"Essentially, they argue that infant baptism was not the practice of the Apostles and their immediate successors, but developed through the convergence of several factors. Gradually, paedobaptism came to be the majority position in the church, but probably not until the later part of the fourth century." (James Renihan, page 10, Foreward, Baptism in the Early Church)Something else I wrote in the com box discussion when it was brought up that Luther would probably not have joined with Zwingli in his opposition to the Roman Catholic Church, because of their disagreement over the Lord's supper:
I think it is sad - the disunity that Luther had with Zwingli over the Lord's supper issue; and the statements that Luther made about Zwingli are scandalous and RC apologists use those statements all the time. I like the unity around the gospel that the movement of "together for the gospel" demonstrates - www.t4g.org - Baptists (Dever, Mohler, Piper), Presbyterians (Ligon Duncan, R. C. Sproul, Carl Truman), Charismatic Calvinists(C. J. Mahany, Matt Chandler), Dispensationalists(McArthur), etc. I am glad for that and that the old days of the wars of Europe over Christian doctrine are over.So, we are unified in the gospel and in Christ against the errors of the Roman Catholic Church, and specifically here, ex opere operato and baptismal regeneration. Infant baptism is a secondary issue over which we can disagree about, and Evangelical Protestant churches are free to practice and teach their convictions about it and defend it biblically, but maintain gospel unity and fellowship in conferences and networks such at "together for the gospel" and "the gospel coalition", but RC baptismal regeneration is a doctrine and practice that divides us and that doctrine is a heresy and contrary to justification by faith alone in the Scriptures.
Now, to my main point of this post!
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that the work of the priest [* see at end] - performing the ceremony of baptism on the recipient (infants mostly, and adult converts who have never been baptized in the name of the Trinity, etc.) actually causes the person to be born again and confers grace on that person. They teach that the water of baptism literally washes their souls, when performed by the RC priest, when he says the words in Latin, "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit". The Latin phrase, "ex opere operato" means "from the work, it works", which is to say that the action and duty and performance of the ceremony actually does something to the recipient.
This is totally unbiblical.
1 Corinthians 10:1-5
For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not well-pleased; for they were laid low in the wilderness.
Hebrews 3:16 -4:2
16 For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17 And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. Therefore, let us fear if, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you may seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, just as they also; but the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard.
Note: “all were baptized” – I Cor. 10:2
So all were baptized physically "into Moses" - but not all had faith. Internal faith is the key. All Jewish males were circumcised, but many did not have faith, and the NT says, "neither circumcision or uncircumcision means anything, what counts is a new creation" - Galatians 6:15 See also Romans 9:8 - "it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of promise . . . "
Note:
“nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased” – I Cor. 10:5
“we see they were not able to enter because of unbelief” – Hebrews 3:19
“the word did not profit them, because it was not united by faith in those who heard” – Hebrews 4:2
“Without faith it is impossible to please God” – Hebrews 11:6
“the just shall live by faith” – Romans 1:17; Romans 3:28-4:16; 5:1; Galatians 2:16, 20, chapter 3-5, etc.
So, Luther’s justification by faith alone is the key, “the doctrine on which the church stands or falls” (whatever James Swan’s research revealed, if he actually said the exact words or others after him conflated several statements together.
So, the Roman Catholic form of baptismal regeneration is totally unbiblical, and the ex opere operato understanding of performance/work/doing the motions of the ceremony is not Biblical either. Baptismal regeneration seems to be one of the earliest mistakes of the early church, which, as far as extant evidence goes, the earliest instance of it is in the writings of Justin Martyr (between 148-161 AD). But Justin does not teach infant baptism at all, in fact he says things like baptism is for those "who choose and repent" (First Apology 61, cited in the chapter by Steven McKinon, "Baptism in the Patristic Writings", in Believer's Baptism: Sign of the New Covenant in Christ. Edited by Thomas Schreiner and Shawn D. Wright, 2006, B & H; p. 171.) For a full book defense of Believer's Baptism -
TUAD ("Truth Unites and Divides), in the com boxes mentioned above, added a reference to an article in Themelios on Baptismal Regeneration and Luther here. It is very good, and also argues against the Federal Vision movement.
[* ] Addendum: A Roman Catholic who goes by "TheDen" pointed out that others may baptize people, not just the priests. I had forgotten about that. Thanks for pointing that out; I sincerely desire to be accurate. Here is what the Roman Catholic Catechism says:
1256 The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and priest and, in the Latin Church, also the deacon. In case of necessity, anyone, even a non-baptized person, with the required intention, can baptize, by using the Trinitarian baptismal formula. The intention required is to will to do what the Church does when she baptizes. The Church finds the reason for this possibility in the universal saving will of God and the necessity of Baptism for salvation.
250 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 250 of 250The works of the Spirit are many in number: regeneration is but one of them. Faith and repentance are also. But, as we can see in both Acts and Hebrews, they are not the same as that overwhelming power which comes through the Apostles, and through elders (1 & 2 Timothy)
This is simply more of your ambiguity which does not answer the question whether the Ethiopian eunuch was regenerated, having been born again, receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 18:24 ¶And a certain Jew named Apollos..
Nor does your Acts 18:24-19:6 refute the distinction between Apollos, who was fervent in the spirit (which normally means the Holy Spirit, versus simply “fervent in spirit”), and spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, which testifies to Apollos being a disciple of Christ, and which normally would include knowing about the Holy Spirit, (Lk. 11:13; Jn. 14:15,16; 16:12-15), and simply needed more complete instruction, and which was supplied by non-apostles.
And which is in contrast to the disciples of John who had not even heard “whether there be any Holy Ghost,” and had to be told that “they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus,” testifying they were merely taught by John.
As you continue to neglect to clearly state whether the Ethiopian eunuch was regenerated, having been born again, after being baptized by Phillip, then perhaps further attempts at exchange is not warranted.
Joe, Nor do I need any specific examples. We have no explicit teaching to baptize or not baptize infants.
Again, you certainly do, as you have clear commands to teach, repent and believe which precede baptism, and incomplete correspondence between circumcision and baptism. As with Peter, (Acts 2:38; 10:43,47) Paul once again affirms faith goes with baptism in stating: "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. " (Galatians 3:25-27)
And i do not see your texts as teaching infants literally identify and trust in the Lord Jesus to save them from their sinfulness.
We see 4 out of the 12 or so baptisms recorded mentioning households, and in the Jewish context, this would most certainly include their infants.
As said, the Jews did not equate circumcision with baptism but did both, while as said, 2 out of the 4 household baptisms state that they all believed, and the other 2 are the most brief.
Further, we would expect not to have examples of it, if the practice was assumed.
That the practice was assumed is itself an assumption, which is based on an assumption, and as shown, some early church “fathers” evidence that this was not a set practice even in their time, as they advocated waiting until a child could understand.
Well, that is a good question as to whether slaves were baptized or not. My initial reaction would be yes, but, suppose one could argue that from Acts 2:39 that since it is to “you and your children”…slaves would not be included.
As said, “you and your children” contextually refers to the promise of the Spirit, which is conditioned upon repentance and faith. But to make circumcision so fully correspond to baptism as to include infants should also require all slaves of Christian masters to be baptized, but it is incongruous that this would not be dealt with in Scripture, as some would refuse. And if slaves were not baptized if the owner was then it testifies to a restriction due to the well-attested to need for personal repentance, in contrast to circumcision.
Nonetheless, it would still be expanded for the sheer fact of females now receiving the sign and the emphasis and direct command to go to the gentiles both drastically expand the covenantal sign. This is congruous and indicative of the NC being more inclusive, gracious, and better - unlike your paradigm.
Baptism is more inclusive, gracious, and better as the salvation “through the faith of the operation of God” which it signifies includes all believers of every kindred and tongue, race and nation, (Rv. 5:9) and far better than an earthly kingdom and sanctuary but a kingdom not of this world, (Jn. 18:46; Col. 1:13) and entrance into the holiest of all to the throne of grace, (Heb. 10:19) with a better high priest, etc.
However, it is also more narrow such as in a higher standard, and greater restriction on divorce, while the death and resurrection which baptism represents is appropriated by the faith which is behind it, though we disagree on baptism being representative of salvation.
Pt. 2
Well, yea, they are linked as Paul says
But Paul does not make the linkage you argue for. Again, the text simply says,
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; " (Colossians 2:11-13) )
As Rm 6 teaches, baptism represents being crucified with Christ and risen again, as one is born again and the heart purified by faith, (Acts 15:8,9) but rather than this being realized due to an act being performed, this text states that “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” And which corresponds to Rm. 10:9,10.
Thus once again the reality is realized by faith, and Scripture teaches an age of reason, before which one has “no knowledge between good and evil, “ and does not know “how to refuse the evil and choose the good.” (Dt. 1:39; Is. 7:16)
Yes, the Jews did both. How does that support your argument?
