The Catholic Answers Forums, James White, and Charity

I've been on the Catholic Answers forums since 2004. This never ceases to amaze me. Why haven't I been banned? Well, I'm not there every day. I make occasional visits, usually involved with Reformation-related subjects. One thing I've tried to do at CA is abide by the rules. Maybe that's the reason I've yet to get the boot.

Sometimes this isn't easy. For instance, recently a Roman Catholic participant was demonizing Luther and the Reformation on the "Non-Catholic Religions"  forum. Rather than interacting with this person, I decided to use the "Report Post" alert feature to notify the moderators of these uncharitable comments being posted. I sent in alerts on two or three different posts. The response to these alerts was that I myself received an "infraction" for allegedly abusing the alert system, and the vilifying posts were allowed to stay. So, lesson learned: don't use the "Report Post" alert feature on the Catholic Answers Non-Christian Religions forum.

Now, I don't get the logic of this, since Catholic Answers provides this link as well as these general  guidelines:

 "Civility and a respect for each other should be foremost." 

 "Posters are expected to treat each other as equals with equal expectations of each other in terms of research, logic, challenges, and portrayal of Catholic teaching." 

"Terms of derision, derogatory remarks, baiting, and inflammatory statements are prohibited."
"Avoid categorizing people by a term which could be considered derogatory (e.g., Nazi or neocon) unless they have embraced that title. In which case, you may qualify them with the term as long as you preface it with the word "avowed."

Posters are asked to use their best judgement when posting articles using such terms. Do not abbreviate terms." What to look for in your post before you press submit: Is the post civil and charitable? Does the post challenge those to whom it is directed or does it bash them? And remember: always, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. 

 Guidelines for posting on religious discussions
 Members are not allowed to be disrespectful of anyone's faith or religion, whether it is Catholicism or not. If a member is disrespectful, he will generally be counseled first and suspended if he persists in disrespectful postings.

If the nature of an initial posting is blatantly disrespectful to any religion (e.g., "the pope is the anti-Christ" or "Rome is the Whore of Babylon" or "Muslims are terrorists"), suspension may be immediate and without prior counseling.

Members are free to discuss, dialogue, question, disagree with, and debate the doctrines and dogmas of both Catholicism and non-Catholic religions. However, all discourse must be civil and charitable.

I guess I shouldn't expect these rules apply to any comments Roman Catholics make about that great destroyer, Martin Luther or the Reformation in general. Ironically, in the same discussion a Lutheran was banned for making one unflattering comment about Roman Catholicism (if he made other less-than-charitable comments about Rome, I certainly didn't see them). I pointed out this odd double standard in a post, and it was deleted by a moderator. So, let's say with this particular situation, the Catholic Answers moderators have some sort of set of "other" rules that trump the posted rules. Well, it's their website, so they can do what they want.

Now here's a situation in which they moderated more successfully. If there's one person Roman Catholics disdain as much as Luther, it's Dr. James White. Recently a Methodist on the forum stated,

"James White has always seemed to me to be a peculiarly angry and unhappy man, who has been turned into a kind of Scrooge-like figure by cherishing his dislike of Catholics, & using it as whip to try to beat you all up."

Now, given the guidelines posted above, this comment goes over the line, doesn't it? So, I responded:

Today, 8:08 am

TertiumQuid Regular Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 700 Religion: Reformed

