrament bread. It says that the bread is the body of Christ. We shall stand by that. We are sufficiently certain, contrary to all the dreams of the sophists, that what the gospel calls bread is bread. If it deceives us, we shall take our chances (LW 36:287-288).

It was not for any good purpose that the devil let the papists retain the body and blood of Christ in the sacrament. On the contrary he has caused them on their commercial fairground to deal with Christ as the Jews dealt with him that night in Caiaphas’ house when he had been betrayed into their hands [Matt. 26:57–68]. There would not have been so many and such terrible sins if the sacrament had been entirely renounced, just as those who did not crucify Christ did not commit such great sins as the Jews did who seized him and put him to death (LW 36:288). 

In Luther's heated clashes with Zwingli, the later argued the logical outcome of the former's view was Rome's transubstantiation. Luther vehemently denied this. He stated in 1528,

Throughout the world universities have long been plagued by it, until they forced themselves to teach that in the sacrament no bread remains in essence, but only its form. This “identical predication of diverse natures” is untenable both in Scripture and in reason, i.e. the idea that two diverse natures should be identical. If the fanatics were not such ignorant logicians, they would have known how to handle this problem. It would have been worth talking about, and they could have left their useless flesh and Christ up in heaven, along with their other childish nonsense (LW 37:295).

Now, I have taught in the past and still teach that this controversy is unnecessary, and that it is of no great consequence whether the bread remains or not. I maintain, however, with Wycliffe that the bread remains; on the other hand, I also maintain with the sophists that the body of Christ is present. So against all reason and hairsplitting logic I hold that two diverse substances may well be, in reality and in name, one substance (LW 37:296).

Against this someone will object once more, “But you yourself declare that the wine remains wine in the new Supper. These words of yours make you a good papist who believes that there is no wine in the Supper.” I reply: This bothers me very little, for I have often enough asserted that I do not argue whether the wine remains wine or not. It is enough for me that Christ’s blood is present; let it be with the wine as God wills. Sooner than have mere wine with the fanatics, I would agree with the pope that there is only blood (LW 37:317).

Used now as part of the official Lutheran confessions of faith, in his Large Catechism of 1529, Luther wrote:

8 Now, what is the Sacrament of the Altar? Answer: It is the true body and blood of the Lord Christ in and under the bread and wine which we Christians are commanded by Christ’s word to eat and drink.

9 As we said of Baptism that it is not mere water, so we say here that the sacrament is bread and wine, but not mere bread or wine such as is served at the table. It is bread and wine comprehended in God’s Word and connected with it.

10 It is the Word, I maintain, which distinguishes it from mere bread and wine and constitutes it a sacrament which is rightly called Christ’s body and blood. It is said, “Accedat verbum ad elementum et fit sacramentum,” that is, “When the Word is joined to the external element, it becomes a sacrament.” This saying of St. Augustine is so accurate and well put that it is doubtful if he has said anything better. The Word must make the element a sacrament; otherwise it remains a mere element [Tappert, T. G., ed. (1959). The Book of Concord the confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church. (pp. 447–448). Mühlenberg Press].

 Used now as part of the official Lutheran confessions of faith, Luther's Smalcald Artilces of 1537 state:

As for transubstantiation, we have no regard for the subtle sophistry of those who teach that bread and wine surrender or lose their natural substance and retain only the appearance and shape of bread without any longer being real bread, for that bread is and remains there agrees better with the Scriptures, as St. Paul himself states, “The bread which we break” (1 Cor. 10:16), and again, “Let a man so eat of the bread” (1 Cor. 11:28) [Tappert, T. G., ed. (1959). The Book of Concord the confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church. (p. 311). Mühlenberg Press].

In 1545, Luther still affirms his rejection of transubstantiation. In Against the Thirty-Two Articles of the Louvain Theologists, Luther argues "18. Transubstantiation of the bread and the wine is taught without reason, yes, without the [authority of the] Word, by the mere vanity of the 'little masters'” (LW 34:355).

