Monday, January 07, 2013

A very interesting discussion

A discussion between Pastor Saiko Woods (Reformed) and Fredrick Price, Jr. (Word of Faith - Name it Claim it Prosperity Health and Wealth Heresy)  I am grateful for Pastor Saiko Woods diligence and character in seeking to have a respectful discussion with a Word of Faith teacher.  Fred Price, Jr. is to be commended in at least being willing to discuss the issues.

Fredrick Price Jr., son of Fredrick Price, Sr., is the first Word of Faith/ Name it claim it teacher that I have seen who was willing to sit down and discuss theological issues with a Reformed pastor, or even another Evangelical who is not Reformed, but stands against the Word of Faith as a heresy.

I made a few comments:  (I have made a few changes; but not much.)

"Excellent Pastor Saiko - I really enjoyed watching and listening to that entire discussion you had with Fred Price, Jr.
One suggestion - I think at one point Fred Price, Jr. thought you were saying when we are dead in sin before regeneration, that we have no will at all. Reformed theology does not teach that the unregenerate man has no will at all; only that the will is so damaged that it is not able to choose good over evil, & we cannot repent and believe unless God awakens us first.

To help Arminians and folks like F.P, jr. understanding what we mean when we say, God "ordains sin" means - it means that God decided before to allow sin to happen; but God did not do the sin. That helped me.
The Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 3, verse 1, “Of God’s Eternal Decree”

"God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."
Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 3, verse 1; and London Baptist 1689 Confession of Faith, chapter 3, verse 1.

Fred Price, Sr. made some very disturbing statements in the past - that the Holy Spirit does not want to live in a body with damaged limbs (Quadriplegics) and blindness of the eyes. (Is God glorified through sickness? - audiotape FP605 - quoted in Hank Hanegraaff's Christianity in Crisis, p. 260. He also said a lot of other disturbing things, but that one is the one I think is the most outrageous and cruel."
I do personally think that many, if not all, of the Word of Faith teachers are heretics and they seem to me to be in it just to make money - it seems motivated by greed - like Kenneth Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn, and those like them seem to be operating from that kind of motivation.   But there does seem to be some Christians who go to these types of churches, but are sincerely unaware that this teaching is heresy.    Then there are many others, who because they want their desires fulfilled, that keep these heretics going by giving to them and listening to them.  2 Timothy 4:3  The false teachers will be judged. (James 3)  But many of the people who keep them going have a part to play in the spread and prevalence of these heresies.  

I saw this by Pastor Saiko Woods tweeting to Dr. James White and asking for his opinion.  This subject is very interesting to me, because I think the Word of Faith movement is one of the most damaging movements within Christianity that is around in recent years.  These heresies and greed and goofiness are being promoted overseas now and being translated into Arabic, Turkish and Farsi and beamed into the Muslim world.  It is very damaging to the believers in Iran, and very confusing to them; and a bad witness to real Muslims.

Because of these heresies and obvious greed, and goofiness, the name of God is being blasphemed among the unbelievers. See Romans 2:24; 2 Samuel 12:14; Isaiah 52:5. 

Early in the discussion, Pastor Saiko Woods mentions this disturbing thing that Leroy Thompson and Creflo Dollar did a while back.  Heresy, goofiness, greed, and sin. 


michael said...

Yes indeed "a very interesting discussion".

I know who I was rooting for but thought there were some weak points that could have been stronger.

Oh well, it was a pleasure sitting and listening to that hour plus discussion between them.

I sensed near the end the Holy Spirit was tickling Pastor Pierce. I hope so. I hope the fruit of what was imparted to him from Pastor Woods comes to fruition?

Thanks for sharing that James!

James Swan said...

Ken, thanks for alerting me to this.

Ken said...

You are welcome. Exposing the Word of Faith / Prosperity Health and Wealth heresy is very important.

As I wrote in the article, one of the great tragedies of today is that these heresies and goofiness are being beamed into other countries, especially, when they are beamed into Muslim countries, the doctrinal Muslims are laughing at this kind of Christianity.

I appreciate the way Pastor Saiko Woods was able to get an audience with Fred Price, Jr. and at least listen to one another in a respectful manner.

Some of his father's statements are really bad. (there are many more of them) Lord willing, I may take the time to type out other ones and find them on the web. Many of them were recorded by Hank Hanegraaff in a cassette tape he put out years ago, that I have. They are difficult to believe that any so called "pastors" say the things that the word of preachers say.

