It appears there is a new Reformer in the midst...
R. Sungenis: Now really, am I so wrong? Or am I one of the only ones brave enough to step off the gravy train and point out that the emperor really has no clothes on? Was I being “shabby, dishonest and unscrupulous” about John Paul II kissing the Koran; praying with animists; refusing to allow a statue of Our Lady at Assisi but allowing a Buddah statue; discouraging Catholic proselytism toward other religions; praising Martin Luther as a great theologian but apologizing for past popes of the Inquisition; allowing a cardinal to sign the Lutheran/Catholic Joint Declaration that said “man is justified by faith alone”; giving communion to non‐Catholic politicians; harboring bishops involved in the pedophile scandal or ignoring accusations of pedophilia and homosexuality among his clerics; removing the excommunication of Masons from Canon Law; saying the Old Covenant was never revoked; condoning the idea that Scripture contains historical errors; having “holy” cow dung placed on his forehead in honor of the god Shiva; allowing Voodoo witch doctors and snake charmers to pray to their false gods; honoring the Dalai Lama; wearing the religious garb of pagan religions; downplaying traditional Marian doctrines and interpretations of Scripture applying to her; failing to consecrate Russia; seeking to redefine and lessen the primacy of the papacy for the sake of ecumenism; or having scantily clad women perform dances at his masses, etc., etc.? No, no. The one who is being “shabby, dishonest and unscrupulous” is he who ignores these doctrinal and moral aberrations and tries to make John Paul II a saint instead.
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No less obliged than folks like James White who are lone voices calling out errors within Protestantism that are too 'unpopular' for most Protestants to talk about.
The only thing worse than silence and sweeping things under the rug is getting tarred and feathered for being the lone voice addressing it.
There is just as much a tendency for certain Protestants to treat everything White says as 'unquestionable' and 'gold' as there is certain Catholics to treat everything a Catholic priest/bishop/pope says as 'beyond question'.
(NB: This is not to say Sungenis or White are the only people, just the more vocal, and this is also not to say everything they say is accurate or proper.)
The only thing Christ guarantees is the salvation of the elect, not
universal salvation.
Guarantees?! elect?!
Welcome home, Bob!
Is Sungenis a sedevacantist?
Or is he a member in good standing in his RC diocese?
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Nick,
I don't have a problem at all with a lone voice (or voices) pointing out error. John the Baptist did it. Athanasius did it. Luther did it. etc.
The aspect of the entire Sungenis thing that I find interesting is the intense amount of private interpretation and confusion from all parties involved, on your side of the Tiber.
I've been hearing for years about the truth and unity of Romanism, and the anarchy of Protestantism. But in actuality, you all deal with the same sort of unity problems Protestants face.
“One cannot…argue that his religious system is more legitimate on the basis that there is less disagreement within it than within other systems of belief. It is an all-or-nothing proposition. Either disagreements nullify a system, or they do not. Otherwise, the best one can argue is that his religious system more nearly conforms to a set standard of unity, but does not actually meet that standard. It is also important to keep in mind that the ‘diversity of belief’ argument is one that was invented by Roman Catholic Apologists….Any system that argues for an arbitrary criterion for being the ‘true’ church must itself conform to that criterion.” [Source: Eric Svendsen, Upon This Slippery Rock, 23].
Is Sungenis a sedevacantist?
No. see:
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=4581
Or is he a member in good standing in his RC diocese?
As far as I know, yes.
Guarantees?! elect?!
Welcome home, Bob!
Well, maybe he better meet with some elders in a consistory first!
I mean, Camping throws around such terms as well1
James Swan writes frequently about Bob Sungenis and therefore cannot claim he is not interested one way or the other in what the man writes. The simple question then to James is: do you like or dislike what Bob writes? Why? You may have to search your heart before answering this one.
James,
What are some clear examples of disunity and private interpretation within the claims of Sungenis and others?
Remember, disunity does not extend into the realm of doctrine, since the moment one formally rejects the Church's teaching they cease being Catholic. So, for example, the situation of Peter being hypocritical and scandalous with the Gentiles in Galatians 2 is not - contrary to popular Protestant belief - a situation of denying dogma. With that in mind, any priest, bishop, pope, or apologist who fails to do their duty to accurately pass on the Catholic Faith has not failed on a level that creates doctrinal disunity.
There really is no parallel to Protestantism, because without a central magisterium there are few to no 'essential dogmas' in the first place from which to draw unity.
What are some clear examples of disunity and private interpretation within the claims of Sungenis and others?
Sungenis' dissent from the CCC's teaching on Muslims and their together-with-us worship of the One True God.
And here's a really good one.
disunity does not extend into the realm of doctrine, since the moment one formally rejects the Church's teaching they cease being Catholic.
According to Nick, who is not, as far as anyone knows, part of the Magisterium.
Why should anyone believe you on this topic, Nick, when The Church hasn't made it happen? Why won't the Mag go as far as you want to go?
There really is no parallel to Protestantism, because without a central magisterium there are few to no 'essential dogmas' in the first place from which to draw unity.
Sure there are. My church is Southern Baptist and has what amounts to a confession.
Other churches subscribe even more strongly and firmly to confessions, and church discipline can be done and has been done to those who reject them. Your repeating this unfounded and pitiful myth simply demonstrates that your attitudes about Protestantism is too colored by bias in too many areas. Get it right.
Peace,
Rhology
Thanks for the answers, James.
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