Because they did not see the two as the same,kind of sign, unlike your analogy, while the washing aspect out of which baptism flowed is only realized by faith by repentant sinners.
Well, this presumes “household” would now all of a sudden exclude those under 3…which we have no evidence for and strong evidence against.
No, you have zero evidence that households includes those under 3, and instead where more details are given the evidence testifies to households in which all believed being baptized.
Again, it appears that you ignore the context of the situation. To argue that the Jew at the time would not see a correlation between Gen 17 –“to you and your seed” – and now infer that their children under 3 would not receive the sign of the covenant is simply irresponsible.
Rather it is irresponsible to presume the Jews would ignore the distinction between Gn. 17, which required no teaching and repentance and faith for infants and slaves to be circumcised, and the condition of repentance which Peter required in order to be receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not provide what you read into the verse, but clearly states how the “promise” of the gift of the Holy Ghost was to be realized:
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. " (Acts 2:38-39)
Yes, there are differences to be sure. But, we have Jesus specifically and explicitly teaching that infants in the community of faith, are part of the Kingdom of God, and that adults must become like them in order to be part of it, the linkage between circum and baptism, continuation of corp solid, the NC as a fulfillment and built upon Abraham, and on and on.
Which “specifically and explicitly teaching” the desired correlation between circumcision and baptism is an example of reading more out of texts than what they state.
"And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. " (Matthew 18:2-3)
Pt. 3
"And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. " (Mark 10:13-16)
In context the Lord Jesus was dealing with “little children,” likely infants who were carried (He took them up in his arms), and being innocent and lowly they needed not the salvation which baptism testifies to, and to be part of the Kingdom of God requires souls to “become as a little child,” innocent and lowly, “for of such is the kingdom of God.”
If Jesus is referring to little children who can understand their need for Christ and turn to Him in faith, then souls must still become like them in heart, trusting and lowly. But the Lord did not restrict “of such is the kingdom of God” to circumcised little children, nor did He provide any example of baptizing infants.
The Reformers, at least some, attempted to bring the church back to a more pristine period..
Which was and is a work in progress, while extra-Scriptural accretions were also progressively realized by the post-apostolic church, yet even then infant baptism was not a set practice early on.
Yes, redundancy is setting in. If you would just change your thinking, we would be fine. :)
Yes, but...
At one point early on in this conversation, you said you were open to infant baptism. What did you mean by that, because it sure sounds like you are not?
I must be objectively open insomuch as warrant allows, but do not find the circumcision-baptism analogy and “Jews would understand” argument as able to negate the clear commands that make teaching, repentance and believing universally necessary for baptism for all ages, nor do i see any warrant for the hypotheses that infants can believe even if it is an infantile seed faith, in contrast to clear Scriptural statements against them having moral reasoning.
And while some paedobaptism churches do work to bring the subjects of such to personal repentance and faith as they mature, i see fruit of paedobaptism as overall fostering institutionalized Christianity, which is more form than substance, ritual than relationship
Lastly, after my 8 or so posts, you said: "As for your response, i see nothing new."
I did not and do not, but am including the extensive exchange with Lvka also.
Sigh. There were several things that were brought for the first time...so I will treat your silence as not having an answer or just too tired.
I am sure i have a response, but as for too tired, it does take me a long time to write responses, between mental fatigue and arthritic fingers (it literally took me about 8 hours to compile this latest response). But Jesus does and will recompense labor done for Him in faith. However, i think we are at loggerheads.
Your interpretational skills are not very good. Again, you cringe on ambiguous statements, which could just as easily go either way (spirit-Spirit), instead of paying due attention to the context: We are told explicitely that he only knew about John's baptism [18:25], and we see what exactly that means a few verses later, when Apollos' Ephesian converts [18:28 & 18:26 compared with 19:1] are asked by Paul [19:2-4] about the specifics of their baptism. You do the same with Ananias' description as being a "disciple-Disciple": you opt for the former, even though such an interpretation goes against what is being implied in other chapters of the same book (Acts). Here, you choose "Spirit" over "spirit", although it goes against what is told explicitely later in the same passage. I don't regard this as proof of logical thinking on your side.
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I clearly -and repeatedly- stated -again and again- that the eunuch was indeed regenerated -or born again- through holy baptism: Which was the very purpose of this post: to see whether regeneration occurs at baptism, or not.
Your interpretational skills are not very good. Again, you cringe on ambiguous statements, which could just as easily go either way (spirit-Spirit), instead of paying due attention to the context: We are told explicitely that he only knew about John's baptism [18:25], and we see what exactly that means a few verses later,
Insults will not validate your eisegesis, which leaves your charges applicable to you. Being told explicitly that he only knew about John's baptism does not render the Jewish Apollos — who boldly and diligently taught the things of the Lord, and only needed fuller instruction — as being in the same condition as those who but only had the baptism of repentance and never heard of the Holy Spirit. And “fervent in the spirit” indicates the Spirit, whom John the Baptist was full of (without laying on of hands, likewise the apostles), versus “fervent in spirit.” (Eph. 12:11)
And in contrast to Acts 19:2-6, as Acts 18 only teaches Apollos needed more instruction (which is true of all new converts), and does not even mention this being by an apostle, then if Apollos needed laying on of hands the inference would be that this was done by Aquila and Priscilla. And which would necessitate you to make them apostles of them in order to conform to your doctrine which is supported by only two texts, but which other evidence shows was not the only way by which souls received the Holy Spirit.
You do the same with Ananias' description as being a "disciple-Disciple": you opt for the former, even though such an interpretation goes against what is being implied in other chapters of the same book (Acts).
No it does not, as John had disciples, (Mt. 9:14) — and “mathētēs” (disciples) simply means learner, pupil — and other chapters also have context which reveal what manner of disciples one is, and in which it is clear that Ananias was a devout disciple of the Lord, as was Apollos to a good degree, while those “certain disciples” of Acts 19 were hardly disciples of the Lord as they had not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost and had yet to believe on Christ, only having had the baptism of repentance.
"And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. " (Acts 19:3-4)
Thus by paying “due attention to the context” that we see that what is most evidenced is that Apollos was a disciple of the Lord to a good extent, and only needed more complete instruction, though perhaps Aquila and Priscilla laid hands on him, while the “certain disciples” of Acts 19 were only of John, that being one of a basic repentance, who (unlike even Jews in general) did not even know there was a Holy Spirit, but whom they then experienced.
Pt. 2
I clearly -and repeatedly- stated -again and again- that the eunuch was indeed regenerated -or born again- through holy baptism: Which was the very purpose of this post: to see whether regeneration occurs at baptism, or not.
What you stated was that “whenever an Apostle baptizes, the Holy Spirit is given. But whenever a deacon baptizes, the Spirit is absent, and Apostles are sent to complete the job.”
And which leaves the eunuch without the Spirit, and being called on that, you stated that My "rigid doctrine" doesn't "leave the eunuch unregenerate", nor unable to found churches, but when i showed you the contradiction between your doctrine, that laying of apostolic hands was necessary for the Holy Spirit to be given in conversion, all you engaged in was ambiguity about the Spirit being “active” in conversion.
But since you now seem to affirm that the eunuch was indeed regenerated, having received the indwelling Holy Spirit, then you must explain how this was possible if “whenever a deacon baptizes, the Spirit is absent.” How is it possible for the eunuch to have the Holy Spirit without the apostolic laying of hands?
I didn't insult you, so there's no need to feel as if I had.
My point was that the Ephesians in the beginning of Acts 19 are the same ones to whom Apollo preached in the ending of Acts 18, as is clear from the text. They were converted by Apollo (18:28, 18:26) who knew only of John's water-baptism (18:25), and was still in need of perfection in matters of faith (18:26): hence their own lack-of-knowledge, since their own teacher knew nothing of these things. He knew only "the things of the Lord" (ie, Christ), since indeed he believed Him (Jesus) to be the Messiah (18:28), but about the Holy Ghost he knew nothing at THAT time.
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As I wrote (a few times) before:
You seem to think that the giving of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands is the same as it being present in ANY manner or intensity in a person... this is simply not the case.
whereas your paradigm brings us to a point that never was, and have started something new and contrary to any period of the Judeo-Christian faith.
I have long ago lost interest in this discussion, being convinced that believer's or credo or disciple's baptism is the only Biblical view; and the earliest view in the early church during the 1-4 Centuries. infant baptism started in the 3rd century - 215 AD - Hippolytus is the earliest record of it. Tertullian was right on this issue, as we already discussed.
But I disagree with your above statement, the early church was a missionary church and believer's baptism was both the NT practice and the early church practice until infant baptism started entering into the practice around 215 AD - but believer's baptism continued both together for a while until the infant baptism practice became entrenched in the European/Mediterranean world Christian culture.