Finally, while not primary evidence, the Table Talk corroborates Luther's rejection of transubstantiation:  

No. 96: Rejection of Transubstantiation November 9, 1531. “In the sacrament of the altar Thomas invented transubstantiation. I think that the bread and wine remain, just as the water remains in baptism and just as the human voice remains when I preach. Yet it is in truth the power of God, as Paul calls it (LW 54:12).
Luther's Contemporary Opponents, a Primer
Unlike today's defenders of Rome, Luther's contemporary foes realized something was dangerously not right with Luther's rejection of transubstantiation. When the Roman Catholic controversialists brought up Luther's denial of transubstantiation, they intended to specifically document his heresy, particularly his assertion that the bread and wine were still present in the Eucharist. This is antithetical to many of the presentations of Rome's modern defenders: they ignore Luther held the bread and wine are still present and are happy to promote Luther's acceptance of the Real Presence. Here are a few examples of Luther's Roman Catholic contemporaries:

Johann Eck (1519)
...I say if the Bohemians are of the same mind as you, then they are of the same mind as they have always been. (Or does he deny that the Bohemians are heretics? I hear that he has been pouring out poison of this sort along with his friend Philipp Melanchthon.  “It is no heresy to disbelieve indelible character, transubstantiation and the like”: this is how the Wittenbergers argue, so that among them are no heretics, even though they say that in the holy sacrament of the altar one eats the element of bread, just as one does ordinary food!) Therefore, this foolish hunter confuses Bohemian and Catholic articles, and the rejected and the condemned. So it is certain that the Bohemians boast that in these articles, in which they dissent from the Catholic Church, they have Luther as their champion— and indeed that he is the most Hussite of them all. [Graham, M. Patrick (ed.). Luther as Heretic: Ten Catholic Responses to Martin Luther, 1518–1541 (p. 57). Pickwick Publications, an Imprint of Wipf and Stock Publishers. Kindle Edition]. 
Henry VIII (1521, Against Luther while still a Roman Catholic (help in composition by Roman Catholic Controversialists)
Luther takes a deal  of Pains to confute the Arguments of the Neoteries, by which they endeavored  to maintain and prove Transubstantiation, by philosophical Reasons, out of Aristotle's School; in which troubles himself than is requisite:  For the Church does not believe it, because they dispute it so to be; but  because She believed so from the Beginning, and  that  none should stagger about it, decreed that all  should so believe. They therefore exercise their Wit with philosophical Reasons, that they may be able to teach that no absurd Consequence can follow that Belief; or that the Change of Bread into a new Substance, does not necessarily leave, but take away the former. 

Luther says, 'This Doctrine of Transubstantiation, is risen in the Church within these three Hundred Years; whereas before, for above twelve Hundred Years, from Christ's Birth, the Church had true Faith:  Yet all this while was there not any mention made of this prodigious (as he calls it) word Transubstantiation. If he strives thus only about the Word, I suppose none will trouble him to believe Transubstantiation; if he will but believe, that the Bread is changed into the Flesh, and the Wine into  the Blood; and that Nothing remains of the Bread and Wine but the Species; which, in one Word, is the Meaning of those who put in the Word Transubstantiation. But after the Church decreed that to be true, (though this were the first time it should be ordained) yet if the Ancients did not believe the contrary, although none should ever think of that thing before; why should not Luther be obedient to the present Decree of the whole Church, as persuaded that this is revealed now at length to the Church, which was hidden before? For as the Spirit inspires where he is willing; so likewise he inspires when he pleases (Assertio septem sacramentorium, or in English, Defence of the Seven Sacraments, p. 242-244).

Johannes Cochlaeus (documenting the years 1521 and 1534), extracted from Luther's Lives: Two Contemporary Accounts of Martin Luther.

1521: But since in the opinion of many Aleander seemed to be stirred up against Luther more from envy and a desire for vengeance than by zeal for piety, and since he accomplished or managed very little through his orations, be they however frequent and vehement, then finally he excerpted about forty Articles from Luther’s book About the Babylonian Captivity, which had then recently been published. In these articles Luther had dared to reject, trample upon, and condemn not only the rites and sacraments of the Church, but even the laws of the Princes and any and all governmental arrangements of human beings. These were among the articles: ‘That the Seven Sacraments must be denied, and only three accepted for the time being; that Transubstantiation at the altar must be considered a human fiction, since it is based upon nothing in Scripture or in reason (p.82).

