Since this was a discussion from over a year ago, I will not be allowing any comments on this blog post.
- April 17th, 2013 at 19:54 | #7Since we did not have a complete listing of the books in the Bible until the Councils of Hippo in AD 393 and the Council of Carthage in AD 397, it is of most importance to see how the early church fathers (whom were taught by the Apostles themselves) were instructed in issues which pertain to our faith and salvation.Failure to read the teaching’s of the early church fathers leads to a teaching that important history essentially ended with the closure of the N.T. and picked up again with the sixteenth century Protestant reformation and we thus now have a “lost” fifteen hundred years.How important are the teaching’s of the early church fathers? In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Saint Paul exhorted Christians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” Saint Paul also says in 1 Cor. 11:2 to “maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.”The Apostolic traditon included all aspects of “how one ought to behave in the Church.” The Apostles instructed the early church fathers, “What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also”, 2 Tim 2:2.It is of upmost importance to learn not only the Word of God, but also the writing’s of the early church fathers because they were taught by the Apostles themselves.Failure to do so, leads to about 40,000 christian denominations since the reformation. And, they all claim to be right. God is not the author of confusion.
- April 19th, 2013 at 16:55 | #35Lloyd I. Cadle :
Since we did not have a complete listing of the books in the Bible until the Councils of Hippo in AD 393 and the Council of Carthage in AD 397, it is of most importance to see how the early church fathers (whom were taught by the Apostles themselves) were instructed in issues which pertain to our faith and salvation.Careful here: according to Irenaeus, Jesus was more than fifty years old when He died. Irenaeus claimed this information came from those who knew the apostles.So. simply because someone claims that something comes from the Apostles, this does not mean it’s true.
- April 19th, 2013 at 17:02 | #36In 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Saint Paul exhorted Christians to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” Saint Paul also says in 1 Cor. 11:2to “maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.”
The Apostolic traditon included all aspects of “how one ought to behave in the Church.” The Apostles instructed the early church fathers, “What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also”, 2 Tim 2:2.
It is of upmost importance to learn not only the Word of God, but also the writing’s of the early church fathers because they were taught by the Apostles themselves.
Failure to do so, leads to about 40,000 christian denominations since the reformation. And, they all claim to be right. God is not the author of confusion.Even though sola scriptura does not deny that there was a period of inscripturation in which the word of God was oral, Roman apologists typically use 2 Thessalonians 2:14-15, John 20:30, and John 21:25 in defense of the Catholic understanding of Tradition. These verses are offered as proof of an oral tradition functioning during the New Testament period, and therefore prove the existence of Rome’s concept of Tradition. Catholic apologists never explain why the notion of a period in which the gospel was oral necessarily means God intended extra-biblical revelation to be passed on via Tradition. They simply conclude that if at some time God’s word was oral, God intended more than what was inscripturated.The Catholic assumption in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 is that the unwritten traditions referred to are different than those which were written. Such cannot be proven from this verse. The Catholic must be pressed to prove that both categories contain different information. 2 Thessalonians 2:14 speaks of the gospel, not doctrines like papal infallibility, indulgences, or the assumption of Mary. If these Traditions indeed exist, the act of producing them should be an easy task. However, Rome’s apologists can only point to highly debatable vague inferences from Scripture on such doctrines, further impaired by any lack of infallible biblical definition from the papacy. Note what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:5, after writing on the man of lawlessness, Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? The content being told matched that being written.Those Roman Catholics using 2 Thessalonians 2:15 whose views imply partim-partim must be pressed to produce what they claim to have. If they claim the use of church history as that which provides proof for their particular extra-biblical dogmas, let these peculiar dogmas be traced through two thousand years of history. Such dogmas like the assumption of Mary and papal infallibility find their journey back through the pages of history meet dead ends long before they arrive in the first century. - April 19th, 2013 at 17:06 | #37Lloyd I. Cadle :
@Abby #8 Hi Abby –