Either way, my point was simple: Philip was a deacon, Apollo was a believer, and both baptized: yet, in both cases, Apostles (Peter and Paul) have to be sent to "finish the job", by giving the Holy Ghost to these converts (Philip's and Apollo's) through the laying on of hands.
Ken,
have you taken the time to consider Matthew 15:22-28 and Mark 9:17-26, as well as the fact that Jewish baptism (which pre-dates Christ, and was still practiced in NT times) did NOT exclude the believers' children ?
Lvka,
those passages have nothing to do with infant baptism at all.
Christ healed them; yes, we believe that. no relation to infant baptism at all.
Never heard anyone make that connection before.
What a stretch!
Hi Ken.
Good to hear from you!
I have long ago lost interest in this discussion, being convinced that believer's or credo or disciple's baptism is the only Biblical view;
Well, perhaps you should be more open minded about it then...and look afresh at the strong evidence for IB. Even if you are not convinced, perhaps it will bolster your current understanding and help articulate it.
and the earliest view in the early church during the 1-4 Centuries. infant baptism started in the 3rd century - 215 AD - Hippolytus is the earliest record of it. Tertullian was right on this issue, as we already discussed.
What evidence do you have that IB started in the 3rd century? We have testimony from Origen, in the first half of the 3rd century that it was the universal practice of the church....so that alone probably puts us at least into the second century. And we have Irenaues comments that give strong evidence that he received from the apostles the practice of both IB and the doctrine of BR. Quoting him,
"He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
"‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment34 [A.D. 190]).
cont...
But I disagree with your above statement, the early church was a missionary church and believer's baptism was both the NT practice and the early church practice until infant baptism started entering into the practice around 215 AD - but believer's baptism continued both together for a while until the infant baptism practice became entrenched in the European/Mediterranean world Christian culture.
Yes, the NT church was a missionary church that baptized adult converts after profession of faith...and baptized the children of the converts prior professed faith. So yes, even those communions that practice IB, also practice BB. Further, the children of believers are considered and treated in the NT as believers/Christians anyhow...so in that sense, we baptize believers as well in all cases.
If you follow the Berean example, in which the NT believers, prior ant NT scripture, tested what the apostles were saying by the OT....there would be no dramatic change in who the sign would be given to, and thereby certainly would keep on giving the sign to these children of believers.
in Him,
joe
Ken,
The faith of a parent imputed on the child. It's about context: both biblical and historical (what I said concerning Jewish baptism in Christ's time).
My point was that the Ephesians in the beginning of Acts 19 are the same ones to whom Apollo preached in the ending of Acts 18, as is clear from the text. They were converted by Apollo (18:28, 18:26) who knew only of John's water-baptism (18:25), and was still in need of perfection in matters of faith (18:26): hence their own lack-of-knowledge, since their own teacher knew nothing of these things. He knew only "the things of the Lord" (ie, Christ), since indeed he believed Him (Jesus) to be the Messiah (18:28), but about the Holy Ghost he knew nothing at THAT time.
You are making an assumption of sameness that is not stated and does not correspond to the text. As said and showed, Rather than the Ephesian disciples being like Apollos who believed in the Lord and taught about Him, they did not know that “they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. (Acts 19:4) “ And rather than Apollos knowing “nothing of these things,” being like them, who had “not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost,” (Acts 19:2) even as a Jew Apollos would have known of the Holy Spirit, and which even a basic knowledge of Christ would include! (cf. Acts 10:38)
Meanwhile, you have avoided dealing with how Apollos received the Holy Spirit since according to you (not the Scriptures) he was ignorant of this, yet had no evident contact with an apostles to experientially supply this need. Instead the text states that he “spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord,” even “boldly in the synagogue,” being fervent in the spirit, and his need was simply more complete knowledge.
As I wrote (a few times) before:
You seem to think that the giving of the Holy Spirit through the laying on of hands is the same as it being present in ANY manner or intensity in a person... this is simply not the case.
The Holy Spirit is nor an “it”, while you have not explained at all how persons can have the Holy Spirit present in them in some manner some intensity yet not have “received the Holy Spirit.” What believers had the Holy Spirit present in them but did not received the Holy Spirit? Did the Ethiopian eunuch?
Either way, my point was simple: Philip was a deacon, Apollo was a believer, and both baptized: yet, in both cases, Apostles (Peter and Paul) have to be sent to "finish the job", by giving the Holy Ghost to these converts (Philip's and Apollo's) through the laying on of hands.
Which again leaves the Ethiopian eunuch without the Holy Spirit.
Pt. 2
have you taken the time to consider Matthew 15:22-28 and Mark 9:17-26, as well as the fact that Jewish baptism (which pre-dates Christ, and was still practiced in NT times) did NOT exclude the believers' children ?
You should not compare a child having an evil spirit, which is uninvited and requires no consent or ceremony, with receiving the Holy Spirit, which is promised upon repentance and faith, and (according to you) requires a ceremony. And Matthew 15:22-28 and Mark 9:17-26 can only be forced to say that infants had an evil spirit, versus older children.
And as for the extra Scriptural Jewish baptism of infants, that is not what Scripture called for, but circumcision, which they did not see as a type of baptism as they did both. Nor is there any record that the baptism of John (which was for Jews) was applies to infants, but that it required repentance.
In his oft referenced 900 page work, Everett Ferguson “comes to the conclusion than Jewish baptismal practices cannot be taken as the direct antecedent for Christian baptismal practices. Not only is the precise chronological relationship between the Jewish baptism of proselytes and the Christian baptism unclear, but are there also a number of important differences between them (although Jewish proselyte baptisms were also one-time, full immersions, they differed from Christian baptism in being self-administered (81-82)). The heart of the rabbinic conversion ceremony of proselyte males was also circumcision and not baptism.” — http://erb.kingdomnow.org/featured-baptism-in-the-early-church-by-everett-ferguson-vol-3-2/
Perhaps asking someone of your own faith to read that short passage in Acts 18/19 and then explain it to you will help better ? There are many disputed and/or unclear passages in the Scriptures: that one isn't among them.
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It leaves the Ethiopian without the fulness of the Holy Spirit, not utterly devoid of it. I didn't say that Philip's and Apollos' baptisms were mere cermonial baths.
I also don't recall saying that the OT righteous were utterly devoid of the presence of God's Holy Spirit. All I said was that whatever was there in the OT, it cannot be compared to what we have now through Christ (John 1:16 and 10:10). The overwhelming, abundant outpouring of the Holy Spirit in NT times cannot be compared in degrees of magnitude to what came before: otherwise, entire passages of the NT would make no sense.
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Exorcisms are part of the baptism service (as I said before). And the idea is that parental faith is imputed to the child in their care (ie, it is neither unrequired, nor does it work for the believer alone, but also for his or her children).
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A difference for whose existence you have NO actual proof...
What we DO have proof for are the following things:
- Jews baptized children;
- early Christians baptized children;
- the Bible is a positive witness to "proxy" parental faith;
- ancient societies + OT + NT were of the opinion that family-fathers had complete power over their whole household;
- ancient societies + OT + NT viewed the family as the unit of society, NOT the individual person;
Add to this that pilgrimiges and synagogue worship were done with the whole family: the Jews in Acts 2 did not go there "alone": they brought their families with them. Add to this that "man and woman are one" an that "Father and Son are one". Do you understand why all evidence -both biblical and historical- points to the contrary of what you hold to be true ?
Why do you like to treat the Bible in disharmony with itself and with what we know from human history ? I don't understand that. It seems so absurd. So contrary to reality. Why do you consistently refuse to check your own ideas against those of the Bible ? It simply makes no sense whatsoever.
Perhaps asking someone of your own faith to read that short passage in Acts 18/19 and then explain it to you will help better ? There are many disputed and/or unclear passages in the Scriptures: that one isn't among them.
And such response can hardly overcome the evidence which refutes your equating “fervent in the spirit” Jewish Apollos who boldly and diligently taught the things of the Lord, with the ignorant “certain disciples” of Ephesus who did not even know there was a Holy Spirit.
It leaves the Ethiopian without the fulness of the Holy Spirit, not utterly devoid of it. I didn't say that Philip's and Apollos' baptisms were mere cermonial baths.
You distinctly said that the Spirit was absent, then stated He was ambiguously active in some way, and now you state that they were at least “not utterly devoid of it.” However, i requested a clear affirmation as to whether they were born again, being regenerated, with the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, which you seem to be reluctant to clearly give.
the idea is that parental faith is imputed to the child in their care..
That is a nice idea but one for which you have NO actual proof.
A difference for whose existence you have NO actual proof...
