Monday, September 27, 2010

Warning signs of a diabolical spirit and how to recognize them...from a Roman Catholic Perspective

Here's a recent tidbit from Patrick Madrid's blog: Warning signs of a diabolical spirit and how to recognize them. Some of the list makes sense, here though are two to ponder:

14. Lack of deep devotion to Jesus and Mary.

15. Scrupulous adherence to the letter of the law and fanatical zeal in promoting a cause. This characteristic readily opens the door to diabolical influence in reformers and demagogues.


OK, let's see, I'm not really devoted to Mary, and I enjoy the writings of certain reformers.... But then again, this isn't an official infallible list, but rather "the teaching on this subject by the late Dominican theologian, Fr. Jordan Aumann, O.P." Never mind.

11 comments:

dtking said...

On both points mentioned in the blog post, particularly with respect to #14, I oppose to Mr. Madrid the ancient church father Cyprian...

Cyprian (c. 200-58): There is then no reason, dearest brother, for any one to think that the custom of certain persons is to be followed, who have thought in time past that water alone should be offered in the cup of the Lord. For we must inquire whom they themselves have followed. For if in the sacrifice which Christ offered none is to be followed but Christ, assuredly it behoves us to obey and do that which Christ did, and what He commanded to be done, since He Himself says in the Gospel, “If ye do whatsoever I command you, henceforth I call you not servants, but friends.” And that Christ alone ought to be heard, the Father also testifies from heaven, saying, “This is my well-beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him.” Wherefore, if Christ alone must be heard, we ought not to give heed to what another before us may have thought was to be done, but what Christ, who is before all, first did. Neither is it becoming to follow the practice of man, but the truth of God; since God speaks by Isaiah the prophet, and says, “In vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.” And again the Lord in the Gospel repeals this same saying, and says, “Ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.” Moreover, in another place He establishes it, saying, “Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.” But if we may not break even the least of the Lord’s commandments, how much rather is it forbidden to infringe such important ones, so great, so pertaining to the very sacrament of our Lord’s passion and our own redemption, or to change it by human tradition into anything else than what was divinely appointed! For if Jesus Christ, our Lord and God, is Himself the chief priest of God the Father, and has first offered Himself a sacrifice to the Father, and has commanded this to be done in commemoration of Himself, certainly that priest truly discharges the office of Christ, who imitates that which Christ did; and he then offers a true and full sacrifice in the Church to God the Father, when he proceeds to offer it according to what he sees Christ Himself to have offered. ANF: Vol. V, The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle 62, Cæcilius, §14, p. 362.

Jae said...

Cyprian (c. 200-58): “Ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION.”

Yes we agree, 500 years of tradition of men like sola scriptura and sola fide.

The TRADITION of the Isralites when they preformed their worship with its centerpiece the Ark of the Covenant. Come to think of it, it was just a piece of a "physical image" that God himself ordained and commanded to Moses to make , called it Holy of Holies and to be place in the innermost sanctuary where only the holy priest could touch (remember what happened to Uzzah?) and God demanded His people utmost respect, honor and veneration to AN IMAGE? Wow!

I wonder Why? here is a hint:


http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp


Peace

dtking said...

Cyprian (c. 200-58): “Ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may KEEP YOUR OWN TRADITION.”

Yes indeed, reminds me of that man-made tradition of Rome that you've made your own, and which Cyprian rejected and brought to the attention of Pope Stephen...

Cyprian (c. 200-58): For neither does any of us set himself up as a bishop of bishops, nor by tyrannical terror does any compel his colleague to the necessity of obedience; since every bishop, according to the allowance of his liberty and power, has his own proper right of judgment, and can no more be judged by another than he himself can judge another. But let us all wait for the judgment of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is the only one that has the power both of preferring us in the government of His Church, and of judging us in our conduct there. ANF: Vol. V, The Treatises of Cyprian, Concerning the Baptism of Heretics.

Or...

Cyprian (c. 200-58): Whence is that tradition? Whether does it descend from the authority of the Lord and of the Gospel, or does it come from the commands and the epistles of the apostles? For that those things which are written must be done, God witnesses and admonishes, saying to Joshua the son of Nun: “The book of this law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate in it day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein.” Also the Lord, sending His apostles, commands that the nations should be baptized, and taught to observe all things which He commanded. ANF: Vol. V, The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle 73, §2.