After an arduous and methodical study of early church history and the teaching’s of the early church fathers it is painfully clear that neither Luther, Calvin or any of the others of one of the some 40,000 Protestant denominations go by the teaching’s of the early church fathers in their teaching’s in things pertaining to doctrine and practice.It is “painfully clear” to me that Roman Catholics often play loose and fast with church history. For instance:In the popular Catholic work, “Not By Scripture Alone: A Catholic Critique of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura,” appeals are made to the church fathers as proof for Tradition as another equally authoritative source of divine revelation. For instance, Patrick Madrid cites Basil of Caesarea stating, “Of the beliefs and practices whether generally accepted or enjoined which are preserved in the Church, some we possess derived from written teaching; others we have delivered to us in a mystery by the apostles by the tradition of the apostles; and both of these in relation to true religion have the same force “(On the Holy Spirit, 27). Madrid states, “Basil’s appeal to an authoritative body of unwritten apostolic Tradition within the Church is frequent in his writings.” Was Basil referring to an unwritten apostolic Tradition that held contents like the Mary's assumption or papal infallibility, passed down from the apostles? Was Basil the recipient of unwritten God-inspired Traditions, passed down from the apostles, able to infallibly decide between disputing parties? Was Basil simply referring to Tradition as interpretation of revelation, or the development of Tradition?Many of the Church fathers cited by Catholic apologists did embrace a form of tradition that was independent of Scripture (like Papias, Tertullian, Epiphanius, John Chrysostom, Augustine and Basil the Great). What Basil and these others meant in no way supports Madrid’s position. Basil, in using the term tradition is describing mysteries of the Christian faith that were allegedly communicated in an unwritten form. These refer to liturgical rites of practices like baptism or the Eucharist. Basil was not teaching two sources of infallible revelation, with Tradition functioning similarly to scripture, but rather referred to a tradition of ecclesiastical practices or customs. Most often, doctrine was not in view. After discussing Basil and other Early Church Fathers, the great patristic scholar J.N.D. Kelly noted, “Indeed, all the instances of unwritten tradition lacking Scriptural support which the early theologians mention will be found, on examination to refer to matters of observance and practice (e.g. triple immersion in baptism; turning East for prayer) rather than of doctrine as such, although sometimes they are matters (e.g. infant baptism; prayers for the dead) in which doctrine is involved.”Madrid shuffled Basil around just enough so that one is left unsure of what exactly Basil held to. Madrid did not define what contents make up Tradition for either himself or Basil, or even if they together believe the same content of Tradition. Basil though did define the contents of the Tradition he was speaking of. William Webster points out, “Basil’s teaching primarily had to do with customs and practices such as triple immersion in baptism and turning to the East in prayer, practices of secondary importance.”
- April 19th, 2013 at 17:16 | #38Thanks for commenting, James, and thank you for the work you have done in defending Martin Luther against the attacks of Roman polemicists.
- April 19th, 2013 at 17:20 | #39You keep giving me links to websites where you are getting your information. You need to start reading books and materials on the teachings of the early church fathers. If you do that, you will see what I am telling you is the truth.Some of the links were to things I’ve written. I’ll gladly respond to any concerns you have to anything I’ve written in those links.In regard to the “early church fathers” I have a book for you to read:A Treatise on the Right Use of the Fathers in the Decision of Controversies Existing at This Day in Religion by John Daillé (Philadelphia: Presbyterian Board of Publication, 1856)Read this book, then get back to this discussion. I’ll gladly interact with you on the contents.Here’s an excerpt from the book on how two contemporaries and friends have two different opinions on an important subject:Epiphanius maintains against Aerius,of whom he ranks among the Heresiarchs, that a bishop, according to the Apostle Paul, and the original institution of the office itself, is more than a priest: and this he proves in many words, answering all the objections that are made to the contrary. If you only read the passage, I am confident that when you have done, you would not hesitate to swear that what he has there delivered, was the general opinion of all the doctors of the Church; it being very unlikely that so great and so renowned a prelate would so positively have denied the opinion which he disputed against, if any one of his own familiar friends had also maintained the same. Yet for all this, Jerome, who was one of the