You tend to neglect to provide what you are responding to, but i assume you are referring to Ferguson's statement, for which it would be fitting to see the link and book, but as for your similarities,
- Jews baptized children,
Yet they did not consider this as being the fulfillment of circumcision, while the Jews washed a lot of things in going beyond what was written, but which the Lord reproved due to their false presuppositions. (Mk. 7:2-16) and extra Scriptural Jewish ceremonial practices, even if they involved infants, do not overcome the requirements of hearing, repentance and faith which the Holy Spirit explicitly provides as prerequisites for baptism, which the baptism of John required also.
ancient societies + OT + NT were of the opinion that family-fathers had complete power over their whole household; ...the family as the unit of society, NOT the individual person;
No one has the power to make you believe, but not only families were corporately sanctified due to the presence of a believer (thus not just Lot but his house was given deliverance) but nations, as “blessed is the whole nation whose God is the Lord,” but which does not make all those who enter into those blessings to be saved, as this requires personal repentance and faith.
Do you understand why all evidence -both biblical and historical- points to the contrary of what you hold to be true ?
Rather, Scripture reveals the error of the Jews teaching for doctrines the traditions of men, which included extraneous washings, and Jewish baptism could not take away sin in any case or make one risen with Christ. And again, there is no manifest evidence that the NT baptized infants, but Scripture explicitly teaches personal repentance and faith as necessary for conversion, and preceding baptism and expressed by it.
As shown, all you have for infant baptism is the brief mere mention of two households being baptized, yet besides clear commands to believe, the other two accounts of household baptisms describes them as all believing, while Scripture teaches infants do not morally know how to choose good over evil.
Pt. 2
Why do you like to treat the Bible in disharmony with itself and with what we know from human history
Disharmony? Your harmony requires forcing God and texts to confirm to your doctrine which is based on tradition and selective use of text, which are not in harmony with others. You act like a Pharisee in perpetuating as doctrines the extra Scriptural traditions of men, and use them to dismiss explicit texts which counter them.
Why do you consistently refuse to check your own ideas against those of the Bible
That is pure insolence, as it has been me who has manifestly compared Scripture with Scripture the most, such as in exposing your exegesis in making the 70 of Lk. 10 into apostles and Ananias as one of them, and reading infant baptism into texts, and making Apollos as ignorant as the disciples of Ephesus, and showing the laying on of apostolic hands to receive the Holy Spirit as based on two text, which is not uniform with others. And that infants cannot repent and believe, and that this is what Scripture clearly requires before being baptized, while your last recourse here is to tradition, but perpetuating traditions based on giving heed to Jewish commandments of men is not sound.
Bye.
Repentance & faith? Yes. Personal? No. As one can see throughout the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments reveal a corporative view of man(kind), as opposed to an individualistic one, which came as a result of Western-European Enlightment some 500 years ago. That's why there were no deniers of infant baptism before the Reformation, which happened at the same time as the Enlightment. You are adding to the text ideas that are foreign to it and to its inspired writers, whose world-view was different from ours.
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If infant baptism was a Jewish deviation that went against Apostolic teaching, how come that neither Christ [Matthew 23], nor the Apostles ever condemned it ? More than that, we know that early Christians practiced it.
The only difference between John's baptism and (standard) Jewish baptism was that he baptized JEWS: only pagans converting from idolatry were (normally) suppposed to be baptized (washed, cleansed). This was his (and God's) way of saying to them: "repent! you live like pagans, eventhough you think of yourselvea as being Jewish !".
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How was I ambiguous when I clearly and repeatedly stated that the eunuch was regenerated ? Yet, as we can see, merely believing and being baptized doesn't mean that the fulness of the Holy Spirit descends in the same manner as when the Apostles (and presbyters) lay their hands over people. There is a clearly noticeable difference between the two, which, if it would not exist, whole passages of Acts would make no sense.
I stand by my advice: Feel free to seek the opinion of someone from your own faith, whom you deem both pious, knowledgeable, and trust-worthy, about the interpretation of Acts 18-19.
PeacebyJesus.
Sorry for the delay and to hear about your arthritis.
Given that, instead of having longer posts, dealing with line by line rebuttals, perhaps we should take a concept at a time and transition to end the conversation at least with agreeing to disagree.
Assuming you are okay with this...I will proceed to bring up the first point in your last series.
Joe, Nor do I need any specific examples. We have no explicit teaching to baptize or not baptize infants.
Again, you certainly do, as you have clear commands to teach, repent and believe which precede baptism, and incomplete correspondence between circumcision and baptism. As with Peter, (Acts 2:38; 10:43,47) Paul once again affirms faith goes with baptism in stating: "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. " (Galatians 3:25-27)
First, I do not think that I do need to show an explicit example...because it if can be shown that the concept of corp solid is continued in the NT, which I have, then that gives context for the households. I see your paradigm completely changing the context of the time and meaning of household arbitrarily. So, in light of the context of the time, and actually probably 5 household baptisms out of 9 that I count, it seems the strangest idea to think that there were none under 3.
Second, why would I need an example, when you hold to an example of baptizing one of age that was brought up in a christian household, is not required?
Third, there are several important doctrines, like the Trinity/2 natures of Christ/etc...that are pieced together from all the biblical evidence.
Fourth, as said, the command to repent/believe says nothing about if children of these believers should get the sign...since this was the same with Abraham. He first believed and then the sign, and gave it to his seed.
Fifth, Gal 3:25, has no bearing on the sign or who it should be give to. The sign originally was given before the schoolmaster appeared. We are free from the law, but obviously not the covenant the the Lord is our God.
In Him,
joe
Lvka,
As one can see throughout the entire Bible, both Old and New Testaments reveal a corporative view of man(kind), as opposed to an individualistic one, which came as a result of Western-European Enlightment some 500 years ago.
Again, you are reading more into this than is there. As regards corporate sanctification, it is true that Israel as a whole was holy, set apart, but that did not make them all to be saved. Likewise even the unbelieving spouse is sanctified, set apart by the believing one, as are the children, (1Cor. 7:14) but that did not make the unbelieving spouse or those who had yet to choose the Lord Jesus to be born again.
That's why there were no deniers of infant baptism before the Reformation, which happened at the same time as the Enlightment.
Now you are basically reading your supposedly “enlightened” view into history, as there certainly were those who at least opposed infant baptism if not (as far as we know) perhaps utterly denying it. Besides the church “fathers” referenced before, Anthony Lane refers to "the situation in the early centuries where the two forms of baptism existed side by side, both because of the large influx of converts and because by no means all Christians brought their babies to baptism,” and thus it can be surmised that some denied one of the other, though both were overall tolerated in the earliest post apostolic centuries, before being normalized in the fifth century or later.
And the pro paedobaptist patristic scholar David Wright states,
As Leithart helpfully summarizes, 'the earliest baptismal liturgies…were constructed on something like Baptist assumptions, even when children were included'….Leithart fails to draw the obvious conclusion from this evidence, that infant baptism can never have been the norm in this early period….The timescale of infant baptism’s long reign extends from the early medieval period, from about the sixth century, that is to say, after Augustine of Hippo, who died in 430. It was he who provided the theology that led to infant baptism becoming general practice for the first time in the history of the church, perhaps in the later fifth century, more likely in the 500s or even later…
And,
"We have tracked, largely in this lecture by attending to the texts of Western baptismal development, a truly massive change in the history of Christ’s church. From being a company recruited by intentional response to the gospel imperative to discipleship and baptism, it became a body enrolled from birth. It was arguably one of the greatest sea changes in the story of Christianity. It led, as we have seen, to the formation of Christendom, comprising a Christian empire, Christian nations or peoples. Christianity became a matter of heredity, not decision. The famous and telling words of Tertullian, fiunt, non nascuntur, Christiani, 'people are made, not born, Christians', were turned upside down." (p. 74)
However, these learned opinions are not the determinative basis for my position, but Scripture, which reveals hearing, understanding, repentance and wholehearted faith as the conditions for baptism, and infants as not having that ability, which your attempts to the contrary cannot overcome.
And with that, i think further exchange is unneeded.
Joe,
Sorry for the delay and to hear about your arthritis.
Thanks, but it really the mental fatigue, concentration (blood sugar?) that is more the problem, but some days are much better than others. But God rewards the effort.
First, I do not think that I do need to show an explicit example...because it if can be shown that the concept of corp solid is continued in the NT, which I have, then that gives context for the households.
No one has shown that degree of correspondence to circumcision, nor as explained above, does the corporative view of man and national and familial sanctification render all to be spiritually redeemed, and no one was born again by proxy faith under the New Covenant.
I see your paradigm completely changing the context of the time and meaning of household arbitrarily. So, in light of the context of the time, and actually probably 5 household baptisms out of 9 that I count, it seems the strangest idea to think that there were none under 3.