Re: Praying to Dead Folks Quote: Originally Posted by Zooey James White has always seemed to me to be a peculiarly angry & unhappy man, who has been turned into a kind of Scrooge-like figure by cherishing his dislike of Catholics, & using it as whip to try to beat you all up.. I found these insightful comments about charity on the "Rules of the Road" forum: There is an expectation here at CAF that we all should behave with civility. In practice this means striving to deliver our comments here with as much charity as we can muster. Some Catholics who are going through a renewal of their faith can take on a somewhat strident tone. Having re-discovered the truth of their faith, they then proceed to jump on a soapbox and start proclaiming the truth as they see it. Fellow Catholics, priests, bishops, even the pope, are subject to "correction." Perhaps they do not realize that this behavior often comes across to others as trying to use doctrine as a weapon. Here are some quotations from Church leaders to consider closely: Quote: "Win an argument and lose a soul." -- Bishop Fulton Sheen "Love without truth would be blind; truth without love would be like 'a clanging cymbal.'" -- Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, Homily "Preach the gospel at all times, and, when necessary, use words." -- St. Francis (attributed) "You know well enough that our Lord does not look so much at the greatness of our actions, nor even at their difficulty, but at the love with which we do them." -- St. Therese of Lisieux "Though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could move mountains, but have not charity, I am nothing.... Love does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil.... Love bears all things ... endures all things. So faith, hope, charity abide, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." -- St. Paul (1 Cor. 13:2, 5, 7, 14) "Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence." -- St. Peter (1 Pet. 3:15; RSV-CE) Some members have left the Catholic Answers Forums because CAF management would not allow them to behave rudely. There are many venues on the Internet where one may behave as uncharitably as one desires. This is not one of them. It should also be noted that Catholics are NOT given preference because of their religious affiliation. In fact, Catholics are often held to a higher standard. As our Lord cautioned, "To whom much is given, of him will much be required" (Luke 12:48). Here at CAF, we believe that the truth will take care of itself. Our job is to reveal it as charitably as we can. Finally, the Moderators are prepared to help members remain within the boundaries of charity. But that only works if each of us is willing to co-operate. Please accept moderator guidance graciously and with the Christian gentleness St. Peter spoke of, even if you feel you have been wronged. (And don't forget that if you do feel that your case needs to be reviewed, you are free to appeal Mod actions to the Admin staff at forumadmin@catholic.com.) But please keep in mind that making continual complaints about a perceived slight or injustice is counterproductive. The Mods only have so much time to devote to CAF. Rather, offer it up. Others will benefit spiritually from your pain. It's the Catholic thing to do.

Now, here was a response back from a different participant: "Frankly, I am baffled as to why you posted this. Was something offensive? Then perhaps you should take it to the mods. If not mod-worthy, what are you responding to?" Now, given my previous infractions for contacting a moderator, I decided to respond back:

Today, 9:58 pm

TertiumQuid Regular Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 700 Religion: Reformed

Re: Praying to Dead Folks Quote: Originally Posted by Tomyris Frankly, I am baffled as to why you posted this. Was something offensive? Then perhaps you should take it to the mods. If not mod-worthy, what are you responding to? Hello Tomyris, I'm actually baffled as to why you're baffled. Do you think this comment is in any way, charitable?: Quote: "James White has always seemed to me to be a peculiarly angry & unhappy man, who has been turned into a kind of Scrooge-like figure by cherishing his dislike of Catholics, & using it as whip to try to beat you all up.." This seems to me to go beyond the bounds of charity as expressed in this Catholic Answers post. JS

To which another participant posted:

Dee S Regular Member Prayer Warrior Book Club Member Join Date: September 28, 2011 Posts: 2,679 Religion: Catholic

Re: Praying to Dead Folks Quote: Originally Posted by TertiumQuid Hello Tomyris, I'm actually baffled as to why you're baffled. Do you think this comment is in any way, charitable?: "James White has always seemed to me to be a peculiarly angry & unhappy man, who has been turned into a kind of Scrooge-like figure by cherishing his dislike of Catholics, & using it as whip to try to beat you all up.." This seems to me to go beyond the bounds of charity as expressed in this Catholic Answers post. JS That comment does not strike me as uncharitable. Descriptive..yes, informative...yes. I'd never heard of James White before this, but having taken a look, I would say that the poster was "charitable" in their definition - rather than the opposite! He comes across as very anti-Catholic and abuses us, our beliefs and doctrines with no pretence of charity -

...And my response:

TertiumQuid Regular Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 701 Religion: Reformed

Re: Praying to Dead Folks Quote: Originally Posted by Dee S That comment does not strike me as uncharitable. Descriptive..yes, informative...yes. I'd never heard of James White before this, but having taken a look, I would say that the poster was "charitable" in their definition - rather than the opposite! He comes across as very anti-Catholic and abuses us, our beliefs and doctrines with no pretence of charity - Interesting! Someone can post that a person they've probably never met is angry, unhappy, and Scrooge-like, who "whips" and "beats up" people, and that, according to you is charitable? Very interesting. JS

...and then...in response...