1545: About the Words of the Consecration, Cochlaeus responded as follows, among many other things: “Moreover, when Luther mocks us for fleeing to the Faith and the mind of the Church, he acts like an Apostate. I would gladly hear, in return, from which Scripture Luther or his Devil (who, he says, disputed with him over the Mass) can demonstrate that, when a Lutheran priest (who although he is baptized, still has not been legitimately initiated into Sacred Orders) in his new Evangelical Mass chants or speaks these words of Christ, ‘This is My Body,’ in a very loud voice, through this the Flesh and Blood come into the bread and wine. Where is this written? Luther and Cordatus are the biggest babblers you please, yet they keep silent and are mute on this question. Therefore, the Lutherans could have seen to what place the Devil was leading them through Luther, as long as he wished to admit nothing except that which was expressly stated in the Scriptures – namely, he was leading them into the sect of the Zwinglians or the Pighardians, who deny Transubstantiation; just as Luther too denies it, saying ‘The substance of the bread and wine remain the same after consecration as before it.’ Therefore, if there is not Transubstantiation there, which is a transmutation of the substances, nothing is achieved by the words of consecration; since the bread remains bread, and the wine, after just as before. Moreover, Cordatus namely poured out as many words as you please, this man who wishes in the cause of the Faith to admit or receive nothing beyond the Scripture; nevertheless, he does not indicate any Scripture which says that the flesh and blood of Christ are made by the words of Consecration, when they are pronounced at the altar; but not when they are said or chanted at another time, in the Passion or the Gospel reading or elsewhere; or, if the words are said over bread and wine, but not if they were said over stone and water or ale. Be bold here, Cordatus, you mighty boaster about Scripture, and clearly pass judgment on these things for me from the Scriptures. I charge you by the eternal Truth. But for as long as you Lutherans will not pass judgment on these matters, I will consider you pure Zwinglians and Pighardians, bread-eaters and wine-bibbers, since you will receive nothing outside of clear Scripture. But we believe most firmly, with undoubted faith, that Transubstantiation is achieved by the words of Consecration, that is, that from the substance of the bread and wine are created the body and blood of Christ. For even if we do not have a Scripture about this, nevertheless we have the belief and approbation of the Church, which has taught and accepted this from Christ and His Apostles up to the present time. For these sublime mysteries are not set out in public Scriptures, lest they be mocked by infidels, Pagans, Turks, and Jews; just as Christ ordered in Matthew 7, when he said ‘Do not give a holy thing to the dogs,’ etc.; as He added sayings of Paul, Dionysius, and Augustine in support of the same opinion, which it would take to long to quote (pp. 314-315).



Saint John Fisher (1469-1535)
In the discussion in David V. Bagchi, Luther's Earliest Opponents, p. 131-132. he mentions a number of Roman Catholic controversialists responding to Luther on transubstantiation: "Fisher, Powell, and More."' Bagchi states, 
The controversialists could safely have rested their case for transubstantiation entirely on arguments from authority. But Luther’s reliance on arguments from reason obliged them to follow suit, in case their hand appeared weaker than his. His chief argument for the bread’s continued existence after consecration had been the grammatical sense of the words of institution: “This is my body” (Mark 14:22 and parallels) must mean “This bread is my body.” Fisher, Powell, and More followed Henry’s argument that the Scriptures often give transformed entities the names of their previous forms. The sentence “Aaron's rod swallowed the rods of the magicians” (Exod. 7:12) refers to the rods when serpents; similarly, Christ’s words at the wedding feast at Cana, “Draw some out” (John 2:8), appear from the context to refer to water but in fact refer to the water now become wine. “This is my body” must therefore mean “This flesh is my body.”
John Fisher penned Defensio regiae assertionis contra Babylonicam Captivitatem. This Roman Catholic controversialist responded to Luther's rejoinder to Henry VIII, including a lengthy reply against Luther on transubstantiation. The original text can be found here. This treatise was translated into English in 2024, Defense of the Royal Assertion Against Luther's Babylon Captivity by a pro-Roman Catholic publisher.  Included is an entire chapter entitled, "The Substance of the Bread Does Not Remain with the Most Holy Body of Christ." Fisher painstakingly defends transubstantiation while giving accolades to King Henry (who would go on to execute him). For Fisher, Luther's rejection of transubstantiation shows he is liar and an insulter, trying to "enchant and fill the ears" of his readers (p.105). He "does violence to Christ's words" (p. 109). Luther has "fallen into intellectual darkness" (p.111). He takes "such a license in the Scriptures that he can twist, add, take away, invert, and do whatever he pleases with them, according to the mere madness of his own brain" (p. 114). "There is no danger in disbelieving Luther, while no one can escape a manifest judgment of his own soul for having ignored the same Fathers [of the Lateran Council]" (p. 117).  Fisher ends the chapter by declaring Luther anathema (p. 137). Fisher appeals to the Lateran Council against Luther on Transubstantiation:
So that is why, at the Lateran Council, 1,315 Fathers came together from the entire Christian world for a declaration of this truth, and these very same men considered that Christ’s words should be explained in such a manner that we would believe that no bread remained with the body; nor is there the least suspicion that the same Fathers had their focus turned anywhere else than to the pursuit of this truth. For my part, since the matter stands thus, unless Christ in vain promised the help of the divine spirit for the clarification of such doubts, or unless the very Spirit of Truth fooled so many orthodox Fathers — although he was so devoutly beseeched by them — there’s no doubt whether this decree which the same synod of so many saintly Fathers at the Lateran did pronounce is much more surely trustworthy for any Christian, than any of Martin Luther’s creations, no matter how artfully crafted they may have been. Furthermore, if anyone should perhaps seek out the words of that same council, here is how it handed over what was to be believed by the faithful on this matter: “There is one Universal Church of the faithful, outside of which there is absolutely no salvation. In which Jesus Christ is the very priest and sacrifice, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species [appearance] of bread and wine; with the transubstantiated change of bread into the body and wine into the blood, by the divine power.” That is what the council said, so Luther is not right when he relates Christ’s words, saying: “When he says, ‘this,’ He means, ‘this bread...is my body’,” given that a synod of so many Fathers affirms that the bread and wine are transubstantiated by the divine power into the body and blood of Christ (pp. 116-117).

