Psalm 69:8-9 (English Standard Version)
"I have become a stranger to my brothers,
an alien to my mother’s sons.
For zeal for your house has consumed me,
and the reproaches of those who reproach you have fallen on me."
(also treated as Messianic in Romans 15:3 by the apostle Paul)
Since John is the one who is quoting and alluding to Psalm 69 so much:
John 2:17 (Psalm 69:9)
John 15:25 (Psalm 69:4)
John 19:28-29 (Psalm 69:21)
In addition, the context of John 7:3-5 is about his brothers not believing in Him, and then in verses 6-8, it becomes even more clear that John is saying that Psalm 69:8 is about Mary’s others sons. John 7:6, “Jesus therefore said to them, “My time is not yet at hand, but your time is always opportune.” John 7:7, “The world cannot hate you; but it hates me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil.” Because verse 3 in the same context says, “His brothers therefore said to Him, “Depart from here and go into Judea, that your disciples also may behold Your works which You are doing.” – here is a clear distinction between Jesus’ brothers and Jesus’ disciples. He contrasts between the faith and love of the disciples and the hatred and unbelief of the world. He does the same thing in John 15:25, another quote from Psalm 69. “They hated Me without a cause”. Now the context of the cross and the giving of Mary to John to care of her becomes even more important and more clear that Mary had other children. And then in John 19:27-28, where Jesus says, “Behold, your mother!”, Jesus is clearly connected her with Psalm 69, because his real brothers have disowned Him and been estranged from Him and rejected Him, and hated Him, so therefore, He commits His mother to John. In verse 28 of John 19, the Scripture says, “. . . in order that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, “I am thirsty”. Psalm 69:21 – with Matthew 27:34, 48, Mark 15:23, 36, and Luke 23:36.
In church history, some people began to make unreasonable deductions about Mary, going beyond Scripture, adding to Scripture, and contradicting Scripture.
These unreasonable deductions led to the whole series of unbiblical traditions about Mary (prayers to her, IC, BA, co-mediatrix, some even calling for co-redemptrix to be defined as dogma) and led to the over-exalting of Mary, the over-emphasis on virginity (even after marriage), and celibacy as a requirement for all ministers in the RCC in church history. It is called a “higher way of holiness”. This implies that married folks cannot attain to a holy life, and it seems to exalt works over grace and faith.
Obviously, Psalm 69:5 is NOT about the Messiah, because He was sinless. (John 8:46; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 4:15, Heb. 7:26; I Peter 1:19-20). This can be understood the same way that 2 Samuel 7:14a is about the Messiah, but 7:14b is not about the Messiah. So, it is possible that Psalm 69:8 is about Mary's others son who are against the Messiah and don't have faith until the resurrection and afterward, but Psalm 69:5 is not about the Messiah.
By the way, a great sermon on Psalm 69 and emotions, including other quotes in Romans 11 and Acts 1, in his series on some of the Psalms in "Thinking and Feeling with God" by John Piper is here.
The apostle John seems to want us to get the connection by looking at Psalm 69 and all the other quotes in his gospel. (and Acts 1 and Romans 11 and 15)
Moreover, "for" in Psalm 69:9 connects it to his zeal; and John is showing the contrast between the faith of the disciples in John 2:12-22 and John 7:3-7 vs. His brothers who, because of their unbelief, are His enemies and "hated Him without a cause". (John 15:25 and alluded to in John 7:7 - the hatred of the world; from Psalm 69:4)
John 7:3-9 :
So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world." For not even his brothers believed in him. Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come." After saying this, he remained in Galilee.
One of the ways skeptics attack the resurrection is they say Jesus only appeared in His resurrection to His friends, believers, disciples.
Well, Jesus' brothers were not believing in Him, and so, they were His enemies in this sense, even hating Him, implied here; because they wanted Him to show Himself to the world; and it says the Jews were seeking to kill Him. (John 7:1)
They were His enemies in their unbelief; but they believed at the resurrection and afterward; especially, James (I Cor. 15:7; Galatians 1:19; Acts 15:13ff.)and Jude (writer of the epistle of Jude).
So Christ appeared to some enemies, namely His brothers, and Saul, who became Paul.