Viisaus said...

The veneration of Ark of the Covenant might well be seen as the proverbial "exception that proves the rule." For THAT particular image was personally vouched for by God (being a prefiguration of Christ's body) - but no other image was or is!

So, UNLESS one can get another excepting day-off notice (so to speak), "full written authorization" like in Exodus 35-39 from God to manufacture images to be used religiously, they are not allowed and fall under the 2nd commandment ban.

And moreover: under the New, spiritual Covenant, one would expect believers to get LESS image-oriented, not more. In this regard, RCs and EOs moved in the precisely WRONG direction when they began to imitate the fleshly material temple-practices of the Old Covenant - now seriously outdated - in their services.

(Many OT prophecies promised that the coming Messiah would destroy and abolish all false images - the cult of icons makes a mockery of this promise.)

The veneration of the ark could well be seen as something that God merely tolerated but which the coming of Christ abolished, like the Mosaic decree on divorce (Mark 10).

Viisaus said...

"Yes we agree, 500 years of tradition of men like sola scriptura and sola fide."

It's a contradiction in terms to claim that a person promoting Sola Scriptura could promote "doctrines of men." Sola Scripturist by definition cannot be ADDING anything to God's revelation.

Logically speaking, at most you could accuse him of "taking away" from God's revelation (removing apocryphal books, ignoring ex cathedra papal declarations), but not of "adding to it", which is what Christ was speaking about in this context.

In fact, ONLY Sola Scripturists can even begin to MAKE the elementary division between "commandments of God" and "traditions of men". For RCs and EOs there is a hopeless grey blur between these two, as they are smudged together cannot be properly separated like God intended.

Viisaus said...

And even the Ark of the Covenant was given only "veneration", not full divine worship, which would have been idolatrous. For the ark was only an "image" of Yahweh's presence on earth (or prefiguring image of Christ), and not the figured thing itself.

The ark was like the OT equivalent of the Eucharist: the Philistines could capture it (like evil men could take communion), but it would then only bring ruin to them.

This is an old iconoclastic argument: in the New Covenant, only the Eucharistic elements are the true, Biblically-appointed "Image of Christ", and thus deserve veneration - but not full worship as RCs would claim.

So to put it succinctly: RCs say that all sorts of images deserve "veneration" (in practice, second-rate worship), and that consecrated hosts deserve full divine worship. Protestants say that no image today deserves to be religiously honored, except for the Eucharist, and even that should only be "venerated" as a mystical figure, and not idolatrous worshipped as God Himself.

Jae said...

"So, UNLESS one can get another excepting day-off notice (so to speak), "full written authorization" like in Exodus 35-39 from God to manufacture images to be used religiously, they are not allowed and fall under the 2nd commandment ban."

So who said so, you! Now you are claiming authority?

Just think of it, the mere FACT God commanded and ordained an "image" that is pleasing to Him enough for us to say He didn't prohibit the use on these to worship Him alone. You may also look to King Solomon's temple full of religious "images" that God was also pleased.If I may add Jesus is also a "mere physical image" of a man which is made up of atoms to which you offer adoration.

Do you have any idea of how the Ark of OT was so important, with people of God paying the honor, reverence, and holiness because Jews knew VERY well the presence, power and the word of God is IN the Ark. Look into the Book of Genesis:

Of how's God Holy Spirit had "OVERSHADOWED" the Ark!

Of how's the GLORY CLOUD OF GOD descended to the Ark!

Of how's this guy who accidentally just touched the Ark and GOD struck him DEAD! of only holy priests could touch!

Of how the people of God (Moses, David and the Jews) gave homage, honor to the ARK of GOD in OT!

Of how the people of God treated the ARK with such reverence and holiness!

Of why GOD instructed the Ark to be made PURE GOLD INSIDE and OUT! that gold symbolizes PURITY and Royalty!

Of Why such reverence that GOD HIMSELF demanded from HIS people?

Just think of what is INSIDE of the ARK of OT and the ARK of NT, then you will clearly see why God asked.....you! And who said Christ abolished it? It is more of Biblical typology where you can care to read:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp

About sola scriptura...on the first place it is NOWHERE found and taught in the Scripture and for sola fide there is only one instance found in the Bible where the 2 words "faith alone" are together...sadly, is it rejected and condemned.

