Monday, February 23, 2015

Debate: The Bodily Assumption Of Mary (White vs Sungenis)


steve said...

I assume this was before Sungenis fell out of favor with his religious superiors.

EA said...

Thanks for posting this James. Dr. White clearly won this debate. I have most of Dr. White's RC debates, they're very entertaining. My all time favorite is still the Papal Infallibility debate against Tim Staples; an absolute drubbing.

James Swan said...

I just finished listening to this debate this morning. Dr. Sungenis helped demonstrate the unspoken "assumptions" that go into believing in Mary's assumption. In fact, I found the argumentation of Dr. Sungenis more interesting than Dr. White's. It appeared to me, a number of things had to be granted first in order for their to be such a thing as Mary's assumption. There's no direct meaningful evidence, so the only way to prove it is via arguments from authority. I'm so used to Rome's cyber-defenders trying to appeal to this or that historical fact about Mary's assumption. Dr. Sungenis was wise enough to realize... there really are no meaningful historical facts proving it.

From my perspective, Dr. Sungenis didn't present a compelling case- but I don't think any of Rome's defenders could have done any better. Sungenis gets an A+ for actually being brave enough to address this subject in a live setting against Dr. White. I'd also give him an A+ for simply being calmly honest at certain points about the lack of factual data.

On the other hand, this might as well have been an argument about "authority," instead of about Mary-
in which case, I did not find Robert's case compelling.

James Swan said...

In case on nitpickers....

"order for their" should be... "order for there"

michael said...

I truly believe Dr.Sungenis has made a point about Dr. White! If you take all of the declassified photos of the green martians that have been captured over the years and put them next to Dr. White with his face, neck and hands painted green you will see a similarity! Other than that, I cannot believe the basis he argues from supports the bodily assumption of Mary!

Now it seems to me this debate underscores what the Apostle Paul was warning about when he warned this:::>

2Co 11:12 And what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do.
2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.
2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
2Co 11:15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

Dr. Sungenis is skilled at what he is doing in this debate, no doubt. However it is nevertheless a disguise and deception of high quality!

Obviously I believe Dr. White knocked down all Dr. Sungenis' arguments very well.

James Swan said...

michael said...
Other than that, I cannot believe the basis he argues from supports the bodily assumption of Mary!

Well, if you can't use history, tradition, or the Bible, what's left?

Anonymous said...

Dr Sungenis gave up Scriptures and "Holy Tradition", for Sola Ecclesia. His use of the Acts 15 council assumes that the Magisterium has the same authority as the Apostles had. It should be really scary for roman catholics to base their entire faith upon this kind of argumentation.

James Swan said...

One thing I thought about after listening to the debate, and I don't recall it being brought up:

Dr. Sungenis was very insistent on the Pope have authority to decide this or that. The problem is not that a church from the past claims authority, it's the claim for infallible authority.

Rome is stuck with the dogma of the Assumption because of infallible authority.