Conclusion
In summary, Luther denied transubstantiation as impious, blasphemous and anathema, placing him succinctly against Roman Catholic dogma both then and now. If Roman Catholics want to champion Luther as a defender of the Real Presence of Christ in Lord's Supper, they do so at the expense of utilizing a theological position their infallible authority considers anathematized. Luther's position clearly contradicts Roman Catholic dogmatic beliefs. Luther's earliest Roman Catholic foes understood this! They did not champion him as someone on their side for his belief in the Real Presence. They were not at all ecumenical like Luther was in 1519: "I permit every man to hold either of these opinions, as he chooses." Rome's modern-day defenders, in accordance with their alleged infallible authority, should not be ecumenical to Luther's view either.  

An interesting aspect of Luther's view of the Lord's Supper is to keep in mind that neither today's Roman Catholic nor modern-day Zwinglians should claim him as their own. The original Zwinglians chastised Luther for finding the Real Presence of Christ in the Lord's Supper while the papists criticized him for finding the bread and wine to be physically present. Luthers view is therefore neither Rome's view nor the Zwinglian view. He doesn't fit with either group.

The Bottom line: Rome's defenders are not allowed by their infallible magisterial authority to pick and choose aspects of the Eucharist to promote ecumenical unity or "gotcha!" pop-apologetics. Their tactic seems quite contrary to one of the cardinal points of Roman Catholic authority, that Rome has spoken and the case is closed.  Rome has spoken about transubstantiation, but her modern defenders don't care to consistently apply those infallible pronouncements to Luther's view of the Real Presence of Christ's body and blood along with the bread and wine in the Lord's Supper!



Addendum #1: What Luther thought of the Real Presence and Attending the Papal Mass

... [W]e say to someone who would approach the Sacrament: “It is not enough that you believe the body and blood are present, but it is necessary [to believe] also that it is for your good, etc.” The pope denies this. I believe that I receive the body and blood to this end: that the body and blood should avail for my consolation, etc. “That is false,” says the pope. “It is enough that you obey the Church and do it once a year, that you possess a historical faith and the intention not to sin in the future or to impose an obstacle [to sacramental grace], etc., when you receive the Sacrament, saying, ‘I will not steal and rob anymore.’ ” They speak like fools. This same argument was made to me by the Cardinal at Augsburg, who condemned me for saying that faith is necessary for one who would approach the Sacrament. Afterward, the Parisian [theologians] and Leo’s bull condemned the same thing, saying likewise that it is enough that you perform the work [of the sacrament] and have the intention [not to sin again] (LW 58:336).