Viisaus said...

"Do you have any idea of how the Ark of OT was so important, with people of God paying the honor, reverence, and holiness because Jews knew VERY well the presence, power and the word of God is IN the Ark."

First, stop yelling with all those exclamation marks. It does not make your slogans more convincing.

Methinks you are exaggerating the importance of the Ark for your own pro-image purposes - after all, Israelites seem to have gotten along quite well even without the Ark ever since the attack of Nebuchadnezzar to the coming of Christ. At the end of the day, it was just a symbolical prefiguration.

Besides, it was prophesized by Jeremiah even before the demolition of the First Temple:

"And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit [it]; neither shall [that] be done any more."

(Jeremiah 3:16)

Quite belittling language there from the prophet, not matching Jae's inflated incense-filled rhetoric....

natamllc said...

We should not quickly rush out and say that diabolical spirit exists expressly with Rome alone. No, no we should not.

Let the contempt be equally heaped upon our dear lady of Judaism too.

Let's not stop there. Lets continue heaping upon all mankind as well seeing this pattern seems to be a part of the human gene pool?

Maybe Isaiah can lay to rest any ideas of unequal heaps of scorn?

Isa 2:6 For you have rejected your people, the house of Jacob, because they are full of things from the east and of fortune-tellers like the Philistines, and they strike hands with the children of foreigners.
Isa 2:7 Their land is filled with silver and gold, and there is no end to their treasures; their land is filled with horses, and there is no end to their chariots.
Isa 2:8 Their land is filled with idols; they bow down to the work of their hands, to what their own fingers have made.
Isa 2:9 So man is humbled, and each one is brought low-- do not forgive them!


This whole chapter is a fair and balanced approach to law and gospel teachings.

However, it ends on quite the sour note for those breathing and reading this post:

Isa 2:22 Stop regarding man in whose nostrils is breath, for of what account is he?

Who says Rome has her problems? My stupid rebellious flesh just doesn't obey God either! grrrrr

And to boot, neither can she!

Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

What is quite remarkable, I might say, is if you continue digging out the nuggets from Scripture you will come to these Words of Isaiah too, which might enlighten you when you come to them in Chapter 4:

Isa 4:2 In that day the branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel.
Isa 4:3 And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem,
Isa 4:4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.


I might say it might be wise then that we continue to struggle to enter into that Sabbath Rest ceasing from our own self works seeing the command is to just keep shining His Light on that diabolical spirit so that she doesn't slither right on in and have dinner with us and our children in our house too?

1Th 5:22 Abstain from every form of evil.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.

Jae said...

"First, stop yelling with all those exclamation marks."

Exclamation marks are not indicative of yelling, CAPITALIZED letters are....so stop whining.

The POINT of the matter IS God Himself indeed commanded and ordained such an "image". He is Almighty, All-powerful God and He doesn't need Moses, David or the Ark....but WHY? WHAT for?

THE MERE FACT He ordained and that it pleases Him is indicative of the fact that He is not against "images" per se...figure out why.

natamllc said...

JAE

I suppose you conflate the one incorrectly with what the Truth of the matter is, now?

Why would you continue when we have such warrant as this Word to forgo such human practice?

Oh, and by the way, what God was doing with Israel and what God tolerated with those so disposed otherwise is a far cry from what the RCC and EO and any other religious faith practices contrary to Scripture:

Heb 9:1 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness.
Heb 9:2 For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place.
Heb 9:3 Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place,
Heb 9:4 having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron's staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Heb 9:5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.
Heb 9:6 These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties,
Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.
Heb 9:8 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing
Heb 9:9 (which is symbolic for the present age). According to this arrangement, gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the conscience of the worshiper,
Heb 9:10 but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation)
Heb 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


One receives "eternal redemption", not from practice. One receives "eternal redemption" because they were precluded by virtue of their name being recorded in the Book of Life which exists in the Presence of God in Heaven before the foundation of the world. Such a book Isaiah came to understand exists, surely by the same Holy Spirit that wrote those verses cited above from Hebrews 9:

Isa 4:2 In that day the branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel.
Isa 4:3 And he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem,
Isa 4:4 when the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning.