Interaction with Abdullah Kunde

Interaction with Abdullah Kunde on the Incarnation and his debate with Dr. White:

This was in the comboxes at Paul Bilal Williams Blog, whom I have mentioned before, who is a British convert to Islam, and claims to be a former Evangelical.

Abdullah Kunde’s demeanor is very good; Paul’s is most of the time; when he sticks to issues and arguments, and Eric Fadli’s is generally O.K.

The same cannot be said about particularly two other Muslims, “Rambo John” and “Rehan Ullah”, who are full of anger and hate and dirty mouths. Islam gives them great power of moral behavior, right?

http://bloggingtheology.wordpress.com/2012/01/01/can-god-become-a-man-james-white-vs-abdullah-kunde/

Getting back to the subject of the incarnation –

Abdullah Kunde wrote:

I said Divine = independent, unique, unlike anything else, all-knowing, all-powerful, etc

Yes, we also believe that of the Divine Nature of Jesus.

Created (human) = dependent, similar (to other humans), ignorant, powerless

The human nature of Jesus came into existence in the womb of Mary, and has those qualities, yes.

These attributes are mutually exclusive.

But since Jesus has both a fully Divine Nature and a fully Human Nature (He got tired, He ate, He drank; He slept; He cried; -since He has both in one person, it is not a mutually exclusive concept.

One cannot have a ‘square-circle’.

True; but if the Word of God ceased to be the Word/eternal Son/divine, and changed into only a human, then that would be true, and your argument would have merit; but that is not what the Bible says, nor what Christians believe. So it is not a “square -circle”.

Likewise, one cannot be independent-dependent or all-knowing-ignorant. These statements are meaningless.

but if the independent chooses to temporarily lay aside His independence and live as a dependent for 33 years, there is nothing contradictory or meaningless about that; and if the All knowing chooses voluntarily to temporarily be not all-knowing – He knew a lot of things, He was not totally ignorant. Anyway, by choosing voluntary for 33 years to not use His divine attributes (Philippians 2:5-8), but doing miracles and knowing the secret hearts of people (John 2:23-25), then raising Himself from the dead (John 2:19-22; John 10:18), and being restored to that glory He had with the Father in all eternity past, (John 17:5), then it is not a contradictory thing or meaningless statement, as you say.

akunde said, on January 6, 2012 at 4:25 am

The conversation has degraded a bit,

[ that was a massive understatement! At least another Muslim named Erik Fadli tried to warn Rehan Ullah and Rambo John about their rude behavior, but they did not listen to him at all.]

but I’ll respond to the question I was asked prior.

…but if the independent chooses to temporarily lay aside His independence and live as a dependent for 33 years, there is nothing contradictory or meaningless about that; and if the All knowing chooses voluntarily to temporarily be not all-knowing – He knew a lot of things, He was not totally ignorant. Anyway, by choosing voluntary for 33 years to not use His divine attributes (Philippians 2:5-8), but doing miracles and knowing the secret hearts of people (John 2:23-25), then raising Himself from the dead (John 2:19-22; John 10:18), and being restored to that glory He had with the Father in all eternity past, (John 17:5), then it is not a contradictory thing or meaningless statement, as you say…

Well, it is meaningless, you’re still maintaining that two contradictory things can exist at the same time.

Your get out clause is to attempt to suggest that the Divine could ‘not use His attributes’ and the re-use them later (at a whim).

When He isn’t using them, where do they go? How does he reacquire them?

Precisely what attributes can He choose to not use? Existence? You’ve already said He can give up life, knowledge, power, uniqueness. Why not existence?

The bottom line is there is no genuine basis for these ideas, beyond trying to reconcile contradictory Biblical statements.

Thank you Abdullah for good conversation and good demeanor –


Abdullah Kunde wrote:


Well, it is meaningless, you’re still maintaining that two contradictory things can exist at the same time.