A powerful apologetic for the resurrection.
Seems clear that John and Jesus are making this connection between the sufferings of David in Psalm 69, that his own brothers, "my mother's sons are against me"; and also this is prophesied about the Messiah and it happen that way; and so it is clearly implied and alluded to by the way John uses Psalm 69, the connection "for" in verse 9, and the contrast between the faith of the disciples and lack of faith in His brothers in John 2:12-22; then the hatred and unbelief of His brothers in John 7.
Putting it all together, it makes perfect sense why Jesus committed His mother to John, and seeing the connection of John 19 with Psalm 69 and the other gospels and giving His mother to John; (Psalm 69:21 : Matt 27:48; Luke 23:36; John 19:29; Mark 15:23) makes it even stronger that he is saying Psalm 69:8 is about Jesus' brothers, the sons of Mary.
So, the virgin birth of Christ is protected, by Scripture alone; Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke chapters 1-2; but the Perpetual Virginity of Mary doctrine and dogma is un-Scriptural and not truth, therefore, it should be abandoned.
It is a man-made tradition.
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11 comments:
Uhm, ... we don't "exegete" the Old Testament. We "eisegete" it using what we know from the New.
Even DA admitted it was good exegesis, "decent exegetical counter- argument, something with substance and meat"; based on the way the NT apostles interpreted much of Psalm 69, as Messianic (Gospels)and also other prophecies are there also- Acts 1:20 (Psalm 69:25) and Romans 11:9-10 (Psalm 69:22-23).
I'll add also that it's possible to read this verse as Jesus saying that He is a stranger to his "brothers," that is, the Jews.
Is it possible that "my mother" refers to Israel and "sons" refers to the Jews?
I haven't read this anywhere. Just wondering if someone has seen it this way.
Of course, there would have to be a precedent in Scripture or at least Jewish culture to say that Israel (or Judah) as a nation could be considered a Jew's "mother."
Pilgrim's Arbour,
"Israel" is a man, not a woman. (And no).
Lvka,
In the OT, Israel is often metaphorically referred to as a female...for example in the prophetic literature, God refers to Himself as a jilted husband/lover.
Lvka,
Gene is correct. And moving the ball a bit further, the bride of Christ is His elect, both from the OT and the NT. So the OT church (portrayed visibly as His chosen people Israel) is typified as female, and the NT church is as well.
Scholars see this typology played out in Revelation 12, and I think they're on the right track. This passage speaks of the woman (Israel) about to give birth to the male child (the Christ) while Satan (through his servant Herod) is waiting to devour him. This Messiah will rule the nations with a rod of iron (representing the rule of the kingdom of God on earth) and be caught up to God (death and resurrection) and to His throne. The woman fled into the wilderness (dispersion after A.D. 70) until the fulfillment in time of God's plan for this world and for His people.
Gene, Pilgrim,
Yes, ... but no. (I know what You mean, but it still doesn't "fly").
In the Old Covenant, Israel -to my knowledge- is never a mother. (Bride, yes; mother, never). -- At max You'll find some metaphorical references to matriarchs here and there (as in Rachel crying for her children because they are no more) or something like that... :-\
And making connections (based on authorial-intent?) between the Psalms and Revelations [as in King David actually having the same idea as Saint John]... no. Sorry.
The Church (in the *New Testament* book of Revelations) is *indeed* a mother, because she gives birth to her children "from the water and the Spirit", the Christians being thus "born anew" -- but that imagery obviously doesn't fit the Old Covenant. (Sorry).
Lvka said...
The Church (in the *New Testament* book of Revelations [sic]) is *indeed* a mother, because she gives birth to her children "from the water and the Spirit", the Christians being thus "born anew" -- but that imagery obviously doesn't fit the Old Covenant. (Sorry).
The concepts of both water and Spirit renewal are both anticipated and described within the context of the Old Covenant. They are linked together in the following Old Testament passages (among others:
Isaiah 32:15:
15 until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest.
The pouring of the Spirit upon the believer is likened to our wilderness souls becoming bountiful. This is illustrated also by the parable of the sower and the seeds that fell on the good soil in Matthew 13, Mark 4 and Luke 8.
