Saturday, June 26, 2010

The Qur'an Proves Bible is True

"Thy Word is Truth" John 17:17
"کلام تو حقیقت است"

The picture is of the Bible in Farsi/Persian. کتاب مقدس = "Holy Book"

I interacted with comments by a Muslim named Yahya Snow over at Turrentfan's website/blog: I changed a few details for better wording and added some more thoughts.


Turretinfan rightly used Surah 10:94 to exhort Muslims to read the Gospel and ask the people of the previous Scriptures: "To my Muslim readers who live in non-Islamic countries, now too is your chance. Recall what your Koran says was told to Mohammed:

Surah 10:94 If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt."

Turretinfan's combox

Yahya Snow wrote:

Before I do so I would like to stress the Quran does in no way shape or form ask us to consider what you have today as 100% inspired.

Since the Bibles we have today are essentially the same as the Bible manuscripts long before Muhammad came along; you are wrong. Dr. James White has adequately shown in debates with Bart Ehrman and Shabir Ally and others that the honesty and openness we have about the history of the text and the textual variants do not affect any major doctrines and are a very small percentage and that is an issue of scribal errors, not affecting the doctrines of inspiration or inerrancy.
The Scriptures are essentially the same (textual variants about Mark 16:9-20 and a few other minor passages do not affect any major doctrine of the Bible) as those long before Muhammad's time, (many Manuscripts from 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th centuries - all before Muhammad; and "there is no changing of God's word" (Qur'an 10:65; 6:116; 18:27; 6:34); and "ask the people reading the book before you" means both the Torat (OT) and the Injeel (NT); you are therefore wrong.

These articles below from by Sam Shamoun show that Muhammad did doubt a lot in the Meccan period after Warqa died - the Islamic sources show this.

They also show that it means the Scriptures before the Qur'an including both OT (Torat) and NT ( Injeel) and that the Qur'an and the Muslim sources did not believe that the texts of the previous Scriptures had been altered.

Surah 10, Yunis (Jonah) was revealed in the Meccan period, Pickthall says in the last 4 years of the Meccan period before the Hegira. (The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, Mohammad Marmaduke Pickthall, p. 157)

Surah 10:94 is talking to Muhammad. It was a encouragement for him to stop doubting. He is to ask the people reading the book that was revealed before the Qur'an. ( Includes both Torah and the Injeel. - both OT and NT)

These articles show that "no one can change the word of Allah" and since our Bible today is the same as in 600-700 AD; it has not been corrupted; never was. The articles show that the commentaries say that the "Christians and Jews distort the meanings of the words", but it never accuses them of changing the text itself.

The articles below by Sam Shamoun also use famous Muslim commentators like Ibn Kathir and Ibn Abbas; and Hadith of Al Bukhari and other Muslim sources.

Yahya Snow wrote:
“The Quran is al-Furqan(the Criterion) thus it is used to confirm what parts of your book is correct and which parts are incorrect.“

The Bible is also called “Al Furqan” (the Criterion) الفرقان
by the Qur'an: (Surah 2:53; 21:48)

It is also called a light
And a Reminder - ذ کر

And in Surah 21:7 - it says that the OT was inspired (وحی)
And to go ask the follower of the Reminder “if you know not”.

So, these passages confirm that our understanding of Surah 10:94 is correct. Muhammad is instructed to not doubt the previous revelations, because no one can change the word of God; and they were true, inspired, perfect, guidance, light, criterion, and reminder of the true path and give wisdom for salvation. ( 2 Timothy 3:15-17)

Yahya Snow wrote:
So whatever agrees with the Qur'an from your book then we know this material within your books is correct.

It is the opposite, whatever comes later (the Qur’an) and does not agree with the previous revelation, the Bible, the later supposed revelation is proved to be the false revelation. (Galatians 1:8-9; Jude 3, Revelation 22:18 and the Qur’an also teaches this in Surah 2:79 – “Woe to those who write Scripture with their hands and then say, “This is from Allah” . . . I realize this, according to the Qur'an, is not applied to Muhammad and his revelation, but the principle is correct. If the Bible is true, OT and NT, then the Qur’an is false. Only what agrees with the previous Scriptures is correct.

Yahya Snow wrote:
“At-Tabari goes further and states “do not ask those who are dishonest or are unbelievers”

Problem with that is the Qur’an calls the Christians honest, that the disciples of Jesus are true believers, followers of Allah, helpers of Allah, and therefore, full of integrity. (Surah 61:14; 5:111 (the disciples of Jesus are believers and helpers of Allah); 5:68-69 (the Christians believe in the Scriptures, Allah as One (Mark 12:29; Deut. 6:5; I Timothy 2:5-6); and believe in judgment day, and seek to do the right things); 5:82 (the monks at the time of Muhammad in the east who are not proud). It also calls some of the Christians and Jews dishonest and unbelievers – and those who believe God has a physical son with a wife as unbelievers – Surah 6:101; 112 – this is true; since no true Christians have ever believed this; nor that there are three gods, nor that Mary was a part of the Trinity (Surah 5:116); it proves the Qur’an mis-understood what Christianity was all about; and the true Christians are vindicated in history; and God did indeed cause true Christians to be the uppermost, victorious (Surah 61:14) in history.