principal lights of our western Church, and who lived at the same time with Epiphanius, who was his intimate friend, and a great admirer of his piety, says expressly, “that among the ancients, bishops and priests were the same; the one being a name of dignity, and the other of age.” That it may not be thought that this fell from him in discourse only, he there undertakes to prove the same at large, alleging several passages of Scripture on this subject; and he also repeats the same thing, in two or three several places of his work; whereby it evidently appears that even positions quite contradictory to the opinions which have been delivered and maintained by some of the Fathers, and proposed in whatever terms, have notwithstanding been sometimes either maintained, or at least tolerated, by some others of no less authority.Jerome himself has severely criticised Rufnnus, and condemned many of his opinions as most pernicious and deadly; yet we do not anywhere find that he was ever accounted a heretic by the rest of the Fathers. But we shall have occasion hereafter to consider more at large similar examples; and shall only at present observe, that if those books of Jerome, which we mentioned a little before, should have chanced to be lost, every man would then assuredly have concluded from Epiphanius, that no doctor of the ancient Church ever held, that a bishop and a priest were one and the same thing in their institution.Who now, after all this, will assure us, that among so many other opinions as have been rejected here and there by the Fathers, and that too in as plain terms as those of Epiphanius, none of them have ever been defended by some of the learned of those times? Or, is it not possible, that they may have held them, though they did not write in defence of the same? Or may they not perhaps have written also in defence of them, and their books have been since lost ? How small is the number of those in the Church, who had the ability, or at least the will, to write ! And how much smaller is the number of those whose writings have been able to secure themselves against either the injury of time or the malice of men!It is objected against the Protestants, as we have observed before, that Jerome commends and maintains the adoration of relics: but yet he himself testifies, that there were some bishops, who defended Vigilantius, who held the contrary opinion; whom he, according to his ordinary rhetoric, calls ” accomplices in his wickedness.”*Who knows now what these bishops were, and whether they deserved any such usage at Jerome’s hands or no? For the expressions which he uses against them, and against their opinions, are so full of gall and enmity, that they utterly take away all credit from his testimony. But we have insisted long enough upon this particular, and shall therefore forbear to instance any further in others.As it is therefore impossible to discover exactly, out of the Fathers, what have been the sense and judgment of the ancient Church,—whether taken universally or particularly, or whether the Church is taken for the whole body of believers, or for the prelates and inferior clergy only,—I shall here conclude as heretofore, that the writings of the ancients are altogether insufficient for proving the truth of any of those points which are at this day controverted amongst us.
- April 19th, 2013 at 17:23 | #40Nicholas :
@jamesswan #36
Thanks for commenting, James, and thank you for the work you have done in defending Martin Luther against the attacks of Roman polemicists.Thanks for sharing my links in this discussion.JS - April 24th, 2013 at 14:52 | #41@jamesswan #39 The writings of the Early Church Fathers are not inspired. There is no guarantee that the Fathers expressed everything and only those things that God wanted expressed or that everything in their writings is without error.The Fathers did make mistakes. They also disagreed with each other on things pertaining to substance.That being said, we are talking about a consensus here of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers, on such major issues as the appeal to tradition, the Trinity, the 73 books of the Bible (not the 63 that Luther wanted), Apostolic tradition, Baptism (including baptismal regeneration and infant Baptism), the real presense of the Body and Blood, Confession, etc.Sola scriptura was never taught as a consensus of the Early Church Fathers. Neither were many other doctrines by the Protestant denominations.Because of a lack of appeal to the consensus of the writings of the Early Church Fathers, you have a reformation mess, whereas almost anything is allowed.The two sources that you cite are Protestant sources. Since Protestant’s as a whole are not in agreement with the teachings of the consensus of the Early Church Fathers, why should I believe their mess, where they pull some of the minority views of the Fathers out of context to try to make it sound Protestant?The fact is this; the post reformation teachings are not in agreement with the consensus of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers on most things pertaining to doctrine and practice.That is the big picture here.