Addendum #2 Wikipedia Reveals the Lack of Roman Catholic Unity on the Real Presence
I don't normally recommend anything Wikipedia puts forth on history. However, as of the writing of this blog post, their entry on Transubstantiation provides a statistical analysis of how disunified Roman Catholic are about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Wiki adds and edits its entries at a whim, so it could disappear any time!). Scroll down to the section entitled, "General belief and doctrine knowledge among Catholics." Here is an interesting excerpt:

A 2019 Pew Research Report found that 69% of United States Catholics believed that in the Eucharist the bread and wine "are symbols of the body and blood of Jesus Christ", and only 31% believed that, "during Catholic Mass, the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus". Of the latter group, most (28% of all US Catholics) said they knew that this is what the Church teaches, while the remaining 3% said they did not know it. Of the 69% who said the bread and wine are symbols, almost two-thirds (43% of all Catholics) said that what they believed is the Church's teaching, 22% said that they believed it in spite of knowing that the Church teaches that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ. Among United States Catholics who attend Mass at least once a week, the most observant group, 63% accepted that the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ; the other 37% saw the bread and wine as symbols, most of them (23%) not knowing that the Church, so the survey stated, teaches that the elements actually become the body and blood of Christ, while the remaining 14% rejected what was given as the Church's teaching. The Pew Report presented "the understanding that the bread and wine used in Communion are symbols of the body and blood of Jesus Christ" as contradicting belief that, "during Catholic Mass, the bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Jesus".

From a quick look, Wiki's facts come from this 2019 link: Just one-third of U.S. Catholics agree with their church that Eucharist is body, blood of Christ. This article posits, "Seven in-ten U.S. Catholics believe bread, wine used in Communion are symbolic." I certainly realize statistics do not represent absolute truth and any analysis should be subjected to a close scrutiny of how the data was obtained. However, it's been my experience with Roman Catholics in real time, face to face, that the overwhelming majority are clueless as to what their church teaches.


Addendum #3: Helpful Explanations of the Contemporary Lutheran view of the Real Presence of Christ’s Body and Blood in The Lord’s Supper and the Rejection of Transubstantiation
The Real Presence of Christ’s Body and Blood in The Lord’s Supper: Contemporary Issues Concerning the Sacramental Union by John F. Brug (June 1998)

Wels Q&A: " We reject transubstantiation because the Bible teaches that the bread and the wine are still present in the Lord's Supper (1 Corinthians 10:16, 1 Corinthians 11:27-28). We do not worship the elements because Jesus commands us to eat and to drink the bread and the wine. He does not command us to worship them."

Sunday, April 24, 2016

Very interesting article on the real presence in the Eucharist in the early church

"This article will examine the writings of Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian of Carthage, Irenaeus of Lyons, Justin Martyr, Ignatius, and a contribution from Origen in order to show that the ancient church never believed, taught or even conceived any doctrine like the real presence dogma."  Brian Culliton, at his "onefold" wordpress blog

https://onefold.wordpress.com/early-church-evidence-refutes-real-presence/


Wednesday, May 12, 2010

The Morning Star of the Reformation

A popular Roman Catholic tactic is to claim Luther was a doctrinal innovator. Since Luther’s doctrinal beliefs are without precedent, his claims should be rejected (or so the argument goes).

An immediate observation is that this merely assumes the Scriptural evidence is in favor of Catholicism. However, we will dispense with the Scriptural matter, as that is not our focus, and proceed to the matter of the post-Scriptural historical record; the idea that Luther was doctrinally novel with respect to church history suffers from a serious defect—it is irreconcilable to historical facts. The Reformation, bursting forth as it did in the sixteenth century, was part of a tradition of earlier reformers who, like many of the prophets of the Old Testament, were crushed under the obstinacy of the reigning religious authorities.

This essay will sketch a brief biography of one such early reformer, John Wycliffe, with particular attention paid to a few of his more significant doctrinal positions. As will be shown, Wycliffe’s experience with the corruption of the Catholic Church led him to some of the same moral and doctrinal conclusions Luther would endorse some 130 years later. Indeed, that “John Wycliffe and his followers anticipated many of the key-doctrines of Protestantism has never been in dispute.”1 Some of these moral and doctrinal conclusions include: a preference for the authority of Scripture over and against papal primacy, a move toward Sola Fide, a rejection of transubstantiation, and a concern for a vernacular translation of Scripture.

Wycliffe’s Early Life, Education at Oxford and Political Career

John Wycliffe (c. 1324-1384), who is perhaps best known for inspiring vernacular translations of Scripture, was an Oxford educated professor who strongly denounced the moral and spiritual failings of fourteenth century Catholicism. The similarities in his work and life to later Protestant reforms have earned him the exemplary title “Morning Star of the Reformation.”