There is nothing arbitrary about going by what Scripture most clearly states, for while you insistent that Christians were like Jews in circumcising infants, and in baptizing them in following extra Scriptural traditions, the NT states that,
John's baptism was that of repentance, (Mt. 3:11)
and repentance was required for baptism in Acts 2:38, and which easily could involved whole households (with the promise to their children and to all the called contextually subjecting all to that condition);
and belief (which entails repentance) preceded corporate baptisms in Acts 8:12, and which easily could have involved whole households;
and which was the condition for baptism in Acts 8:36-38;
and which was the condition of Paul in the next baptism; (Acts 9:18)
as it was in the next corporate baptisms in Acts 10:47;
as was evident in the baptism of Lydia, and belief also would be most consistent in the baptism of her household (Acts 16:15) (and i think she was single), this being one of the only two brief statements of household baptisms that do no mention believing;
and the next account (Acts 16:33,34) of a household baptism states that they all believed, as the jailer was “believing in God with all his house”
likewise the next record (Acts 18:8) of a household baptism also states that he “believed on the Lord with all his house;”
the next baptisms (Acts 19:3-5) were also that of belief;
and belief also would be most consistent in the brief statement of Paul that he “baptized also the household of Stephanas household,” Paul going on to state that he came not to baptize, but to preach the gospel, (Col 1:17) which requires hearing, and whose gospel was that of repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. ((Acts 20:21; 26:22) And who also affirmed that those who were baptized into Christ were those who believed, the two going together, (Gal. 3:27) while stating that that what baptism represents is by faith. (Col. 2:12)
For the gospel of Paul (Gal. 1:6-9) the “power of God unto salvation to everyone which believeth” (Rm. 1:16) and which message of salvation he distinguished from its response in baptism, (1Cor. 1:17) required personal repentance for conversion, and the only text referring to circumcision being likened to baptism is in regards to what it represents (or what baptism effects according to BR), but that this is realized through faith.
In addition, Scripture affirms a time in which souls were not morally cognizant, (Dt. 1:39; Is. 7:16) and attempts to prove infants can believe fail to do so.
Thus not only does Scripture command repentance and faith in order to be baptized, and that conversion requires personal faith, but there is no account of souls being baptized who did not believe, while affirming that households did where any further details are given, and substantiating young children being not able to repent/believe.
Pt. 2
Second, why would I need an example, when you hold to an example of baptizing one of age that was brought up in a christian household, is not required?
Because it is already clearly established that baptism was for believers, the two going together, with faith being needed for conversion and whole households believing, and there is nothing to support that it was for those who could not be convicted of their need for salvation, and identify and believe on the Lord Jesus. You thus must read that into the 2 mere mentions of households having been baptized, or force circumcision into more correspondence that the text supplies, or make infants able to repent and believe. Paul regarded Timothy as a believer, not because he was baptized as an infant by his believing mother or grandmother, but because he was persuaded that he also actually had the same faith in him. (2Tim. 1:5)
And “the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call,” (Acts 2:41) rather than supporting paedobaptism, cannot be separated from the conditions set forth for the receiving of that promise, that of repentance being required for the baptism which expresses it. (Acts 2:38)
Third, there are several important doctrines, like the Trinity/2 natures of Christ/etc...that are pieced together from all the biblical evidence.
Certainly, but as with repentant faith being required for conversion and baptism, we have clear statements and support for Jesus being God, being ontologically one with the Father, and possessing attributes, titles, and glory that only God possess, with the Holy Spirit also being a person and Divine, along with God referring to Himself in the plural, all of which reveals what “one” means, and making the Trinity necessary to reconcile Scripture with itself, with revelation being progressive in nature.
In contrast, in the light of the New Testament all you have is one mention of circumcision being a type of baptism, but that the resurrection the latter speaks of is realized by faith, and that faith is necessary for conversion, and that this precedes the receiving of the sign of faith, with only credobaptism being manifest.
Fourth, as said, the command to repent/believe says nothing about if children of these believers should get the sign... .
Which is a very conspicuous omission, uncharacteristic of the Holy Spirit considering how critical this doctrine is according to paedobaptists. Likewise the Holy Spirit never states that the command to keep the 7th day sabbath is abrogated and replaced by the 1st day (though it was typological of redemption rest, and best fits under the ceremonial law), but He never reiterates it under the New Covenant, and only records the 1st day as a specific day of Christian meetings.
since this was the same with Abraham. He first believed and then the sign, and gave it to his seed.
But which did not make faith necessary in order to be circumcised, and it shows that it is faith that appropriates justification, not an act. And the example here is Abraham, typifying believers under grace, who first believed and then the sign of circumcision. Likewise baptism is only to be for those who like Abraham, first believe.
Pt. 3
Fifth, Gal 3:25, has no bearing on the sign or who it should be give to. The sign originally was given before the schoolmaster appeared. We are free from the law, but obviously not the covenant the the Lord is our God.
Gal. 5:24-27 certainly does have have bearing on what type of person the sign should be give to under the New Covenant, as it states that “the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith,” and that “ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ,” thus once again showing that faith goes with baptism, versus being given to those who did not sin, and are incapable of choosing the Light over darkness, which is what those who come to the Lord Jesus do. (Jn. 3:19-21)
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; " (Acts 3:19)
Btwn both of you, I do not think even more exchange on this is really needed. For me, i see nothing overcoming the weight of Scripture which supports credobaptism, and see paedobaptsm as overall fostering perfunctory professions (though not restricted to that) and ecclesiolatry, and a false confidence that one is a Christian, replacing preaching which convicts men “of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment,” (Jn. 16:9) and their need for their own “day of salvation.”
And while I do believe there have been men of true faith in the Lord Jesus who yet baptized infants, such as Whitefield and Wesley, what is missing is their kind of preaching.
Thanks for the exchange.
Thanks, but it really the mental fatigue, concentration (blood sugar?) that is more the problem, but some days are much better than others. But God rewards the effort.
Okay...well, will pray for you brother. Actually, my Dr., due to my heart surgery/issues, has me on a very low sugar/carb diet, plus no wheat. If something like that may help.
No one has shown that degree of correspondence to circumcision, nor as explained above, does the corporative view of man and national and familial sanctification render all to be spiritually redeemed, and no one was born again by proxy faith under the New Covenant.
First, I do think we have shown a clear, explicit correspondence to circumsicm. They are not identical, but what they signify is essentially the same - 1) it is the sign of the covenants 2) removal of sin 3) of righteousness 4) of communion with God. We also see in Acts 15 the no longer need for it, but yet, it was never claimed that the sign should not be given to infants - but instead Paul argues in Col that we are circumcized by baptism.
Second, concerning corp solid, we do see this explicitly continued in I Cor 7. But, suppose one could argue two ways (Lutheran & Presbyt)...in saying that baptism regenerates or it does not. But in both cases, the continuation of CS gives evidence to continue the long lasting practice of given the sign to children of infants...regardless if you think they are in fact redeemed salvifictly.
There is nothing arbitrary about going by what Scripture most clearly states, for while you insistent that Christians were like Jews in circumcising infants, and in baptizing them in following extra Scriptural traditions, the NT states that,
John's baptism was that of repentance, (Mt. 3:11)
I do believe it is arbitrary because repentance is not new to the NT or in relation to the sign of the covenant. This was also present in the OT, as we explicitly see with Abraham. Also, I do not think John's baptism was identical to Christ's baptism, as John even clearly testifies to (along with the NT). But even if they were, it would not matter anyhow. Those able to repent should, of course...but children of believers since day one of redemption history had a special place, and were part of the covenant. So, in light of this, I think the fact that the NT speaks of repentance says absolutely nothing about if the sign should be given to their offspring.
will cont...but have to attend to my child this moment. :)
For the gospel of Paul (Gal. 1:6-9) the “power of God unto salvation to everyone which believeth” (Rm. 1:16) and which message of salvation he distinguished from its response in baptism, (1Cor. 1:17) required personal repentance for conversion, and the only text referring to circumcision being likened to baptism is in regards to what it represents (or what baptism effects according to BR), but that this is realized through faith.
Well, yes, those who give the sign to their children confess that faith is essential, and without it, there is no salvation. Adult converts have to have a profession of faith, before the sign...but we have no evidence of removal in the NT of given the sign to their offspring, and evidence of continuation, with the principle of CS and households. The NT does not show that baptism represents...but does - repeatedly.
In addition, Scripture affirms a time in which souls were not morally cognizant, (Dt. 1:39; Is. 7:16) and attempts to prove infants can believe fail to do so.
Thus not only does Scripture command repentance and faith in order to be baptized, and that conversion requires personal faith, but there is no account of souls being baptized who did not believe, while affirming that households did where any further details are given, and substantiating young children being not able to repent/believe.
Well, I think I have presented a decent case that infants have faith, as shown in Jesus, and the Psalms which were the liturgy for ALL. Though I understand you disagree. Perhaps a better communicator would convince you. I have ordered Lusks' "Paedofaith" from my library loan, which may help me articulate it better.
Concerning households...of course, I think it gives great weight to my argument. The meaning of household to the first century Jew fits my view and completely contradicts yours. Plus, the 2 examples where additional info is given, does not give credence to your view. As Greg Strawbridge writes: n the Philippian jailer passage (16:31-34) and the Corinthian passage with Crispus (18:8), the Greek texts use singular verbs, not the plural verbs, to de- scribe the action of believing. These texts do not say, the jailer (or Crispus) “and (kai)” his household “believed” (with a plural verb). This would be one way Luke could have nuanced the text to indicate the equal action of each member in believing. This is something Luke surely would have said if he was seeking to correct the covenantal household concept established in the previous millennia of Biblical history. Instead, these texts teach what any Old Testament believer might have expected: the jailer, the household head, “rejoiced (singular verb) greatly, with all his house (panoikei, an adverb), having believed (pepisteukos, par- ticiple, singular) in God” (16:34, ASV); and Crispus, the household head, “believed (episteusen, verb, singular) in the Lord with (sun) all his household” (18:8). However, observe Luke’s careful language indicating that baptism is adminis- tered to each member of the Jailer’s household: “he was baptized, he and (kai) all his household” (16:33).
cont...(will finish later - gotta run)
Saint Augustine became great in the West, but not in the East or Orient: yet all historic Churches practice infant baptism, despite the fact that the Eastern Orthodox find his theology problematic, and the Orientals [Syrians, Assyrians, Indians] never really heard of him.
Because (why I have to show an ex, while u dont) it is already clearly established that baptism was for believers, the two going together, with faith being needed for conversion and whole households believing, and there is nothing to support that it was for those who could not be convicted of their need for salvation, and identify and believe on the Lord Jesus.
Well, no, it has not already been established...that is what you are assuming and where our disagreement is, that baptism is strictly for only confessing believers. The NT does show that adult converts must profess faith prior baptism, but it does not show this for the children thereof, unless you assume it. So, to be consistent, under your demand of me giving an example, you would need to do the same. Remember, we both are dealing with implicit evidence as pertains to the status of believers' children. If it can be showed from other evidence and implications, that the practice of given the sign to infants remained, than I really do not know how you could argue that I need a specific example of infant baptism. I assume there are things you believe that are not specifically explicit as your are requiring for IB. (i.e. women receiving communion perhaps)
Joel Beeke writes: Baptists often dismiss this covenantal argument by harking back to verse 38, arguing that since Peter says “repent and be baptized,” baptism must always follow repentance. Since infants are not yet able to repent, they ought not be baptized. To such reasoning, we would posit three responses. First, the word “and” between “repent” and “be baptized” is a coordinate and not a causal conjunction. That is to say, though both things are true, there is not necessarily a causal connection between them. “Repent” and “be baptized” are two coordinate commands. Acts 2:38 does not require that we are to be baptized because we have repented, nor does it say that it is wrong to baptize someone who has not repented. Second, the causal conjunction, “for,” at the beginning of Acts 2:39 indicates that verse 38 is part of a larger thought which is concluded in verse 39. Attempting to understand repentance and baptism in verse 38, therefore, without examining verse 39 is refusing to listen to the whole text. “For” in verse 39 indicates that that verse is giving the reason why we are to repent and be baptized, namely, “for the promise is to you and to your children, and to all that are afar off.” In other words, those who have received the promise of God of the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit are qualified to be baptized, and, Peter clearly says, that includes them and their children. Third, an argument against infant baptism from Acts 2:38 is ipso facto an argument against infant salvation. If infants cannot be baptized because they are incapable of repentance and faith, then they cannot be saved for the same reason. The use of such verses as Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38 to argue that repentance and faith are required for baptism also argues that repentance and faith are required for salvation, thereby a priori consigning all infants incapable of repentance and faith to perdition.
Paul regarded Timothy as a believer, not because he was baptized as an infant by his believing mother or grandmother, but because he was persuaded that he also actually had the same faith in him. (2Tim. 1:5)
Not because of baptism, no. I agree. Timothy learned from infancy the scriptures and Judeo-Christian faith, which teaches to give the sign to infants of believers. Timothy had faith, of course. Those who practice IB, teach the necessity of faith as well.
cont...
And “the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call,” (Acts 2:41) rather than supporting paedobaptism, cannot be separated from the conditions set forth for the receiving of that promise, that of repentance being required for the baptism which expresses it. (Acts 2:38)
Well, I do not separate them. Those who practice IB demand repentance as the child grows. We repent and die to ourselves daily. If faith is lacking, so are the benefits of baptism. Faith can die, and needs to be nurtured...as we are commanded to bring the children up in the discipline and nurture of the Lord. From my perspective, the only party that separates the text from its context is your paradigm. To the first century Jew, to you and your children is a reiteration of the entire redemptive history that God has used, that included the sign and its benefits to the children (incl infants) of believers.
Certainly, but as with repentant faith being required for conversion and baptism, we have clear statements and support for Jesus being God, being ontologically one with the Father, and possessing attributes, titles, and glory that only God possess, with the Holy Spirit also being a person and Divine,..
Okay, then. This seems to admit to my whole point of not needing a specific explicit example of IB in order to show its validity. My 5 points were only arguing this one concept.
In contrast, in the light of the New Testament all you have is one mention of circumcision being a type of baptism, but that the resurrection the latter speaks of is realized by faith, and that faith is necessary for conversion, and that this precedes the receiving of the sign of faith, with only credobaptism being manifest.
Really brother? All I have is one mention of circum being a type of baptism? Common now. In order to have a good faith discussion, comments like this discouraging. Certainly, much more evidence and reason for evidence of IB has been given. I do not disagree, though some IB do, that faith is necessary (that is why it is provided in baptism). Also, only credobaptism is not manifest. It is, only by assumptions that I think the NT (and OT) show are false assumptions. Only if one dramatically and instantly changes the meaning of household...is credo only manifest.
Fourth, as said, the command to repent/believe says nothing about if children of these believers should get the sign... .
Which is a very conspicuous omission, uncharacteristic of the Holy Spirit considering how critical this doctrine is according to paedobaptists. Likewise the Holy Spirit never states that the command to keep the 7th day sabbath is abrogated and replaced by the 1st day (though it was typological of redemption rest, and best fits under the ceremonial law), but He never reiterates it under the New Covenant, and only records the 1st day as a specific day of Christian meetings.
Well, again, this omission fits my paradigm perfectly well...if the status of the children in the NT did not change. But just to reiterate, the repent/baptize concept has nothing to do with the children of believers, any more than it did in Abraham's case, to which the new covenant is fulfilled and based upon.
The issue of the Sabbath confirms my whole point...in that a specific example of IB is not required in order for its validity.
cont...
Wow; you guys never give up do you?
Wow; you guys never give up do you?
Your point being ? :-)
Joe,
First, I do think we have shown a clear, explicit correspondence to circumsicm.
Nothing new here. The correspondence is to what it signifies, but as said, this is realized “through the faith of the operation of God.”
Second, concerning corp solid, we do see this explicitly continued in I Cor 7
“For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife...” (1Cor. 7:14) As said, all in the family were set apart to be as treated in a special way in this life due to one believing parent, as in the case of Lot. But that did not make the unconverted in the family or nation saved from their sins. The unbelieving would actually be worthy of greater damnation is they did not convert. (Lk. 12:48)
I do believe it is arbitrary because repentance is not new to the NT or in relation to the sign of the covenant.... children of believers since day one of redemption history had a special place, and were part of the covenant
You can believe that if you want, but while as said above, the family of one believer is “sanctified,” this did not make them born again, and all we have is repeated statements that actual conversion requires repentant faith, not salvation by proxy faith or repentance infants.
Well, yes, those who give the sign to their children confess that faith is essential, and without it, there is no salvation.
But infants cannot exercise faith, and there is no statement or manifest example of souls being converted under the New Covenant apart from exercising personal faith.
Well, I think I have presented a decent case that infants have faith, as shown in Jesus, and the Psalms which were the liturgy for ALL.
These were dealt with and do not speak of infants exercising repentant faith.
....the Philippian jailer passage (16:31-34) and the Corinthian passage with Crispus (18:8), the Greek texts use singular verbs, not the plural verbs, to de- scribe the action of believing
No expert here on Greek but of course it is singular, as it refers to what the principal subject did, but the key word is “with” as in “with all his house,” meaning they each also did as he did.
The same word is used in Acts 8:12 (“But when they believed Philip...”) as well as 18:8b to describe many believing. “And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.”
>Because [why I have to show an ex, while u dont] it is already clearly established that baptism was for believers, the two going together, with faith being needed for conversion and whole households believing, and there is nothing to support that it was for those who could not be convicted of their need for salvation, and identify and believe on the Lord Jesus.<
Well, no, it has not already been established...The NT does show that adult converts must profess faith prior baptism, but it does not show this for the children thereof, unless you assume it.