- April 25th, 2013 at 17:09 | #42Hi Lloyd,Before I spend the time responding to you, could you either affirm or deny if you are a Roman Catholic, or are on your way to becoming a Roman Catholic? If not, do you ascribe to any particular tradition? If so, which one?I ask this because recently I spent some time interacting with someone who sounded very Roman Catholic, only to discover the person claimed to be “closer to Catholic than Protestant” and was picking and choosing which things they liked from each tradition. In other words, it’s very hard to interact with a person not committed to a particular tradition, but rather uses their private judgment to pick what they want to from wherever they want to, all the while criticizing me for being a Protestant.JS
- April 25th, 2013 at 21:34 | #43@jamesswan #42 Hi Jamesswan,I can assure you that I will not be like the person that you mentioned above (going back and forth between Catholic and Protestant theology). If a person is commited to going with the tradition of the Early Church Fathers, the only two traditions you can choose from are either Orthodox or Catholic.It is interesting to note that there are Eastern Rite churches within the Catholic church, of which Pope Francis has a real fondness for. In fact, many in both traditions say that the Orthodox are the Eastern Lung, and the Catholics are the Western Lung of the Christian church.Anyway, just a little background; my brother was a non-denominationl Christian for about 23 years. He started an in-depth study of the Early Church Fathers, and in his studies attended a Coptic Orthodox church and became an expert in church history. Believe me on this, very few folks would ever want to debate him on church history. He eventually became Coptic Orthodox. So, that inspired me to study Early Church history, the Orthodox tradition and the Roman Catholic tradition (including reading all of the Catholic Catechism) and many other resources. Over the last couple of years, I have really been studying the Early Church Fathers.Some of the things that I really like about the teachings of the Early Church Fathers is their no-nonsense stance on the seriousness of sin. The Early Church Fathers were not what we would call politically correct. They flat out taught that if you practiced the sins like in Gal. 5 or 1 Corth. 6, you would end up in hell. They had a passion for Christ and a holiness that would put all of us to shame.Another doctrine that the Early Church Fathers had that my brother really said changed his life was Confession. He mentioned that he doesn’t even struggle with the sins that he used to because of his monthly confession to his Father. I humbly ask you in a respecful way, how many Christian folks would be watching porn on the internet if they were honest and had to confess this horrible sin to a priest? But, they do not realize that God is watching and judging their lustful sin.Because of the lack of preaching the law forcefully, truthfully and biblically, many folks have a false security of their salvation, and a light view of sin, and, unfortunately many will end up in hell. That is what the Bible, tradition and what the Apostles taught the Early Church Fathers.My wife and I want to be held accountable for our sins in Confession and I want my kids in Confession too.If you ever get a minute or two, look at some of the reasons that Frances Beckwith became a Catholic. He described it as having more tools in the toolbox to live for Christ on a daily basis. Afterall, you can go to Mass everyday, if you choose to. Same with the Orthodox.With me and my family it would be that, and sticking with the Bible, tradition and the teachings of the Early Church Fathers.Peace!
- April 26th, 2013 at 09:01 | #3First, my apologies to Rev. Dr. David P. Scaer, because many of the comments left under his blog post, while related, are not on topic to what he’s posted, and some of those comments I have left. He certainly has every right to shut this down.Second, in regard to my previous questions to Mr. Cadle, I appreciate his taking the time to share some of his personal journey with me. That being said, it is certainly curious that he did choose not not answer such simple questions. The choices he leaves are between some sort of Orthodoxy or some form of Romanism. Since it appears to be up to me to follow the clues given, one particular clue stands out above the others: “If you ever get a minute or two, look at some of the reasons that Frances [sic] Beckwith became a Catholic.” I happen to be very familiar with Dr. Beckwith’s “Return to Rome” book which documents his apostasy and return to the Roman church. Based on that clue, I’m leading towards the conclusion that Mr. Cadle has likewise made a fallible and personal choice to become a member of the Roman church. If this is incorrect, it would be up to Mr. Cadle to set straight.Third, the categories of discussion presented by Mr. Cadle run a wide spectrum, reminiscent of someone setting a new fires once the first few are put out, and then starting the same fires again. For instance, the topic of Luther, which eventually led me to this discussion has been abandoned. The discussion surrounding “tradition” with 2 Thes. 2:14-15 has faded into the past. The “40,000” denominations discussion has faded away. A large majority, if not the great majority of comments I’ve posted have