His early life is shrouded in mystery. This is due not only to Wycliffe’s lack of autobiographical materials, but also to the posthumous treatment the early reformer received at the Council of Constance (1414-1418). Here Wycliffe was officially declared a heretic and his body ordered to be exhumed and burned with his works. The embarrassment caused by this event to his staunchly Catholic family was of no small consequence, and all traces of his life and work were subsequently erased from his town of origin.2

What we do know is that Wycliffe was born c. 1324 somewhere in Yorkshire, England. He later came to Oxford, eventually earning not only a doctorate, but widespread recognition for his rigorous logic and scholarly learning.3 His interests, however, were not limited to academia; he left Oxford in 1371 to serve the interests of British royalty, first as a diplomat, and later as a polemicist.4

His service to the crown left him disillusioned with the political process, which, at the time, was deeply wedded to the affairs of the Church. To help finance his war with Milan, Pope Gregory XI had demanded 100,000 florins from England, in addition to a regular tribute already being paid. Wycliffe initially participated in these negotiations and refused to bow to Gregory’s demands, but his uncompromising stance eventually had him removed from the discussions. After his removal, his fellow diplomats were bribed with “prestigious and lucrative offices in the English Church,” and they signed a treaty giving enormous concessions to Gregory.5

This marked the end of Wycliffe’s direct participation in the political process and he returned to Oxford to write and preach about the various reforms he thought the Church so desperately needed. Since Wycliffe targeted the hypocritical opulence of the clergy, he earned friends within the ranks of royalty, who wished to use his theological arguments for their own ends and devices. This, however, earned him the attention of the Gregory XI, who eventually condemned many of his criticisms and repeatedly attempted to have him brought to trial.6

Wycliffe’s View of Scripture as the Final Authoritative Norm

In the same year the Great Schism (1378-1417) began, Wycliffe published The Truth of Sacred Scripture. This treatise contained principles quite similar to the later Reformation principle of Sola Scriptura. Wycliffe’s view of authority had developed such that he “sought to ground all his reforms in the authority of Scripture, arguing that it is the highest authority for every Christian. It provides the test of all Church councils and of the claims of religious experience.”7

The Great Schism not only raised Wycliffe’s view of Scripture, but served to further diminish the legitimacy of the papacy in his eyes:
At this time, his position also grew more radical. The scandal of the Great Schism encouraged this, and he began teaching that the true church of Christ is not the pope and his visible hierarchy, but rather the invisible body of those who are predestined to salvation—a point he drew from Saint Augustine of Hippo. Although it is impossible to know exactly who has been predestined, there are indications that many ecclesiastical leaders are in truth reprobate. Towards the end of his life, Wycliffe declared that the pope was among those who were probably reprobate.8
Heiko Oberman has also argued that Wycliffe held to the scholarly concept of Tradition I.9 (Tradition I has been summed as: “Scripture was the sole source of revelation; that it was the final authoritative norm of doctrine and practice; that it was to be interpreted according to the regula fidei.”10) Whether Tradition I squares completely with the later doctrine of the Reformers, Wycliffe’s views, especially in light of his writings on the papacy, can safely be claimed as much closer to the later Reformers and incompatible with the then prevailing view of Roman primacy.11

Anticipation of Sola Fide

Although Wycliffe’s doctrine precedes Luther’s in many ways, the connection is less clear with Sola Fide.12 However, as Bruce Shelley explains, Wycliffe can still be said to have at least anticipated the Reformer’s later articulation:
The long-range significance of Wyclif’s teaching on dominion lies in its link with the Reformation. It was the English reformer’s way of emphasizing the spiritual freedom of the righteous man. He is a professor of ‘a dominion founded on grace.’ ‘God gives no lordship to his servants without first giving Himself to them.’ Every man, therefore, priest or layman, holds an equal place in the eyes of God. This personal relation between a man and God is everything; character is the one basis of office. The mediating priesthood and the sacrificial masses of the medieval church are no longer essential. Thus Wyclif anticipates Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone. Both men destroy the medieval barriers between the individual and God.13
The Rejection of Transubstantiation

As he neared the end of his life, Wycliffe began to question the doctrine of Transubstantiation.14 He came to rejected it because it was:
a denial of the principle manifested in the incarnation. When God was joined to human nature, the presence of the divinity did not destroy the humanity. Likewise, what takes place in communion is that the body of Christ is indeed present in the bread, but without destroying it. In a ‘sacramental’ and ‘mysterious’ way, the body of Christ is present in communion. But so is the bread.15
Here is where Wycliffe was most controversial, as his views contradicted the Fourth Lateran Council (1215). Many then dismissed him as heretical, although he still officially died in communion with the Church. As mentioned above, it was not until the later Council of Constance that he was condemned.