Today, 12:59 pm

Dee S  Regular Member Prayer Warrior Book Club Member Join Date: September 28, 2011 Posts: 2,688 Religion: Catholic

Re: Praying to Dead Folks Quote: Originally Posted by TertiumQuid  Interesting! Someone can post that a person they've probably never met is angry, unhappy, and Scrooge-like, who "whips" and "beats up" people, and that, according to you is charitable? Very interesting. JS What's really interesting here is that James White has a well earned reputation for being anti-Catholic, and an angry, rude person who does beat up on people, especially women...read what Peter Lumpkins has to report: Debate Expert: "James White Driven by Emotion Rather than Reason" by Peter Lumpkins  Peter, Thank you for posting my comment. I will write a longer reply to your questions about Dr. Whites "ad hominem" arguments against you when not using my iPhone. But for the record, his attempts to discern your motives is bad argumentation and lacks objective support. I also think labeling you Alexander the Coppersmith wassimply wrong. And because I believe James is intellectually honest and responsible before God for every idle word, he will eventually agree that many of his chariactures[sic] of you and others are driven by emotion rather than reason. More on the other thread, DrV (//link emphasis added) "James White & God's Love (or lack thereof) for All People" by Peter Lumpkins » "On a recent comment thread at SBC Tomorrow, an unusual number of comments were logged concerning James White's disrespectful comments toward women. I took the time to listen to the broadcast in question. I now understand precisely why one Christian lady took extreme offense at White's remarks>>> "James White and his trusty sidekick, Rich Pierce, need to publicly apologize for these offensive remarks toward not only Mormon women, but ethnic women." Brigham Young Had Ugly Wives (the topic for this broadcast)- "No one would debate me on that...we have had some enjoyment over the years looking at the pictures of Bringham Young's wives...(lots of sniggering)..you're being mean, people say but....I would be a heretic too if i'd been married to 94 of them ...got to give that man some leeway..." He then asks caller (Shaun) in to the radio show "..ever read BY's collected sermons... have you ever seen pictures of BY's wives...look it up on google..in the Mormon Encyclopedia...scan the picture to a jpg...evidence that the mans' a ...? (lots of laughter throughout) "Russian women look like Russian men...Russian women are a lot up on (his wives)..." How's thatfor a start... __________________ Deus caritas est

.

..to which I responded...

Today, 3:59 pm

TertiumQuid  Regular Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: New Jersey Posts: 702 Religion: Reformed

Re: Praying to Dead Folks Quote: Originally Posted by Dee S  What's really interesting here is that James White has a well earned reputation for being anti-Catholic, Having arguments against Roman Catholicism means that one should refer to Dr. White as "angry, unhappy, and Scrooge-like, who "whips" and "beats up" people"? Once again, I refer you to this Catholic Answers post. Quote: Originally Posted by Dee S  and an angry, rude person I've known Dr. White over 10 years, and this is simply not true. Even if it were, it still violates the sentiment expressed in this Catholic Answers post. Quote: Originally Posted by Dee S  who does beat up on people, If by "beat up people", you mean being able to cogently argue against that which one opposes, then sure. However, saying "beat up people" is not the sort of ideal in dialog I get from this Catholic Answers post. Quote: Originally Posted by Dee S  especially women...read what Peter Lumpkins has to report: I'm not sure if you are aware of the dialog between Peter and Dr. White, but there are two sides to every story, and charity would say that one should learn both sides before agreeing a particular person is "angry, unhappy, and Scrooge-like, who "whips" and "beats up" people." Dr. White does not "beat up women". Lumpkins took what was meant to be humorous, and used the ol' PC speech argument. I wonder if Mr. Lumpkins has any problem with the sentiment in these Bible verses, "16Now Laban had two daughters; the name of the older was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel. 17Leah had weak eyes, but Rachel had a lovely figure and was beautiful." Quote: Originally Posted by Dee S  How's thatfor a start... Quite frankly, it really saddens me. It doesn't at all seem to reflect the standards put forth in this Catholic Answers post. JS

So, how did this wind up? All of my comments were deleted, as well as the other comments supporting the anti-James White comment. Now, I think that's good moderation. Everyone's comment got dumped. Now, here's where the Catholic Answers Moderators dropped the ball. They still allow this comment to be posted:

"James White has always seemed to me to be a peculiarly angry and unhappy man, who has been turned into a kind of Scrooge-like figure by cherishing his dislike of Catholics, & using it as whip to try to beat you all up."