Interesting that Paul Williams then grabbed a few "choice quotes" and says that they "go to the heart of the matter". Indeed, the heart of the matter is the human heart, which is full of sin(Genesis 6:5), in bondage to sin(John 8:34), and causes us to be unclean and defiled, and is the root of sin and causes us to be guilty enough to be sent to hell. Jesus said this in Matthew 5:21-26 (the roots of murder are anger and hatred); Matthew 5:27-30 (the roots of adultery are sexual lust) and Mark 7:20-23 (the roots of all sins are the evil thoughts within the heart.)
Here is some of it reproduced below, with 3 (or 4) Muslims, Muhammad Al-Hakeem, Abbas, and Erik, and also some one who goes by "Semsav12" - with some editorial changes for space reasons. There are some things I took out and some things I added, but the ideas were from other sections of our exchange, in order to make it understandable. Feel free to visit the link above and see other details and more interaction in the com-boxes. I am not reproducing everything here.
. Muhammad Al- Hakeem wrote:
.
. Not to mention that God’s true love, justice and mercy is about
simply forgiving those who sincerely repented;
Ken writes:
You assume that humans can sincerely repent. (without the grace of God in regeneration) Romans 3:9-23 – there is no one who is sincere and no one seeks for God and no one has perfect repentance. Not committing physical adultery is not enough; for you have selfish lusts in your heart. (Matthew 5:27-30) And that lust sends you to hell. Isa Al Masih said this. Not committing actual murder is not enough, for you have hatred and anger in your heart, and that anger and hatred sends you to hell. (Matthew 5:21-26) That anger and hatred sends you to hell. The roots of sin are in the thoughts, and motives in the heart. (Mark 7:20-23) External washings cannot cleanse your heart of your jealousy, pride, selfishness, lust, anger, self-pity, foolishness, rancor, bitterness. God does not wink at sin. You denigrate the holiness of God. Forgiveness was based on the sacrifice/atonement in the Torah and Old Testament. Why do you think God set up the sacrificial system in the book of Exodus and Leviticus? Why did God substitute an innocent ram in the place of Abraham’s son? (Genesis 22) Yahya [the Arabic Qur'anic form for John the Baptist] said and about Jesus (Isa Al Masih), “Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29)
Muhammad Al-Hakeem: not by making the [cross/atonement/Christ's sacrifice] only way to wipe out sin –
The Scriptures are clear – Without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. Hebrews 9:22 [see also 1 John 2:2; Revelation 5:9] The whole book of Hebrews, especially chapters 8, 9, and 10 explain how Christ’s death was the final sacrifice and final atonement for sin, and fulfillment of the sacrificial system in the Torah and Old Testament.
and not by punishing an innocent
man (only the human nature died, as you claim) for the sins of billions of
other sinners.
.
This sentence is
understandable and an objection to the Christian message from an Islamic
viewpoint, ok. Since we believe that the Son voluntarily came and became flesh
and voluntarily gave His life out of love for mankind, it is wrong for you to
keep communicating what we believe without the aspect of voluntary love for
sinners. Jesus said, “no one takes My life from Me, I lay it down voluntarily
on my own authority and initiative. I have authority to lay it down and take it
up again. (John 10:18)
I used to be
quite curious about and respecting of the famous Christian “God is Love”
statement, until I knew what it really is about. I now don’t know how much
“love” can really be attributed to the Christian God. Please stop deceiving
people.
Do you even know where the phrase
“God is love” is located? I would encourage you to actually read and study it
and think about it. It actually explains all the details.
1 John 4:7-21 is the
full paragraph that answers many of the questions and objections you have.
Then
read the entire book of 1 John (5 short chapters) slowly with aql (عقل = mind, reason, thinking) and ta'amoq (تعمق = deep thought) and
tafakkor. ( تفکر = meditation )
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone
who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not
know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that
God has sent His only unique Son into the world so that we might live through
Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent
His Son to be the propitiation [satisfaction of justice/ turning away of wrath] for our sins. 11
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has
seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is
perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because
He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has
sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is
the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and
have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who
abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is
perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment;
because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love;
but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one
who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20
If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one
who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not
seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God
should love his brother also.
Abbas wrote:
Your people saw the crucifixing from afar. That is what the
Quran is saying that is a conjecture. Why didn’t they go close to witness it
first hand?
John(an apostle/disciple and eye-witness), Mary, Jesus’ Mother,
and other women were close and witnessed the crucifixion. You left out that
part that I gave you – John chapter 19. Since Mark wrote for Peter, we can
conclude that Peter was further back, but close enough to witness it; same with
Matthew, who was an eyewitness. Luke interviewed Mary and the rest of the
apostles/disciples/ eyewitnesses. There are so many details of the trials,
arrest, crucifixion, resurrection in all four gospels that you cannot just
dismiss them. At first, when they arrested Jesus, the disciples fled out of
fear that they would be arrested also. But the text says that Peter came back
and followed at a distance. I already gave you all the references. There are so
many details of the crucifixion in all four gospels, and in other historical
writings, that it is the Qur’an that has been proven to be false in 4:157.
.
Erik wrote that the crucifixion and the Father punishing the Son was "child abuse" - "stop cosmic child abuse"
It is not child abuse if the Son voluntarily out of
love for human sinners gave His life because He wanted to (John 10:18; Mark 10:45); and the victory of
the resurrection over death and sin and Satan shows that God won the victory by
humility and love and power – the power of allowing someone to defeat you – by
not fighting back or taking vengeance/revenge. When you leave out the love and
voluntarily aspect and when you leave out the victory and power of the
resurrection, you distort the Christian message.
So, Paul, your selective
choosing of a few statements was not a good Da’awah.
Lord willing, more to come.
Lord willing, more to come.
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2 comments:
Hi Jessie:
I moderate the comments. blogger does not allow forwarded comments (or even copying comments) without publishing them first. Once a comment is published, I think Ken gets a copy of it automatically.
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