Catholic Answers Discussion Asks: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther???

Here's an interesting read from the Catholic Answers "Non-Catholic Religions" forum: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Normally in a cyber-discussion like this in a Roman Catholic cyber-venue, the typical answer is "No, because Luther was a Nazi, killed the peasants, was a drunkard, believed one could sin a thousand times a day, and taught that Christ committed adultery with Mary Magdalene, he took books out of the Bible..." and so on...  Some of that sort of thing does pop up in this discussion. What fascinated me was that a retired Roman Catholic priest with a strong ecumenical approach defended Rome's more recent kindness towards Luther (see any of the posts in the discussion by Don Ruggero).  I sat back and kept out if it for a while, and then posted the following:

Jul 25, '16, 11:14 pm

TertiumQuid  Regular Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 908 Religion: Reformed

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? I find this entire discussion fascinating, and I'm grateful for the opinions expressed. I've been in online dialog with Catholics on Martin Luther for over 10 years. Here's what I've encountered: 1. Older Catholic scholarship (pre-Lortz) is typically hostile to Luther. 2. Newer Catholic scholarship (post-Lortz) is less hostile to Luther. 3. Current Catholic scholarship is ecumenical and willing to be gracious towards Luther. 4. The majority of online Catholics participating in forums like these typically revert to the position of older Catholic scholarship (pre-Lortz). The reason why I think there's such a variety of Catholic opinions toward Luther is that at Trent, Luther was never condemned by name, so there is no dogmatic judgment by which Catholics are bound in regard to him personally. Some time back, Jimmy Akin went through Exsurge Domine (the bull condemning Luther's teachings). Akin pointed out that the bull was not infallible, so there's no help there in establishing an official position. So basically: you all have the freedom within Catholicism to express yourselves about Martin Luther. Enjoy that freedom.

And then, the following took place:

Jul 25, '16, 11:47 pm

Peter J  Forum Master   Join Date: April 7, 2008 Location: Constitution Party Posts: 14,596 Religion: Catholic

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by TertiumQuid  I find this entire discussion fascinating, and I'm grateful for the opinions expressed. I've been in online dialog with Catholics on Martin Luther for over 10 years. Here's what I've encountered: 1. Older Catholic scholarship (pre-Lortz) is typically hostile to Luther. 2. Newer Catholic scholarship (post-Lortz) is less hostile to Luther. 3. Current Catholic scholarship is ecumenical and willing to be gracious towards Luther. 4. The majority of online Catholics participating in forums like these typically revert to the position of older Catholic scholarship (pre-Lortz). The reason why I think there's such a variety of Catholic opinions toward Luther is that at Trent, Luther was never condemned by name, so there is no dogmatic judgment by which Catholics are bound in regard to him personally. Some time back, Jimmy Akin went through Exsurge Domine (the bull condemning Luther's teachings). Akin pointed out that the bull was not infallible, so there's no help there in establishing an official position. So basically: you all have the freedom within Catholicism to express yourselves about Martin Luther. Enjoy that freedom. But why would it be about Luther to begin with? It's really about teachings. Anyhow, I trust the magisterium.

xx

Jul 25, '16, 11:54 pm

TertiumQuid  Regular Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 908 Religion: Reformed

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by Peter J  But why would it be about Luther to begin with? It's really about teachings. Anyhow, I trust the magisterium.  This thread is entitled, "Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther???" By its mere existence, it demonstrates the overwhelming obvious: that Catholics have opinions about Martin Luther, and even yours is an opinion (that the teachings rather than the person should be discussed). Enjoy your freedom.

xx

Jul 26, '16, 12:07 am

Peter J  Forum Master   Join Date: April 7, 2008 Location: Constitution Party Posts: 14,596 Religion: Catholic

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by TertiumQuid  This thread is entitled, "Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther???" By its mere existence, it demonstrates the overwhelming obvious: that Catholics have opinions about Martin Luther, and even yours is an opinion (that the teachings rather than the person should be discussed). Enjoy your freedom. Fair enough: a thread on the internet does have the aforementioned title. (Bang gavel.)  But seriously, I'm not really saying Don't talk about him. Just that he isn't "what it's all about". Heck, you pointed out that even the 16th century condemnations don't mention him.

xx

Jul 26, '16, 8:49 am

Son of Niall  Regular Member   Join Date: June 2, 2013 Posts: 1,672 Religion: Catholic

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by TertiumQuid  I find this entire discussion fascinating, and I'm grateful for the opinions expressed. I've been in online dialog with Catholics on Martin Luther for over 10 years. Here's what I've encountered: 1. Older Catholic scholarship (pre-Lortz) is typically hostile to Luther. 2. Newer Catholic scholarship (post-Lortz) is less hostile to Luther. 3. Current Catholic scholarship is ecumenical and willing to be gracious towards Luther. 4. The majority of online Catholics participating in forums like these typically revert to the position of older Catholic scholarship (pre-Lortz). It would be wise to move beyond 'online discussions' to gather insight into how Catholics feel about Luther. What you oftentimes encounter here are Trad Catholics and non-Trad Catholics. 2PT3 was a case in point.