The history of the church of the first 4 Centuries shows that the Christians won the Roman Empire by evangelism in love and good deeds under persecution and torture. They were victorious through weakness. The message of the cross is foolishness to unregenerate people because it means we must be weak and admit we are sinners and in need of a Savior and that we must die in order to live. This is the opposite of the flesh – human efforts and human striving for power in politics and military might and force and externalisms and legalisms; these are the very heart and emphasis of the Islamic religion.

All Christians and all history shows Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead. So, the victory of the Christians is the victory of the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. This was the message that won the Roman Empire and all subsequent western history. Much of the Middle East and N. Africa also held to this message until Islam forced by the sword and wiped out the churches in N. Africa and most of the Middle East.

According to the Qur'an, Allah deceived the Jews and Christians and everyone else to believe that Jesus was killed on the cross - Surah 3:54-55; 4:157-158.

Allah is the best of deceivers. (kheir ol makkareen- الله خیر المکارین
Qur'an 3:54

But the living and true God cannot lie (Titus 1:2; Hebrews 6:18) and God cannot sin (1 John 1:5; Habakkuk 1:13).

This is a big contradiction in the Qur'an, because the "uppermost" and victorious group was the Christians who believed in the death of Christ on the cross and the resurrection and the Deity of Christ and the Trinity.

Surah 3:55 says that the true believers would be the victorious ones until the day of resurrection.

History shows that the Allah of the Qur'an failed; because where are those "Muslim" believers in the first century? There is no evidence of their existence. This shows the Qur'an is wrong.

Then, there are more verses that are perhaps the strongest in the Qur'an that show the Bible is true - Surah 5:46-47 (below) and 5:68, which many Christians have pointed out before. Sam Shamoun did a great job recently here with Dr. White and here on the program "Jesus or Muhammad?" on the Aramaic Broadcasting Network that "confirming what had come before him" actually literally says, "confirming what is between his hands".
بین یدیه
Farsi speakers know these words also from Arabic, we use بین
(be'n) for "between" and know of "yad" (ید) as "the hand". We can see it. (Farsi is not a Semitic language, but contains about 40% Arabic in it; because of the Arab Islamic conquering of Persia and converting Iranians to Islam and changing their script and affecting their language.)

وَقَفَّيْنَا عَلَىٰ آثَارِهِم بِعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ ۖ وَآتَيْنَاهُ الْإِنجِيلَ فِيهِ هُدًى وَنُورٌ وَمُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَهُدًى وَمَوْعِظَةً لِّلْمُتَّقِينَ

46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الْإِنجِيلِ بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ ۚ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ

(47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.


thegrandverbalizer19 said...

With the name of God, Peace be unto those who follow the guidance from their Lord.

The refutation of this blog entry is found here:

and here:

peace and grace.

Ken said...

You did not refute it at all -

And the refutation of the GV19's arguments are in the comboxes there.

Anonymous said...

Do not put too much hope on Greek texts as word of God. Where is Logia of Jesus in Aramaic. Where is Matthew’s Aramaic gospel?

P46 (175CE) is Greek manuscript with the largest percentage of difference on record. This just proved that Church have been changing words since early 2nd century at will.

Here is the words of the early church father, Origen (3rd century CE):
“The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists or through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please.” Origen, early church father in “Commentary on Matthew.”

Regarding the oldest surviving fragment, Colin Roberts compared P52 writings using ONLY 5 samples from the early 2nd century CE back in 1935 and concluded based on those 5 samples; P52 was from the early 2nd century.

(Brent Nongbri’s 2005. The Use and Abuse of P52: Papyrological Pitfalls in the Dating of the Fourth Gospel)
What I have done is to show that any serious consideration of the window of possible dates for P52 must include dates in the later second and early third centuries. – Brent

Compare with 4th century codexes. You will be surprise how Holy Spirit inside the scribes fail to prevent them from changing words of God ever since the beginning.

Ken said...

Do not put too much hope on Greek texts as word of God. Where is Logia of Jesus in Aramaic. Where is Matthew’s Aramaic gospel?

There is nothing else in extant historical evidence except the Greek manuscripts. No Hebrew or Aramaic logia has ever been found.

The Logia of Matthew in Aramaic/Hebrew is a theory, but nothing ever found. Papias and Eusebius and Irenaeus mention this, yes; but nothing has ever been found yet.

Papias of Hierapolis (c. 60 – 130 AD) was an Early Christian Bishop of Hierapolis in Anatolia, whose book, "Expositions of the Oracles of the Lord", in which he stated that "Matthew compiled the logia (τὰ λόγια) in the Hebrew language, and each person interpreted them as he was able", survives only in quotations made by Irenaeus and Eusebius.