Christians throughout history have read and meditated on all of those verses I cited above and have found profound meaning and awe in them; that God (the Word of God from eternity; the eternal Son of God) humbled Himself and came down and was willing to become flesh (human) and live for 33 years among us, be subjected to hunger, thirst, temptation (Matthew 4:1-11, but not sin, Hebrews 4:15); mockery, rejection, suffering, pain, and torture and death. It is amazing love. It is not contradictory to me at all, and many others. I understand that you think it is contradictory. The redemption/ransom at the cross is both amazing love for sinners – that Jesus would allow Himself to be killed by sinners; and the redemption/ransom at the cross is also amazing justice against sin. God showed His full justice and His full wrath. If you study and meditate on all the verses above, including Genesis 22, Hebrews 2:14-18 – and here; and why He had to become human, in order to save us; and that Yahya called Jesus the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world – John 1:29 and see His love for all the nations, tribes, languages, and peoples – Revelation 5:9 – how His holy blood bought redemption and was a ransom for all nations – and that it was fulfillment of the foreshadowing and prophesy of Genesis 22, which the Qur’an 37:107 alludes to and retains an aspect of the substitutional atonement of the innocent (the ram/lamb/sheep) for the guilty humans (symbolized in Abraham’s son); hopefully you could see that this is not meaningless nor contradictory, but an amazing wonder of God’s justice and love accomplished at the same time. 


Your get out clause is to attempt to suggest that the Divine could ‘not use His attributes’ and the re-use them later (at a whim).
When He isn’t using them, where do they go? 


They are not some kind of substance or thing like glue or water or air. Philippians 2:5-8 explains it well enough; that we can grasp this idea by faith as God’s nature cannot be destroyed or cease to exist. 
How does he "reacquire" them?
 [ I don't agree with that particular terminology, but for the sake of argument . . . ] In the resurrection and the glorification of Jesus – explained by all the verses put together – also John 17:5 is clear. Jesus was made alive by the Spirit – I Peter 3:18. He also raised Himself up from the dead, as we have given the verses before. (John 2:19-22; 10:18) Many other verses say that God the Father raised Him up from the dead. All three persons of the Trinity were involved in the resurrection.


Precisely what attributes can He choose to not use? Existence? 


No; we accept John 10:18 and John 2:19-22 (and every other Bible passage that relates to this issue) as inspired words and truth, so we don’t struggle with God’s ability to do this whole thing that we are talking about. (Both incarnation and redemption at the cross and resurrection) 
Also, even all other human beings cannot give up existence. Our souls continue on after death. Don’t you believe that? Doesn’t Islam teach that souls continue and will be re-constituted with their bodies for the day of resurrection and face the judgment Day and that the wicked suffer for eternity in hell; and the righteous go in paradise / heaven? 


[Addendum: Indeed, soon after I wrote the above, Paul Williams then posted this article, which illustrates that Muslims believe about the day of resurrection where all human beings will stand before God and give an account for their lives - judgment day. This is one of the six articles/pillars of faith/believe in Islam, that is obligatory for Muslims to believe in. ]

You’ve already said He can give up life, knowledge, power, uniqueness. Why not existence?


already answered above.


The bottom line is there is no genuine basis for these ideas, beyond trying to reconcile contradictory Biblical statements.


Faith and the power of Jesus to open minds/hearts ( see Luke 24:45; John 6:44; Acts 16:14) is the victory that reconciles this amazing mystery. Keep on meditating on large portions of the Injeel (the NT) and ask Jesus Al Masih to reveal Himself to you. Ask the one whom you read about as you read the gospels and epistles of the NT and see His character and sinlessness and love and high teachings to reveal Himself. 


Thanks again for proper attitude in discussion, both you, Abdullah and Paul – I pray for you both. 



I sincerely wish peace to you both (and to all Muslims) – the peace that only Jesus Al Masih can give.

John 14:27

Romans 5:1-11