Isaiah 44:3:
3 For I will pour water on the thirsty land, and streams on the dry ground; I will pour my Spirit upon your offspring, and my blessing on your descendants.
Ezekiel 36:25-27:
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
These are revelatory prophecies of what will happen in the last days (New Testament era and beyond), as the apostle Peter said (quoting Joel 2:28-29):
17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams; 18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy" (Acts 2:17).
If those under the Old Covenant weren't expected to understand these things, then Jesus would have no reason to chastise Nicodemus about not understanding them.
Lvka said...
In the Old Covenant, Israel -to my knowledge- is never a mother. (Bride, yes; mother, never).
Hosea 2:1-5:
1 Say to your brothers, "You are my people," and to your sisters, "You have received mercy."
2 "Plead with your mother, plead—
for she is not my wife,
and I am not her husband—
that she put away her whoring from her face,
and her adultery from between her breasts;
3 lest I strip her naked
and make her as in the day she was born,
and make her like a wilderness,
and make her like a parched land,
and kill her with thirst.
4 Upon her children also I will have no mercy,
because they are children of whoredom.
5 For their mother has played the whore;
she who conceived them has acted shamefully.
Read the whole chapter. It continues with the mother/wife-themed references but these should suffice as a sample.
I am currently unaware of any other passage that uses the term mother in this way of Israel.
Dave,
Yes, it would have been more clear if John had gone ahead and quoted Psalm 69:8 directly.
However, he seems to want us to get the connection by looking at Psalm 69 and all the other quotes in John. (and Acts 1 and Romans 11 and 15)
Moreover, "for" in Psalm 69:9 connects it to his zeal; and John is showing the contrast between the faith of the disciples in John 2:12-22 and John 7:3-7 vs. His brothers who, because of their unbelief, are His enemies and "hated Him without a cause". (John 15:25 and alluded to in John 7:7 - the hatred of the world; from Psalm 69:4)
John 7:3-9 :
So his brothers said to him, "Leave here and go to Judea, that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world." For not even his brothers believed in him. Jesus said to them, "My time has not yet come, but your time is always here. The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come." After saying this, he remained in Galilee.
One of the ways skeptics attack the resurrection is they say Jesus only appeared in His resurrection to His friends, believers, disciples.
Well, His brothers were not believing in Him, and they were His enemies, even hating Him, implied here; because they wanted Him to show Himself to the world; and it says the Jews were seeking to kill Him. (John 7:1)
They were His enemies in their unbelief; but they believed at the resurrection and afterward. James and Jude (writer of the epistle of Jude).
So Christ appeared to some enemies, namely His brothers, and Saul, who became Paul.
A powerful apologetic for the resurrection.
Seems clear that John and Jesus are making this connection between the sufferings of David in Psalm 69, that his own brothers, "my mother's sons are against me"; and also this is prophesied about the Messiah and it happen that way; and so it is clearly implied and alluded to by the way John uses Psalm 69, the connection "for" in verse 9, and the contrast between the faith of the disciples and lack of faith in His brothers in John 2:12-22; then the hatred and unbeleif of His brothers in John 7.
Putting it all together, it makes perfect sense why Jesus committed His mother to John, and seeing the connection of John 19 with Psalm 69 and the other gospels and giving His mother to John; (Psalm 69:21 : Matt 27:48; Luke 23:36; John 19:29; Mark 15:23) makes it even stronger that he is saying Psalm 69:8 is about Jesus' brothers, the sons of Mary.
so, the virgin birth is protected, by Matthew 1:18-25 and Luke chapters 1-2; but the PVM is un-Scriptural and not truth, therefore, it should be abandoned.
It is a man-made tradition.
I am currently unaware of any other passage [except Osea 2:1-5] that uses the term mother in this way of Israel.
Same here. (And thanks for drawing my attention to that passage).
-----
Ken,
precisely because the use of the word "brothers" in Scripture (both Testaments) is so polysemantic, we cannot *know* that they literally meant physical brothers as opposed to other relations of close kin. (Your own passage speaks against Your view, as it were).
P.S.: wrod-verif = "formal" :-)
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