It has indeed, and your argument is that it does not specify that infants must, but i take such statements as salvation is to “everyone that believeth” to be inclusive, and innocent infants cannot believe, while the unreasonable assumption is on your part in assuming they can believe, or that baptism is so like circumcision that an exception is made for those who cannot believe. However, as shown, baptism signifies a reality which is realized by faith.
Joel Beeke... posit three responses:
As shown, conversion requiring personal faith is supported all through the NT so much that it requires pleading all baptized infants miraculously believe in order to conform to it , and is not restricted to Acts 2:38, and Beeke's attempts to negate that will not overcome them.
Pt. 2
If infants cannot be baptized because they are incapable of repentance and faith, then they cannot be saved for the same reason.
Which presumes that God sends souls to Hell based on something they are not culpable for, (contra Dt. 24:16; 2Ki 14:5,6; 2Ch 25:4; Jer 31:29,30; Eze 18:20) contrary to being judged according to what every person has done in his own body, (2Cor. 5:10; Rv. 20:12,13) even though in this cursed earth we realize the effects of other's actions, whether evil (Rm. 5:14) or good. (Jn. 3:38; 1Cor. 7:14) We inherit a nature prone to sin, thus souls do, (Rm. 5:12) but man is judged in accordance to his culpability in acting that out.
Timothy learned from infancy the scriptures and Judeo-Christian faith, which teaches to give the sign to infants of believers.
Rather, he learned the faith Paul preached, and which gospel no one may controvert, (Gal. 1:6-9) which again, was always that of " repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ," (Acts 20:21) and that belief goes with baptism. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. " (Galatians 3:26-27)
Well, I do not separate them... If faith is lacking, so are the benefits of baptism.
You do separate them, as according to you one need not believe to be baptized, unless you can make infants morally able to choose to believe on the Lord Jesus.
To the first century Jew,...
That is really all you have, the assumption that baptism is as circumcision in application, yet as said, throughout the NT conversion and baptism is by personal faith, and the very text on circumcision being likened to baptism is in regards to what it signifies, and which is a reality that comes through faith.
Really brother? All I have is one mention of circum being a type of baptism?
Yes, that is essentially as i see it, as Scripture does not support infants being able to believe (unless a miracle can be shown to take place), or provide any manifest example of paedobaptism, while clearly teaching showing all must repent and that salvation is by faith, and baptism is for believers.
Only if one dramatically and instantly changes the meaning of household...is credo only manifest.
Not so, for as shown, all you have for support is the mere mention of two separate households households simply having been baptized, while more details in others show a collective belief, consistent with the commands to believe in order to be converted and baptized.
Well, again, this omission fits my paradigm perfectly well
Which i find assumed, and which does not find overcome the weight of evidence against it.
The issue of the Sabbath confirms my whole point...in that a specific example of IB is not required in order for its validity.
Instead, it demonstrates how a specific statement is not needed that no one is exempt from the requirement of personal faith in order to be baptized, for as in the Lord's day, only salvation by personal faith is clearly stated, and only credobaptism is manifest.
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise." (Ephesians 1:13)
And with that i think i am done with this thread, as i find your argumentation unconvincing as you do my weight of evidences, and overall it has been quite redundant and has become even more so.
Ephesians 1:13 describes the structure of the early Christian baptism service: reading/preaching the Gospel, reciting the Creed, and chrismation following baptism. The words "the SEAL of the gift of the Holy Spirit" are used until today.
PeacebyJesus.
Finishing up your Pt 3 above...
Gal. 5:24-27 certainly does have have bearing on what type of person the sign should be give to under the New Covenant, as it states that “the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith,” and that “ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ,” thus once again showing that faith goes with baptism, versus being given to those who did not sin, and are incapable of choosing the Light over darkness, which is what those who come to the Lord Jesus do. (Jn. 3:19-21)
First, yes, faith and baptism are inseparably and directly related. Second, the "schoolmaster" does not replace the original promise to Abraham and his SEED, since the schoolmaster was after the promise, and temporary, with a given purpose. Whereas the promise to Abraham and his SEED, is everlasting. So, this would in no way give evidence that the sign of the promise to Abraham and his SEED...has now drastically changed. No, it is explicitly repeated to "you and your children".
But, the Galations passage does prove that baptism is more than a mere sign, to be sure. One puts on Christ, communes with Christ. Just as circumcism was communion with God.
"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; " (Acts 3:19)
Yes. And your point? Acts 22:16: And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’
Baptism washes away sin, like circumcism removal of defilement.
in Him,
Joe
PeacebyJesus & Ken.
Instead of going through your comments line by line again in your last two points, especially seeing you may be winding down...are you really meaning to suggest that the scriptures have to explicitly teach something in order for it to be valid?
That doctrines arising from inferences and implicit evidence are invalid?
That would my point of those 5 points which you seem to want to argue with. All of them even.
And Ken, I am just curious if you would as well have this same opinion as well. I have never heard this argument before.
in Him,
Joe
Joe,
I have not had time to keep up or read any of these posts for a long time now. (mostly between you and Peace by Jesus and Lvka)
If you want to take time to see where I was engaging with you, it is where I was commenting, then I stopped, as I did not have time to keep reading yours and peace by Jesus' debate.
You mentioned Acts 22:16 is one of your latest posts. I did notice that.
Acts 22:16 does not mean that baptism washes away sins, but the calling on His name (repentance and faith does) does, water baptism is the outward sign and symbol of that inward faith and reality - as in 1 Peter 3:21. "an appeal to God for a good conscience".
It was really sad for me to learn that the City council of Zurich killed Feliz Manz by drowning, because they ( some students of Zwingli ) re-baptized themselves, being convicted that credo-baptism was the proper and biblical way to baptize. I agree with the credo/baptist view.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FI2oFvEUfXE
So much of the disunity and persecution in Europe and in the American colonies (infant baptizers vs. Roger Williams) seems to be connected to the infant baptism issue.
those state churches in Europe, by calling people who were baptized as "true Christians" are probably one the great reasons why the life of those churches died out - because that creates a lot of nominalism - there must be an emphasis on the necessity of the born -again experience by repentance and faith.
I don't think being re-baptized as an adult after repentance and faith is in any way a "slap in the face to Christ", etc. -
But I appreciate the gospel unity of "Together for the gospel" where we agree to disagree on the issue of baptism.
I was baptized as a baby in a liberal United Methodist Church, but it meant nothing to me and only when I was born-again and actually repented and trusted Christ and started going to a Bible believing church did I learn about Christ and the gospel. I was baptized after repentance and faith and by immersion (also more Biblical in my opinion - Romans 6:1-7), and joined that Baptist Church.
My mother, who had me baptized, did not even realize that she herself was a sinner, until much later, ten years before she passed away.
Not everything has to be clearly spelled out; for example the exact words of the Trinity, homo-ousias, 3 hypostasis, etc. and "one God in three persons" are all Biblical, but they are implied.
However, on baptism, I think the case is much weaker for infant baptism than the doctrine of the Trinity.
Hi Ken.
Thanks for your quick response.
Yea, I did not intend to lure you into this conversation again, or even comment and read our entire conversation...please understand that was not my goal, but would be happy to start up again if you care to.
I just wanted to know if you think implicit evidence is enough to establish doctrine/teaching....which it appears you do. And in turn, that if one could show the validity of IB scripturally on implicit evidence (though I think it it much closer to explicit - if we keep context in mind)...than you would agree to its practice.
Not sure if you saw, but apparently PeacebyJesus does not, if I am understanding him correctly, thinks something has to have explicit evidence to be valid.
And just for the record, I am not claiming that the Trinity is not a biblical concept, but just that the scriptures do not come out and explicitly define it the way later councils did. That the scriptural evidence was more pieced together...like scriptural evidence for IB.
I do disagree that IB has much weaker evidence than the Trinity. I think IB has practical explicit evidence, again, if we take context in mind, and not drastically, instantaneously redefine words and their meanings to fit our own paradigm...like the Baptists. :) While history from Irenaeus has confirmed this.
in Him,
joe
This comment comes an hour late and a buck short, but I think it should not be left unsaid:
Ken & Jihad by Jesus, you both confessed to the lack of meaning or importance of your childhood baptism: the one talent that the Master gave to the third servant in the famous Parable was also meaningless and unimportant to him: but that doesn't mean that it did not exist, or that it had no value. Out of four kinds of soil into which the Sower planted its seed, three were fruitless: that doesn't mean no seed was planted, or that the seed itself was barren.
Lvka, the point that was missed was that believing preceded this sealing, while even in the parable of the sower the only souls were those who could heard the word and respond, nor are varying talents in the other parable said to be the Holy Spirit, versus abilities.
