In our apologetics and debating; it is helpful to come back to basics, such as prayer, repentance, brokenness over sin, humility.
"The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise." Psalm 51:17
"For thus says the high and exalted One
Who lives forever, whose name is Holy,
“I dwell on a high and holy place,
And also with the contrite and lowly of spirit
In order to revive the spirit of the lowly
And to revive the heart of the contrite." Isaiah 57:15
"The Place for Repentance in the Gospel" by John McArthur
Luke 15:7; Luke 15:10
Luke 3:8
Luke 13:1-5
Luke 5:32
Luke 24:46-47
Acts 17:30
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Acts 20:21
Acts 26:20
2 Corinthians 7:7-10
2 Timothy 2:24-26
Acts 11:18
Psalm 32
Psalm 51
"The message of salvation, by the way, can be fatally compromised by what is left out, by what is not said." John McArthur
This also reminded me of the fact that the issue of the true meaning of repentance was Luther's very first point in the 95 Theses, against the Roman Catholic emphasis of centuries of "do penance" - doing an external act of dead ritual.
This also reminded me of the fact that the issue of the true meaning of repentance was Luther's very first point in the 95 Theses, against the Roman Catholic emphasis of centuries of "do penance" - doing an external act of dead ritual.
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13 comments:
"doing an external act of dead ritual."
Penance is a ritual? Since when? Not in my lifetime as a Catholic.
"Penance is a ritual? Since when? Not in my lifetime as a Catholic."
Apparently so; at least as far as EWTN says. You may want to check with them about their wording.
http://ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/GUIDEPEN.HTM
"The priest invites the penitent to have trust in God using one of the formulas in the ritual or similar words."
"The priest asks the penitent to express sorrow by praying one of the prayers found in the ritual or in his or her own words."
EA,
Penance does not equal the "Sacrament of Penance" also called the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Penance is a much broader term that includes a change of heart, a resolve not to commit the same sin, and maybe an attempt to undo the damage done, an exercise in self denial or mortification to strengthen the will and discipline the flesh, and even priestly absolution in the Sacrament if the sin was mortal.
Fasting is a penance. It is not a ritual. Alms giving can be a penance. It is not a ritual.
This is as bad as TurretinFan complaining that Catholics have to make "acts of contrition" and other acts of works righteousness that take away from Christ.
What?!?! An "Act of Contrition" is not a penitential act like fasting or wearing a hair shirt. It is a prayer, like saying grace before meals. After absolution in the SACRAMENT OF RECONCILIATION or PENANCE, it is prayer that takes about 10 seconds to say before exiting the box.
In the Bible Jesus says, "When you fast...". He does not say, " If you fast...". We are commanded to do penance.
You guys criticize what you don't even understand.
EA,
The "Ritual" the priest is referring to is a book! Not an actual ritual as you are referring to with smells and bells.
Quit trying to teach me my own religion.
Sheesh!
"You guys criticize what you don't even understand."
What did I criticize? I quoted some statements which I found at EWTN related to the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
"The "Ritual" the priest is referring to is a book! Not an actual ritual as you are referring to with smells and bells.
Quit trying to teach me my own religion."
I know it's a book. I deduced that from the context of the statements that I quoted. Though, in my time as a Catholic, I don't recall ever seeing a separate book for Confession. They told us what to say when I was a kid.
EA,
If you have been to Confession as you imply you have, what accounts for your bizarre line of questioning? You act like a Protestant who has only a second hand acquaintance with Catholicism.
Of course YOU didn't have such a book. I didn't either. Kids usually don't have the stuff that priests have. Did you have Breviary, a Lectionary or a Ritual Romanum? Did you have a set of the Summa?
Why don't you go back to Confession today? Then it will make sense to you after repenting of your apostasy from the Faith.
PS, What on earth could have attracted you to Calvinism? The comforting doctrine that God wants men in hell? Maybe you were tired of the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus and decided to cash it in for the totally anti-biblical doctrine of Limited Atonement? Maybe you like the idea that God loves some and is deserving of some of our love rather than He loves all and is worthy of all our love? You probably were impressed by the concept of once saved always saved. huh? It's not in the Bible but it is comforting.
By the way, assuming your Mom and dad stayed in the Harlot, how is your relationship with them?
"If you have been to Confession as you imply you have, what accounts for your bizarre line of questioning?"
What questions did I ask that you feel are bizarre?
Thanks.
Guy,
The point I was making was what Luther's point # 1 in the 95 theses, that Biblical repentance had been replaced with the rituals that the priests were giving to those that came to confession - pilgrimmages, visiting graves, prayers to Mary, going on one's knees on St. Peter's steps, indulgences, giving alms, getting merit from fighting in Crusades, etc. These dead rituals and works of merit are not part of Biblical repentance.
We are not arguing against those aspects of contrition and brokenness and confession to God (I John 1:9) and restoration (for example when one steals, one should restore what they stole, etc.).
Penance is a much broader term that includes a change of heart
If we put this all back in 1516-1517, the piety of the time, as Luther saw it, was that the people were being instructed that they did not have to have a change of heart, but simply had to go through the motions. that's why the first 3 theses argue,
THESIS 1: When the Lord calls us to repent, he meant the entire life of a believer is one of penance.
THESIS 2: Matthew 4:17 means “repent”, not “do penance”. This verse does not refer to the sacrament of penance
THESIS 3: Repentance is both internal and external. *Luther not attacking the sacrament of penance or the institution of indulgences, but the gross abuse of the indulgence.
Ken,
If one is truly repentant, as Zacchaeus was, he will want to restore what he has unlawfully taken or used. And he will want to do more than the minimum.
Just deciding you won't do it again is not enough.
Penance also serves another purpose. Think of Paul filling up what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ.
By the way," pilgrimmages, visiting graves, prayers to Mary, going on one's knees on St. Peter's steps, indulgences, giving alms, getting merit from fighting in Crusades, etc." are not rituals. And they are not dead nor are they unbiblical.
Prayer, fasting and alms giving are all biblical. Plus all pious Jews made the pilgrimage up to Jerusalem every year, including Joseph, Mary and Jesus.
They are dead and wrong and unBiblical because of the merit and earning forgiveness that was attached to them in the Roman Catholic system.
If one is truly repentant, as Zacchaeus was, he will want to restore what he has unlawfully taken or used. And he will want to do more than the minimum.
true; ok.
Just deciding you won't do it again is not enough.
True; I never made that claim.
Penance also serves another purpose. Think of Paul filling up what was lacking in the sufferings of Christ.
wrong. The only think lacking in Christ's sufferings is the presentation and proclaimation of them to all the nations and the willingness to suffer as a result of evangelism and missions; not the way the RC interprets that.
By the way," pilgrimmages, visiting graves, prayers to Mary, going on one's knees on St. Peter's steps, indulgences, giving alms, getting merit from fighting in Crusades, etc." are not rituals. And they are not dead nor are they unbiblical.
They are dead and wrong in the RC context. giving to the poor is right; with the right theology and right motivation; but NOT as a substitute for some other sin; it is not right.
Prayer, fasting and alms giving are all biblical.
Agreed, but in the right context and motivation; the RC system is flawed because of the merit and earning associated with them and substituting giving alms for sins that have nothing to do with the issue of money, etc.
Plus all pious Jews made the pilgrimage up to Jerusalem every year, including Joseph, Mary and Jesus.
Yes; then Jesus and the New Covenant changed all that - John 4:19-24; Galatians, Romans
Ken,
I have already posted a very long piece on money and indulgences. The Church does not now, nor ever has "sold" indulgences.
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