Unknown said...
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Truth Unites... and Divides said...

Ken, an amazing video. Thanks so much for posting it. I will submit a longer comment later.

Truth Unites... and Divides said...

There's a number of things that flitted across my musing brain that I've subsequently forgotten, but a few that remain are:

(1) While I certainly agree that the dialogue was cordial, I couldn't help but remember that the genesis of this sit-down chat was an insult that Pastor Price took exception to. God can (sometimes) use insults/mockery/satire/sarcasm in a beneficial way.

(2) Was pleasantly pleased with Pastor Woods command of Scripture with which he countered some of Pastor Price's proof-texts.

(3) Was very pleased with two aspects of Pastor Price's responses/conduct: First, he said that his goal/objective was "Clarity." Second, he looked and appeared to be teachable. I remember times when he said "School me."

(4) Pastor Woods did at least these two things: One, he gained the respect from Pastor Price for Reform Theology. How? Because of Woods' ability to answer and respond to questions and objections in such a masterful fashion with an African-American flair and elan. Two, this led to Pastor Price being open and teachable to what Pastor Woods was saying. Eg., Primary and Secondary Causes.

(5) This conversation bridged over from WOF vs. Reform theology to Calvinism vs. Arminianism theology. Near the end of the video I was half-expecting Pastor Price to level the age-old charge that Calvinism makes God the Author of Sin. I wonder how Pastor Woods would have responded to that charge.

(6) It would be fantastic if Pastor Price left WoF teaching to become Reform as a result of their initial twitter exchange.

(7) I have no problem with Woods considering Price a fellow brother in Christ, although I can see how this could be problematic in some sense.

(8) I was very impressed with Pastor Woods and tried to google research where he went to seminary, if he did go to seminary. I couldn't find anything, but I did watch a 14-15 minute video by a fellow who repudiates Pastor Woods. That video portrays Pastor Woods in a negative light. Oh well.

But isolating everything to this hour-and-half polemical conversation, I thought God was glorified.

Thanks for posting Ken.

Ken said...

This conversation bridged over from WOF vs. Reform theology to Calvinism vs. Arminianism theology.

Yes, it naturally led to that issue, which seems to be lurking behind all the problems with Word of Faith assumptions that God has surrendered His sovereignty and it is up to us to "choose and make things happen".

Saiko Woods said...

Thx Ken for your objectivity and words of encouragement regarding the video. I pray it will challenge, edify and encourage others on BOTH sides of the theological spectrum and divide. May all of us bow the knee to the authority and sufficiency of Scripture in all its teachings.

Btw, I'm not seminary trained, but have taken several years of formal training in Bible College in Houston (College of Biblical Studies).

Rhology said...

Pastor Woods, I have some thoughts.

You brought up some good points. Thank you.

Some quibbles:
1) You assumed Price Jr is a brother. I don't know why one would assume that about the son of a serious heretic who is following his father's steps. Perhaps you saw something else in him in some other context?
2) I don't recall you calling him to repentance.
3) You did not bring up the horrible things that Price Sr is on record saying and ask him to repudiate them.

It was a useful dialogue and I hope we see more of such things. I pray you will see my quibbles here merely as suggestions for future improvement.

Grace and peace,

Truth Unites... and Divides said...

"Btw, I'm not seminary trained, but have taken several years of formal training in Bible College in Houston (College of Biblical Studies)."

Wow. That speaks well of both you and Houston's CBS.

I thought you were seminary trained because you possess knowledge of NT Greek. I remember instances where you said something like: "This verb is in the present tense" and "This word is in the indicative mode" or something like that.

Anyways, you represented Reform/Biblical theology well and I applaud you.

P.S. I also liked one of your initial inquiries about the Inerrancy and Final Authority of Scripture. A most excellent starting point of discussion.

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Ronnie said...

Saiko Woods is critiquing Creflo Dollar about insinuating Jesus is not Good and in the very next breath he insinuates the same thing about the Holy Spirit by saying we shouldn't pray to the Holy Spirit. He also believes we shouldn't worship the Holy Spirit. He then goes on to say people in the Reformed camp went after him, because he was touching a sacred cow. He attributes this to the fact that it was John MacArthur who was teaching this as if John MacArthur was the first to teach this and not that it has been the orthodox teaching of the church throughout history.