And in Scripture regeneration results in effects in heart and life and a testimony of conversion, which those whose testimonies you seek to explain away did not have despite being infant baptized and confirmed, and sincerely receiving other prescribed sacraments, but which effects they realized when they did what Scripture commands, that of heart repentance and faith, having being drawn and convicted by God.
One can backslide after that, but one has to first “frontslide” with manifest regeneration, not simply as in institutionalized religion which is more form than reality. Been there (and yet must become more real). Bye for now.
Joe,
PeacebyJesus does not, if I am understanding him correctly, thinks something has to have explicit evidence to be valid.
I did not say that explicit statements or examples are absolutely necessary for a doctrine, but referred to the doctrine of the Trinity as being one that was derived from clear statement. And among other rules, while acknowledging Biblical hermeneutics is not simplistic and can be an extensive discussion, i hold that as part of the collective weight of conflating evidence, explicit, clear statements (understanding the literary form) are more substantive than assumptions and or extrapolations. And that the progressive nature of revelation adds more light as we go along, with covenantal distinctions being manifest .
And that in regards to infant baptism, we have clear and consistent statements that faith is necessary for salvation and baptism, God drawing souls who respond, and which is confirmed by clear examples, with no manifest examples of baptism of anything but believers, and that the reality that circumcision corresponds to in baptism is one that is realized by faith, while the clearest evidence testifies to moral reasoning being something infants do not possess, and with no evidence that they are given this faith at baptism.
And for me the matter is settled.
In Scripture, regeneration doesn't happen mechanically. The receivers of talents and seeds have their own saying in the matter.
But my point was something else: a seed has to be watered, and rich kids have to be trained in economy or otherwise they will waste away their entire fortune, like the Prodigal Son. That's why I said what I said about the Biblical view of the human being as family, not as an isolated individuals. Parents today fail to accomplish their duty as Christians towards their childrden, because they themselves no longer identify as such in any meaningful manner, due to 500 years of secularization in the West, or 50 to 75 years of Communism in the East: hence the rampant nominalism we see today.
PeacebyJesus does not, if I am understanding him correctly, thinks something has to have explicit evidence to be valid.
I did not say that explicit statements or examples are absolutely necessary for a doctrine, .
Okay, thanks for the clarification. So you do think implicit evidence is valid and can be used to establish doctrine, but just not in the case of IB, because you see other evidence that shows that faith is required before baptism. Simply because the NT ties faith and baptism together, again, says nothing of given the sign to infants. Faith was and is also explicitly tied to circucsim...and yet, the sign given to infants.
I see your reasoning as inconsistent and basically acting as a double standard.
We have clear evidence in the NT that shows adult converts requiring a profession of faith, an assumed faith. Nobody can see the heart but God...so even faith being a requirement of adult convert baptism is not even totally correct. But this says absolutely nothing about the status of the children of such converts...and the NT gives explicit evidence for the continuity of the principle of CS that gives strong, even explicit, evidence that that status of these chidlren in the new covenant has not changed.
So the fact that you require an example of IB in order for it to be valid is quite the double standard given that we have no examples in the NT of baptisms of those who were raised in a christian home later in life.
It is only when one dramatically, instantaneously, and arbitrarily changes the meaning of biblical concepts such as "to you and your seed", "household" and even "holy", among others...to justify their assumed paradigm, that the practice of IB cannot be seen to not only have implied evidence in the NT, but explicit evidence.
As Douglas Wilson, in "To a 1000 Generations" says, The way baptists and paedobaptists handle the modern debate over infant baptism frequently shows how far removed we are from the debates of the first century. Our debates center around a question like this: Do you mean to say that you think the Gentiles in the first century baptized their infants? In the first century the question was more like this: Do you mean to say that the Gentiles don't have to circumcise their infants? It was a foregone conclusion in the 1st century that somehitng must be done with the infants - after all, if at least one parent was a believer, the chilren were "holy"....But, if the historical context of an implicit neglected, this means the passage will be interpreted in the light of a modern historical context. There is never "no context".
As we have made plain, this question of historical context is related directly to the question of IB. If we examine the history of the Jews prior to Chirst for two millennia and the history of the Church after Christ, searching both unispired and inspired histories, we find absolutely no debate on the popriety of including infants as infants as members of the people of God. It is clear the modern debate over baptism is not part of the historical context of the Bible's teacing on baptism. We have exported it to the past; it is a debate which is not native to the past. Another way of saying this is that we misunderstand the NT because we have imposed our debates and questions on it. Instead of this, we should be seekng to understand what questions and problems the apostles were addressing. When we do this, the fact that IB is indeed fitting, and required, becomes immediately apparent.
Also, piggy backing on Wilson's contexual comments above, Acts 15 give evidence that nothing in the NT changed the practice of who should get the sign. We see here that the Jews, without being in error, still actually continued to practice circumcism.
So anyway, now that we have established that implicit evidence is valid in your eyes...I wil go to your next points.
I understand if you are out of the conversation, as have said.
in Him,
Joe
I grew up a fundamentalist Baptist preacher’s son, very well educated in Baptist doctrine. I became an evangelical in my twenties: same doctrines just with a more positive emphasis. I am now a conservative (confessional) Lutheran.
Why did I become a Lutheran if I was taught, and still believe, that salvation is received through faith alone, in Christ alone? How could I join a Church that believes that God saves and forgives sins in Baptism? Baptism is a work!
I became a conservative Lutheran when I realized that the reason Baptists and evangelicals do not and cannot understand infant baptism and baptismal regeneration is that they do not understand how a sinner obtains FAITH!
As I said above, I was a Baptist preacher’s son. When I was nine years old, I got into trouble, and my mother gave me a well-deserved spanking. After the spanking, she talked to me about sin and that I needed to be saved. She led me in a prayer to ask Jesus to forgive me of my sins, come into my heart, and be my Lord and Savior. I remember feeling so good after finishing that prayer. I was saved!
I was then told that God would now speak to me or move me or lead me to do things to follow his will for my life. All the Christians around me were talking about God moving them, leading them, speaking to them…but I just didn’t have the same intensity of feelings that most of them seemed to have. So when I was about 15, hearing a good Baptist sermon, I asked myself this, “Maybe the reason God doesn’t speak to me like he does other Christians is probably because I am not really saved! I didn’t really believe the first time. Maybe I didn’t fully repent. Maybe I didn’t have enough faith.” So I prayed the equivalent of the Sinner’s Prayer again, with all sincerity and contrition for my sins. I felt that rush of good feelings again. I was happy. I now knew that I was definitely saved!
But then in my early 20′s I attended a non-denominational evangelical church (with Baptist doctrine). The people in this church REALLY had God. They would sway with the hymns, hands toward heaven, their eyes rolling back in the heads. "Wow! God REALLY speaks to these people! So why doesn’t he speak to me like that? There must be something wrong with me, because I don’t FEEL saved anymore!"
I left the Church altogether.
I was not the only Baptist/evangelical to undergo several born again experiences because we didn’t FEEL saved. My mother, the pastor’s wife, several years later, the person who had “led me to Christ”, decided that she wasn’t really saved either, so she repeated her born again experience just to be sure. And several other people in my church repeated their born again experience for the same reason: they weren't sure that they had done it right. If you go on your computer and google “how many times have you prayed the Sinner's Prayer?” you will find other Baptists/evangelicals who have gone through the same experience.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20060728125929AAnQHZp
The problem with the Baptist/evangelical Doctrine of Faith is that it is based on US! Our salvation is based on us having the maturity and intelligence to make a free will decision to accept Christ into our hearts, So if later on in life we start to question our salvation due to not FEELING saved, what do we have to fall back on? Ourselves! Did I really repent? Did I really have true faith or was I trusting in my own faith? At nine years old did I really have the maturity to make a decision? MAYBE I DIDN’T DO IT RIGHT! So just to be on the safe side, I’ll sincerely repeat a version of the Sinner’s Prayer, and make 100% sure that, this time, I do everything right!
So, in this plan of salvation, which is supposed to be a FREE gift from God, we turn it into something that depends on us…on us doing the born again experience correctly!
To read the rest of this article, click here:
http://www.lutherwasnotbornagain.com/2013/06/the-reason-baptists-and-evanglicals.html
God bless,
Gary
Luther, Baptists, and Evangelicals
Gary:
I am not a baptist myself, nor have I ever been a baptist.
On the other hand: I think I read one of your recent discussions with a Roman defender the other day- and I was most disheartened that you appear to think Rome actually understands justification by faith alone, by grace alone, because of Christ alone, and that you and this defender of Rome had the same gospel (perhaps you do- that is, you misunderstand what the Reformation was all about).
Feel free to try and persuade Baptists into becoming Lutherans, but I will most certainly make my readers aware that you think Rome has the same Gospel that the Reformers defended. Luther would certainly disagree with you.
If it wasn't your dialog I read, my sincere apologies, and I will remove this comment.
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