been ignored. Now I notice Paul and the Judaizers is the recent fire. I mention this merely to show the inherent futility of intricate discussions without focus in a comment box.Fourth, if I am correct that Mr. Cadle has joined some sort of sect in communion with Rome, there are a number of areas in which historical double standards are in play. Mr Cadle appears to be fond of locating specific Roman doctrines in the early church at the expense of others. For instance, today’s Romanists love citing Matthew 16 to establish the infallibility of the Bishop of Rome, yet the early church speaks quite strongly against such an exegesis. The Roman church says Mary was immaculately conceived and later assumed into heaven, yet the early church certainly isn’t in unity on this “dogma” of Romanism. Purgatory and indulgences in the early church? Nope. Another later addition. Mr Cadle wants to argue “the post reformation teachings are not in agreement with the consensus of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers on most things pertaining to doctrine and practice,” while appearing to be completely certain the Rome of today looks like the early church. Well, it doesn’t, which is why Newman’s development hypothesis is so important to the survival of Romanism. Lloyd can’t have it both ways.Fifth, Mr. Cadle points to some sort of consensus of the early church on a 73 book canon, but this is simply historically inaccurate. There were at least two major traditions in the church on the extent of the canon, and this right up until Trent. In fact, a very respectable group of Romanists at Trent argued against the larger canon Mr. Cadle says had consensus in the early church. He also argues against sola scriptura as the consensus of the early church, yet this topic, if taken on in a detailed manner, has quite a number of voices in the early church previous to the Reformation testifying to the Scriptures as the sole infallible authority for the church. Anyone interested in a comprehensive study should secure the 3 volume set, Holy Scripture, The Ground and Pillar of Our Faith by Webster / King. These 3 volumes have gone virtually unanswered by Rome’s defenders.Sixth, my recommendation of the Webster / King set will probably be met with the same dismissal that my previous book suggestion was met with from Mr. Cadle- that such books are from a “Protestant source.” That response is nothing else than fear, for if Rome’s claims are true, it should be relatively easy to go through the sources I mentioned and show their error. Earlier Mr. Cadle mentioned looking at Beckwith’s work. Well, why? He’s a “Roman source.” I don’t have the same fear of books though Mr. Cadle appears to have. I actually purchased Beckwith’s “Return to Rome” and I, along with some of my other friends have gone through it and showed it’s blatant distortions and errors. I’ll gladly list them, along with the page reference in Beckwith’s book.My apologies for such a lengthy post. The bottom line, at least to me, is that Mr. Cadle appears to be somewhat of a recent convert to Romanism and is filled with zeal and the desire to argue for her. The simple truth is, none of need trust Mr. Cadle’s interpretation of Rome, because each Romanist is a fallible interpreter of Rome and her history. Why is Lloyd’s version of Rome and church history accurate, and that of say, Gerry Matatics is not? Or Robert Sungensis? Or some liberal on the Catholic Answers forum?” All of these Romanists claim to speak as interpreters of doctrine and history for Rome, but say different things.Regards,JS
- April 26th, 2013 at 13:53 | #4@jamesswan #3 There is not a consensus among the Early Church Fathers for “Sola Scriptura”, and I think that you know it. The Early Church Fathers clearly taught Apostolic Succession and Tradition along with the Word of God.The Early Church Fathers (by consensus) went with the “deuteroncanonical” books listed in Septuagint, which included the seven books taken out at the time of the Reformation. These books were approved at the Councils of Hippo in AD 393 and The council of Carthage in AD 397. Up until that point all they had was Traditon and Apostolic succcession.The Early Church Fathers also had a majority consensus on such doctrines as the Councils (I don’t have the time to list them here), Baptism, the Real Presence, Mary as the Mother of God (as the Orthodox have in their liturgy as “Theotokos”) and Mary as ever virgin and Confession.The above is a consensus of the Early Church Fathers. The Protestants may be able to point to a minority quote here and there for some of their doctrines, but not a majority consensus of the above doctrines by the Early Church Fathers.I like to point out that some Protestants like to quote St. Augustine because that is all that they have for a few quotes here and there for some of their positions. Unfortunaely, they can only use about 10% of his quotes, because that is all that they have to cling to. Even at that, St. Augustine was in agreement with about 90% of the teachings of the Early Church Fathers.The big picture here is that if one wants to go by the teachings (majority consensus) of the Early Church Fathers, he or she would have to become either Orthodox or Roman Catholic.Clearly, post Reformation church bodies are not in agreement with the Early Church Fathers in any of the major doctrines listed above.