xx

Jul 26, '16, 9:49 am

TertiumQuid  Regular Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 908 Religion: Reformed

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by Son of Niall  It would be wise to move beyond 'online discussions' to gather insight into how Catholics feel about Luther. What you oftentimes encounter here are Trad Catholics and non-Trad Catholics. 2PT3 was a case in point. To clarify: by "online discussions" these interactions with Catholics (specifically on Luther) have included pro-Catholic forums, anti-Catholic forums, blogs, e-mail exchanges, etc. I've interacted with anonymous laymen as well as more well-known Catholic apologists. Exactly how do you propose I move beyond these interactions "to gather insight into how Catholics feel about Luther"? What is the method you suggest in this path of wisdom you're describing?

xx

Jul 26, '16, 10:49 am

Son of Niall  Regular Member   Join Date: June 2, 2013 Posts: 1,672 Religion: Catholic

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by TertiumQuid  Exactly how do you propose I move beyond these interactions "to gather insight into how Catholics feel about Luther"? What is the method you suggest in this path of wisdom you're describing? Turn off the computer. Walk outside without a device (first, get out your pajamas). Talk to people (you'll spot them right away, they have bodies like ours). End of lesson.

xx

Jul 26, '16, 10:58 am

TertiumQuid  Regular Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 908 Religion: Reformed

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by Son of Niall  Turn off the computer. Walk outside without a device (first, get out your pajamas). Talk to people (you'll spot them right away, they have bodies like ours). End of lesson. Interesting conundrum that someone without a body is giving me advice to speak to someone with a body in order to arrive at the correct conclusion on a particular issue. Keep in mind: I do talk to Catholics in person- but these cyber-discussions attract people who want to talk about certain issues and can at times have knowledge on certain issues (like Luther and the Reformation). On the other hand, I have typically not come across the same with Catholic "bodied" people. Perhaps that's your point: most (or many) Catholic people out in the tangible world don't have an opinion or care about Luther one way or other.

xx

Jul 26, '16, 11:07 am

Son of Niall  Regular Member   Join Date: June 2, 2013 Posts: 1,672 Religion: Catholic

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by TertiumQuid  Interesting conundrum that someone without a body is giving me advice to speak to someone with a body. Keep in mind: I do talk to Catholics in person- but these cyber-discussions attract people who want to talk about certain issues and have knowledge on certain issues. On the other hand, I have typically not come across the same with Catholic "bodied" people. Perhaps that's your point: most Catholic people out in the tangible world don't have an opinion or care about Luther one way or other. ....or is it perhaps a guy with an anti-Catholic blog (followed by what? Five people?) needs to keep coming back to CAF trying to portray himself as something he is not? Many Protestants, Lutherans included "in the tangible world" also don't have an opinion about Luther. Why? Perhaps because it is not 1517 anymore. I would rather listen to an old retired priest like Don Ruggero, who has far more experience in the 'tangible world' than someone trying to gather a cyber-crowd.

xx

Jul 26, '16, 11:10 am

TertiumQuid  Regular Member   Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 908 Religion: Reformed

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by Son of Niall  ....or is it perhaps a guy with an anti-Catholic blog (followed by what? Five people?) needs to keep coming back to CAF trying to portray himself as something he is not? Many Protestants, Lutherans included "in the tangible world" also don't have an opinion about Luther. Why? Perhaps because it is not 1517 anymore. I would rather listen to an old retired priest like Don Ruggero, who has far more experience in the 'tangible world' than someone trying to gather a cyber-crowd. Ah, OK, now I get it. It's personal for you... against me. I wondered what was going on. You may have the last word.... or feel free to insult me again. Edited to add: I've had over a million hits to my blog, and I don't advertise, or sell anything. Frankly, I write for me, so if those 5 people move on, that's fine with me.

xx

Jul 26, '16, 11:13 am

Son of Niall  Regular Member   Join Date: June 2, 2013 Posts: 1,672 Religion: Catholic

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? Quote: Originally Posted by TertiumQuid  Ah, OK, now I get it. It's personal for you... against me. I wondered what was going on. You may have the last word.... or feel free to insult me again. No ones insulting you dude. But if you wish to interact with Catholics, maybe you should not spend so much time insulting them on your 'blog'. Just sayin'.

xx

Jul 26, '16, 11:15 am

Eric Hilbert  Moderator   Join Date: September 30, 2009 Location: Non-Catholic Religions Posts: 7,751 Religion: Catholic

Re: Should Catholics Praise Martin Luther??? The OP please. __________________ Forum Rules and guidelines

The comments were indeed personal. Now, with Catholic Answers, I've learned to not use the alert system (I've gotten infractions for doing that, and I've been suspended for doing that). Had I defended myself, I could have also easily been giving an infraction or a suspension. I'm not exactly sure how the moderation works over at CA, but I know many of the rules do not apply to me.