A Translation for the Commoner

Like Luther, Wycliffe was concerned with providing a translation of Scripture that the common person could read. While the extent to which he was directly involved in the process is unknown, “we need have no qualms about referring to the Wycliffite Bible, for it was under his inspiration and by his friends and colleagues that the work was done.”16

Gonzâles explains Wycliffe’s rationale for a commoner’s translation and the subsequent inspiration it gave his followers:
According to Wycliffe, it is true that Scripture is the possession of the church, and that only the church can interpret the Bible correctly. But this church that owns Scripture is the body of all who are predestined, and therefore the Bible ought to be put back in their hands, and in their own language. It was because of this claim that Wycliffe’s followers, after his death, saw to it that the Bible was translated into English.17
While Wycliffe’s translation was not based on Greek or Hebrew manuscripts (but the Latin Vulgate), the spirit of Luther’s later vernacular translation is still quite apparent.

_____________________________
1 Arthur Dickens, The English Reformation (University Park, PA: Pennsylvania State University Press, 1991), 46.

2 William Estep, Renaissance and Reformation (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans Publishing, 1986), 59.

3 Justo Gonzâles, The Story of Christianity, Volume I: The Early Church to the Dawn of the Reformation (New York: HaperCollins Publishers, 1984), 346.

4 Ibid., 346.

5 Estep, Renaissance and Reformation, 63.

6 Ibid., 61.

7 Anthony Thiselton, Hermeneutics: An Introduction (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2009), 125.

8 Gonzâles, The Story of Christianity, 347.

9 Heiko Oberman, The Harvest of Medieval Theology (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1967), 371-378.

10 Keith Mathison, The Shape of Sola Scriptura (Moscow, ID: Canon Press, 2001), 85.

11 Cf. John Wycliffe, On the Truth of the Holy Scripture, trans. Ian Christopher Levy (Kalamazoo, MI: Medieval Institute, 2001).

12 Cf. Alister McGrath, Iustitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification, 2nd ed. (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2002), 180-187.

13 Bruce Shelly, Church History in Plain Language (Word Publishing, 1995), 226.

14 Ralph Keen, The Christian Tradition (Lanham: MD, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers, 2008), 176-177.

15 Gonzâles, The Story of Christianity, 347.

16 F.F. Bruce, History of the Bible in English (Cambridge: The Lutterworth Press, 1979), 13.

17 Gonzâles, The Story of Christianity, 347.

Wednesday, February 17, 2010

Index of recent argumentation regarding the Real Presence as monophysitism

I'd be lying if I said I didn't expect to provoke a lot of anger and vexation over my recent post: Is transubstantiation a Monophysite doctrine? But it was so much fun to write! And it's been even more fun to watch:
1) how fired up certain interlocutors became
2) how bad their arguments generally were
3) how little they actually interacted with the fundamental point - that Jesus, as both God AND man, is not multilocational but is, rather, always in one place at one time
4) how it made bedfellows out of practitioners of otherwise fairly hostile systems, such as Scott Windsor, loyal son of Rome, and Edward Reiss, fairly conservative Lutheran.

This index post is to serve as a collective reference point to see all the conversation that has gone down over this point.
First came Steve Hays' Anti-Incarnational sacramentalism.
I'd had my post written for some time but was waiting for a good time to post it, and figured that I should go ahead and strike while the iron was hot. So then came my post, which has accumulated more than 120 comments.

Scott Windsor added Transubstantiation Question, and I interacted a lot there.
Later he posted Transubstantiation Question II, and I interacted some there as well. Read these if you want a lot of strawmen and a failure on Windsor's part to even understand what I was saying.

And then you can see Matthew Bellisario post barely-relevant quotations from Thomas Aquinas over at his post: For Those Confused About Transubstantiation..., in which combox I interacted some.
As one philosopher (apocryphally) said: if you speak nonsense in Latin, you can write many books; if you speak nonsense in Saxon, you are found out at once.

Perry Robinson aka Acolyte4236 interacted extensively with me in the combox of my post, starting here.

Edward Reiss jumped in with How Jesus' body--even before the resurrection, is not "Just like ours", then Calvin's framing of the question about the Incarnation--i.e. Jesus' body, is flawed, as if I appealed to Calvin or care particularly what he had to say about this issue if it's irrelevant. Find a great deal of interaction there between us.
Later, Jesus as a "Spiritual reality", since it really seems that the monophysitism proponents in this discussion have a hard time admitting that the spiritual is real. Strange for someone who confesses to be a Christian, but you know.
Later, If St. Peter can do it, Jesus' miracles don't tell us anything special about Jesus as a man..., in which he attempts to assert that Jesus' status as God-man makes Him more buoyant, more cooperative with the surface tension of water than my status as regular man makes me.