- April 26th, 2013 at 15:09 | #5Mr. Cadle,In regard to your previous comment, you’re now repeating yourself. I know you believe these things, but you do so (if in fact you are member of the Roman church) with blatant double standards in regard to theological history as I stated above (I’m repeating my self as well).Perhaps others have the tolerance for such double standards, but I certainly do not. “Consensus” in the early church is wishful thinking. In order to demonstrate this once more, consider the following question:“When the Council of Nicea convened, around 318 (by one count) bishops attended. Could a Roman Catholic representative point me to a single bishop at Nicea who believed what you believe de fide? That is, was there a single bishop in attendance who believed, for example, in transubstantiation? Purgatory, as defined by Rome today? Indulgences? The thesaurus meritorum? Immaculate Conception? Bodily Assumption? Papal Infallibility? If these things have been defined de fide, are we to believe that the gospel has ‘changed’ since that time, if, in fact, these things were not defined as part of the gospel at that time?”In other words, Mr. Cadle, you need to first apply your own standards to your own Romanism before trying to take apart any particular Christian theology you disagree with. If your own argumentation works against your own position, your argumentation is faulty.Each subject you raise from the early church is debatable as to its alleged “unanimous consent.” As Dr. White has stated,“The grand myth of Roman Catholic dogmatics (enshrined in her own statements), is the idea of the “unanimous consent of the Fathers.” Outside of monotheism, I do not believe you could create a ‘unanimous consent’ based upon the currently existing historical record for any doctrine, any belief, without engaging in ‘tradition editing,’ that is, without picking and choosing which sources you will allow into your “unanimity.” Obviously, a serious, open-eyed examination of the patristic corpus reveals wide divergences of viewpoint, just as any examination of the current theological literature reveals the same phenomenon. Only conservative Roman Catholics seem to labor under the idea that since they know their church has been around for two thousand years, and the Pope has always been the Pope, etc., then there must be some kind of unified body of doctrinal belief that looks just like…them! The selective reading of patristic sources is the inevitable result.”But, don’t take Dr. White’s word for it. Consider the following from a Roman Catholic scholar on consensus in regard to interpretation:“When one hears today the call for a return to a patristic interpretation of Scripture, there is often latent in it a recollection of Church documents that spoke at times of the “unanimous consent of the Fathers” as the guide for biblical interpretation.(fn. 23) But just what this would entail is far from clear. For, as already mentioned, there were Church Fathers who did use a form of the historical-critical method, suited to their own day, and advocated a literal interpretation of Scripture, not the allegorical. But not all did so. Yet there was no uniform or monolithic patristic interpretation, either in the Greek Church of the East, Alexandrian or Antiochene, or in the Latin Church of the West. No one can ever tell us where such a “unanimous consent of the fathers” is to be found, and Pius XII finally thought it pertinent to call attention to the fact that there are but few texts whose sense has been defined by the authority of the Church, “nor are those more numerous about which the teaching of the Holy Fathers is unanimous.” (fn. 24) Joseph A. Fitzmyer, Scripture, The Soul of Theology (New York Paulist Press, 1994), p. 70.Now, before you simply restate the same thing again, please answer the question about Nicea above in regard to the current Roman church. I say the question proves your double standards in regard to history. Prove me wrong.JS
- April 26th, 2013 at 19:41 | #6@jamesswan #5 Regarding the Real Presence, The Early church Fathers interpreted these passages literally. 1 Cor 10:16-17; 11:23-29 and especially Jn 6:32-71.Your own guy, Protestant historian of the early Church J.N.D. Kelly writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood” (Early Christian Doctrines, 440.)Here are some of the Early Church Fathers that believe in the Real Presence: St Ignatius of Antioch, St. Justin Martyr, St Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian of Carthage, St. Hippolytus of Rome, Origen of Alexandria, St. Cyprian of Carthage, The Council of Nicaea I (It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters (i.e., priests) though neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer (the Eucharistic sacrifice) should give the body of Christ to them that do offer (it) (Canon 18 (A.D. 325). St Aphrahat the Persian sage, St Cyril of Jersualem, St Ambrose of Milan, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. Augustine of Hippo and the Council of Ephesus.The Sacrifice of the Mass: The Church Fathers shared this faith in the sacrificial character of the Eucharist. Again, your guy Kelly says this, “The Eucharist was regarded as the distinctively Christian sacrifice. It was natural for early Christians to think of the Eucharist as a sacrifice.” Here are some of the Early Church Fathers to uphold this view, Didache, A.D.50, St Ignatius of Antioch, St. Justin Martyr, St Irenaeus of Lyons, St. Cyprian of Carthage, St. Serapion of Thmuis, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Gregory of Nazianz, St. Ambrose of Milan, Sth. John Chrysostom, St. Augustine of Hippo and St. Sechnall of Ireland.To be Continued…….. Sometimes this gets deleted before I get it posted.
- April 26th, 2013 at 21:05 | #8@jamesswan #5 Continued…..This is way too much work. I am not cutting and pasting off of a computer website here, but I am typing out of books on my desk.The Early Church Fathers believed in praying for the dead. Jews, Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox all believe in praying for the dead even if it is articulated in different ways in different communities. Here are some Early Church Fathers that prayed for the dead; Early Christian Inscription (Christian Inscription 34, A.D. 150), Acts of Paul and Thecla, AD 160, St. Abercius of Hierapolis, AD 190, Martyrdom of Peretua and Felicity, AD 203, Tertullian of Carthage, AD 218, St. Cyprian of Carthage, AD 252, Lactantius, (Divine Institutes 7:21) AD 307, St Cyril of Jerusalem, AD, 350, St Gregory of Nyssa, Ad 382, St John Chrysostom AD 402, and St. Augustine of Hippo, AD 402.Here is a quote from non other than C.S. Lewis. In his Letters to Malcom: Chiefly on Prayer, he writes: “Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not bread the heart if God said to us, “It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter tinto the joy”? Should we not reply, “With submission, sir and if there is no objection. I’d rather be cleaned first.” “It may hurt, you know” — “Even so, sir.”I don’t have the time to continue, at least for the time being. I have more than made a case for the teachings of the Early Church Fathers not being in agreement with post Reformation denominations. Aren’t you Reformed? Aren’t you a Protestant? Yet you are on this website hand in hand with those that you are not even in agreement with in doctrine and practice (if you are Reformed).Among Christians in the World, some 75% are either Orthodox or Catholic. And they agree on about 94% of doctrine. The other 25% are Protestant, and they are divided all over the place on doctrine and practice.There is a reason as to why when you tell folks that you are studying the Early Church Fathers, they usually respond with, “Well, you will either become Orthodox or Catholic.” Because they teach the majority consensus of the Early Church Fathers, as handed down to them from the Apostles.I am out of here on this issue.
- April 26th, 2013 at 21:54 | #10Hello Mr. Cadle,You seem intent on a monologue, and you also appear not to be intent on truly evaluating the claims of Rome fairly by applying the same standards to Rome that you’re hoisting on others. This refusal to actually engage the points I’ve placed before you strongly suggests you can’t. If you can, you certainly haven’t demonstrated it. The simple fact of the matter is that you can’t consistently argue that “the big picture here is that if one wants to go by the teachings (majority consensus) of the Early Church Fathers” someone would have to become a Roman Catholic, when in fact what Rome believes today on many important issues can’t be found in the early church. Your argument refutes your own position. I’m leaving Orthodoxy out of this, because it appears to me you’re a Roman Catholic. If Nicholas is correct, that you’re simply cut-and-pasting from Catholic Answers, I’m going to just add that as one more piece of evidence that you’re a fairly recent Roman convert.That being said, let’s look at something you’ve posted that demonstrates the sort of thing I think you overlook as Roman Catholic in regard to squaring it with Roman Catholicism:“Your own guy, Protestant historian of the early Church J.N.D. Kelly writes: “Eucharistic teaching, it should be understood at the outset, was in general unquestioningly realist, i.e., the consecrated bread and wine were taken to be, and were treated and designated as, the Savior’s body and blood” (Early Christian Doctrines, 440.)”A good friend of mine (and co-blogger) has presented a compelling argument (summarized below) which demonstrates the historical revisionism that goes into viewing history as a Roman Catholic in regard to this statement from Kelly.The Council of Trent teaches the following:CANON I.-If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that He is only therein as in a sign, or in figure, or virtue; let him be anathema.CANON II.-If any one saith, that, in the sacred and holy sacrament of the Eucharist, the substance of the bread and wine remains conjointly with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and denieth that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the Body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the Blood-the species Only of the bread and wine remaining-which conversion indeed the Catholic Church most aptly calls Transubstantiation; let him be anathema.CANON III.-If any one denieth, that, in the venerable sacrament of the Eucharist, the whole Christ is contained under each species, and under every part of each species, when separated; let him be anathema.These canons teach that both the bread and wine become not just the body of Christ, but the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, and no longer remain bread and wine. In other words, each element (bread and wine) becomes the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ.Whatever Kelly means by Eucharistic realism, there is no explicit consensus evidence during the first 800 years of the church that the bread becomes not just the body of Christ, but the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, and no longer remains bread. There is no consensus evidence during the first 800 years of the church that the wine becomes not just the body of Christ, but the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, and no longer remains wine.Certainly some of the fathers appeal to the metaphor of the bread being the body and cup being the blood. You’ll find some fathers who insist that this relationship is more than just a symbol, but consists of a symbol with power. You’ll find those that refer to a spiritual presence. What you won’t find though is the explicit points laid out by Trent. Show me someone from the early church that says that after consecrated by a priest, the bread is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ and the wine is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ. If you can find one, the next task is to show the “consensus” that teaches exactly what Trent states.Note the following metaphors from Ignatius:You, therefore, must arm yourselves with gentleness and regain your strength in faith (which is the flesh of the Lord) and in love (which is the blood of Jesus Christ).Greek text: Ὑμεῖς οὖν τὴν πραϋπάθειαν ἀναλαβόντες ἀνακτίσασθε ἑαυτοὺς ἐν πίστει, ὅ ἐστιν σὰρξ τοῦ κυρίου, καὶ ἐν ἀγάπῃ, ὅ ἐστιν αἷμα Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.See J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer, eds. and trans., The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations of Their Writings, 2nd. ed., The Letters of Ignatius, To the Trallians, Chapter 8 (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1992), p. 163.Ignatius (@ 110 AD): I take no pleasure in corruptible food or the pleasures of this life. I want the bread of God, which is the flesh of Christ who is of the seed of David; and for drink I want his blood, which is incorruptible love.Greek text: Oὐχ ἥδομαι τροφῇ φθορᾶς οὐδὲ ἡδοναῖς τοῦ βίου τούτου. Ἄρτον θεοῦ θέλω, ὅ ἐστιν σὰρξ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, «τοῦ ἐκ σπέρματος Δαυίδ», καὶ πόμα θέλω τὸ αἷμα αὐτοῦ, ὅ ἐστιν ἀγάπη ἄφθαρτος.See J. B. Lightfoot and J. R. Harmer, eds. and trans., The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations of Their Writings, 2nd. ed., The Letters of Ignatius, To the Romans, Chapter 7 (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1992), p. 175.Now square this comment from Tertullian with what Trent teaches:Then, having taken the bread and given it to His disciples, He made it His own body, by saying, ‘This is my body,’ that is, the figure of my body. (ANF, Vol. 3, Against Marcion, 4.40).This comparison between Kelly and Trent is a great example of how you should have evaluated the claims of Rome in the light of the evidence of the early church.JS
- April 26th, 2013 at 22:36 | #12Mr Cadle states: “This is way too much work. I am not cutting and pasting off of a computer website here, but I am typing out of books on my desk.”Yes it is Lloyd, but it’s the situation you created by not focusing on one issue at a time.In regard to “prayers for the dead,” your latest subject, this isn’t the same thing as purgatory. That combined with the fact the fathers are all over the ballpark on this issue. Tertullian for instance speaks of prayers for refrigerium for those who have died. Compare that with Gregory the Great’s view or Augustine’s view, all of them held different views on it. To say all three of these men, because they speak of prayers for the dead support the doctrine of purgatory is reading the later doctrine of purgatory back into the fathers. In some cases when the early church is cited as holding “prayers for the dead” what’s in view is a prayer of joy for the departed, not a prayer for their release from purgatory. Once again your way of reading the early church on this subject is just another example of a faulty way of reading the early church documents. You’re reading later Roman doctrines back into history.You state: “I don’t have the time to continue, at least for the time being. I have more than made a case for the teachings of the Early Church Fathers not being in agreement with post Reformation denominations.”If you were being consistent, you would apply the same standard you use to the modern Roman Catholic Church. But it appears you can’t see past your own zeal to think carefully through this. Had you done that, you’d realize the paradigm you’re using to evaluate truth from error is faulty. Certainly church history can be insightful, but it is not the infallible interpreter of the Bible. If you use history as your sole infallible interpreter, it will bite you.You state: “Aren’t you Reformed? Aren’t you a Protestant? Yet you are on this website hand in hand with those that you are not even in agreement with in doctrine and practice (if you are Reformed).”Yes, I’m Reformed. Big deal. Simply because I am does not mean I can’t read the documents of the early church and point out your double standards.You state: “Among Christians in the World, some 75% are either Orthodox or Catholic. And they agree on about 94% of doctrine. The other 25% are Protestant, and they are divided all over the place on doctrine and practice.”I suggest sir, you open your Bible and notice that Jesus and the disciples were outnumbered by the majority, which was, at the time, Judaism. Also take note of the remnant theme that runs throughout the pages of Scripture. In case you’re not convinced by the testimony of Scripture that a majority doesn’t necessarily= true, an in-depth study of Athanasius would be something you certainly would benefit from. Search particularly for the phrase, “Athanasius Contra Mundum” and pay particular attention to who comprised the majority in the church and what they thought of Athanasius.You state: “I am out of here on this issue.”That’s fine Lloyd. I certainly hope you continue to study the early church. Here is a word of advise to you from the good Doctor:“the sum of my argument is that whereas the words of men, and the use of the centuries, can be tolerated and endorsed, provided they do not conflict with the sacred Scriptures, nevertheless they do not make articles of faith, nor any necessary observances.” – (Martinus Lutherus contra Henricum Regem Angliæ)JS
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