TurretinFan had One More Response to Edward Reiss.

Finally, Steve Hays had numerous helpful things to say in his posts:
The Styrofoam Jesus, in which he mocks the buoyancy argument.
A Lutheran's unresponsive response
Lutheran cartoons
The Heisenberg compensator
The Real Presence of the Big Mac, a specific response to some of the comments from Perry Robinson, Acolyte4236 in the combox of my post.
Why Lutherans deny the empty tomb, a reductio on the Lutheran view Edward Reiss has been defending (and by extension, the Roman view).

Overall, a very interesting and satisfying exchange. It's good to be Reformed. Sort of funny how I'll be teaching through Eric Svendsen's curriculum on the Lord's Table starting pretty soon in my Sunday School class.

Friday, February 12, 2010

Is transubstantiation a Monophysite doctrine?

CrimsonCatholic and Perry Robinson participated a few months ago in a fairly technical but somewhat interesting discussion at David Waltz's blog.
CrimsonCatholic made a very interesting statement:

The key feature of Chalcedonian theology is that Christ's nature is exactly the same as ours, so what happens to the human nature in Christ happens to everyone who is "in Christ Jesus" (to use St. Paul's term) by grace, including the sharing of the divine glory.

I'd like to ask a few questions, if we're going to take this consistently with the rest of our theology.
So Christ's nature is exactly the same as mine. My nature is human. Part of being human (as opposed to being divine) is to be limited to a particular physical location at any one time, is it not? My body cannot be in more than one place at any one time. That's obvious.

Now, Christ Himself, at the time of His Incarnation, took upon Himself a human nature and a physical body. At the time of His Resurrection, His body became glorified and immortal; He doesn't necessarily have blood anymore, but He retains flesh and physical tangibility, among other properties. He can perhaps walk through walls, or perhaps not; John 20 simply says, "when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, 'Peace be with you.'" Maybe He created a key and let Himself in; maybe He knocked and they let Him in; maybe He passed through the door via "teleportation"; the text does not tell us. Obviously He can perform miracles such as walking on water and perhaps passing through walls, disappearing right in front of two disciples at dinnertime on the road to Emmaus, etc, but we never see Christ in more than one place at any one time.

CCC 1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.

1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession."

1379 The tabernacle was first intended for the reservation of the Eucharist in a worthy place so that it could be brought to the sick and those absent outside of Mass. As faith in the real presence of Christ in his Eucharist deepened, the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

1412 The essential signs of the Eucharistic sacrament are wheat bread and grape wine, on which the blessing of the Holy Spirit is invoked and the priest pronounces the words of consecration spoken by Jesus during the Last Supper: "This is my body which will be given up for you. . . . This is the cup of my blood. . . ."

1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).

On any given Sunday, or really most any day of the week, Mass is performed at thousands of churches across the globe. On any given Sunday morning, to be sure, the Eucharistic host is transubstantiated in multiple locations, at the same time. How well does this match with the conception of Christ's body's substance? It is supposed to be of human substance, yet here it displays a trait better assigned to divinity, that of omnipresence. Christ's human body, it turns out, is NOT "exactly the same as ours", as I don't think CrimsonCatholic has ever been at two or more places at once. I know I haven't, much as I'd like to be; I could get a lot more accomplished!

And the situation seems to be even worse than that. Take a look at this from the Catholic Encyclopedia:
On the contrary, He continues His Eucharistic Presence even in the consecrated Hosts and particles that remain on the or in the ciborium after the distribution of Holy Communion.
Thus the red candle/light that one often sees perpetually lit on the altar of a Roman church - one or more transubstantiated hosts are still there. The real and substantial body of Jesus Christ is enclosed there. In many hundreds or thousands of churches across the world, simultaneously.

So, taking the doctrine that CrimsonCatholic has expressed and applying it consistently across the board, we run into a serious snag in the doctrine of the Eucharist. It would seem that, if transubstantiation is true, then the RC position leads to a denial of the true human nature of Christ, because the substantial, real human body of Christ is simultaneously in thousands of different places, thus applying a divine trait to Christ's human nature. Not Chalcedonian at all, then; more like Monophysite.