Friday, May 21, 2010

A prayer to our Blessed Mother, from us, poor children of Rome

We on the Beggars All team have recently been having some second thoughts about the content we produce, especially given a few posts that have come before along these lines (link 1) (link 2). With that in mind, we got together to adapt the following prayer to reflect our newfound discoveries, that distinctive Roman dogma actually are found in the Holy Scripture:

Preserve me, O God, Mary, and ye saints, for I take refuge in you. I said to Blessed Virgin, “You are my mediator and rescue; I have no good besides you.”

As for the saints who are in the earth and those who have passed on to the heavens (to the latter of whom I speak daily), They are the majestic ones in whom is all my delight.

The joys of those who have bartered for another object of piety will be multiplied; I shall indeed pour out their drink offerings of Messiah's blood, Surely will I take their names upon my lips.

The Blessed Mother is the portion of my inheritance and my cup; You support my lot.

The lines have fallen to me in pleasant places; Indeed, my heritage is beautiful to me.

I will bless my Blessed Mother and the saints who have counseled me; Indeed, my mind instructs me in the night.

I have set my Mother continually before me; Because she is at my right hand, I will not be shaken.

Therefore my heart is glad and my glory rejoices; My flesh also will dwell securely.

For she will not abandon my soul to Sheol, only to Purgatory (for what are mere billions of years in comparison to eternity?); Nor will she allow her Holy Son to undergo decay.

You will make known to me the path of life; In your presence is fullness of joy; In your right hand there are pleasures forever.

(Hat tip:  Psalm 16)

19 comments:

Lvka said...

LOL! :-) Yeah, I totally agree: here's a similar take on another Bible passage:

Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Blessed is she who believed that there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.


(Hat tip: Luke's Gospel)

[Oh, wait: that's actually the original.. hmm.. Darn!] :-)

louis said...

The official Psalm 15 is pretty good too, especially the line about "deific milk", whatever that is:

"Preserve me, O Lady, for I have hoped in thee: do thou bestow on me the dew of thy grace. Thy virginal womb has begotten the Son of the Most High. Blessed be thy breasts, by which thou hast nourished the Savior with deific milk. Let us give praise to the glorious Virgin: whosoever ye be that have found grace and mercy through her. Give glory to her name: and praise forever her conception and her birth. Glory be to the Father, etc."

http://www.franciscan-sfo.org/ap/bona/PSALTER.htm#Ps%2011

John Bugay said...

Lvka, I'm glad to see that you are looking at "the original". You might appreciate this one:

While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

How about this from the same chapter?

I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Does this make you feel good about the way you have treated the folks on this blog? How about your demeanor, generally, approaching Protestant sources?

Lvka said...

Hi, John!

What seems to be the problem?

Rhology said...

Um, thanks Lvka. I guess. I don't know what point you're supposed to be making.

Rhology said...

Extra points, BTW, for anyone who can find all the parts I changed out of Ps 16. Look carefully.

zipper778 said...

I think these mock prayers to Mary blogs make excellent points. Seriously, why do we have to go to Mary when Jesus is our Mediator and sent the Holy Spirit to show us His truth?

Is Mary blessed? Yes, "among women" though. That verse just proves even more that Roman Catholics have to imput meanings into the Scriptures.

Let the Word of God speak for itself. Unless of course, you don't understand it.

Andrew said...

Lvka, were people praying to Mary in those instances? If not, then what support do they lend to the practice?

Lvka said...

If by praying you mean asking her for her intercessions, then no. They were, however, praising her: which is what we also do.

lozeerose said...

I am going to leave a quick note (and probably return for a lengthier one later) for you all to consider:
1 Hear, O sons, a father's instruction, and be attentive, that you may gain insight;
2 for I give you good precepts: do not forsake my teaching.
3 When I was a son with my father, tender, the only one in the sight of my mother,
4 he taught me, and said to me, "Let your heart hold fast my words; keep my commandments, and live;
5 do not forget, and do not turn away from the words of my mouth. Get wisdom; get insight.
6 Do not forsake her, and she will keep you; love her, and she will guard you.
7 The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom, and whatever you get, get insight.
8 Prize her highly, and she will exalt you; she will honor you if you embrace her.
9 She will place on your head a fair garland; she will bestow on you a beautiful crown."
(Proverbs (RSV) 4)

If you think of this through, this passage, which speaks of gaining/keeping Divine Wisdom provides us gives a prefiguring of Mary's nature and relation towards us, her spiritual children. It also speaks to the authority of the Church and more can be said just on this passage. But like I said, I may return later.

Rhology said...

You know, maybe, just maybe, that psg in Proverbs refers to the author's mother. Just a thought.

lozeerose said...

I am sure that on one level it is. But as one who holds the Bible as the final rule, you should know that because God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, His Word is just as timeless. So if Proverbs 4 refers to Solomon's mother then too it refers to Jesus' mother (He is the seed of David after all) whom He later gave to us (Jn 19:26-27). That is why Peter warned us against personal interpretation in 2Pt 1:20.

Would you not agree that in "Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. [And] to interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words. In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. 'For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression'" (1997 Catechism of the Catholic Church 109-110)?

Rhology said...

So if Proverbs 4 refers to Solomon's mother then too it refers to Jesus' mother (He is the seed of David after all) whom He later gave to us (Jn 19:26-27).

And I suppose that the psg in Genesis in which Judah fathers a child with Tamar, it refers to Mary too, since both mary and Tamar are mothers.
This makes approximately zero sense.


That is why Peter warned us against personal interpretation in 2Pt 1:20.

That's not what 2 Pet 1:20 refers to. Atrocious exegesis. Fail.


Would you not agree

Yes. Now please start doing so.

lozeerose said...

That's not what 2 Pet 1:20 refers to.

First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. (2Peter (RSV) 1:20-21)

Seems pretty clear to me. And please use a rebuttal other than the "Holy Spirit helps me interpret scripture" because that does not account for all the variations of interpretation including the differences you and I have. That said, I do believe that the Holy Spirit does indeed prompt individuals but the sole duty of giving definitive interpretation and instruction was given only to one visible institution (refereed to by Paul as "the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1Timothy (RSV) 3:15))

This makes approximately zero sense.

First off, keep in mind that this is my own, fallible reading of the passage, which, as far as I can tell is not in contradiction with Sacred Scripture or Catholic teaching. So we can surely disagree here. Second, I picked up on the a reference made by a "louis" who placed a link to the Psalter of Mary by St. Bonaventure who refers to Proverbs 4.

From zipper778:Why do we have to go to Mary when Jesus is our Mediator and sent the Holy Spirit to show us His truth?

Praying (defined by M-W Dictionary as "often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea") to Mary or any other saint is possible only because God allows and wills it. These members of the Church Triumphant are alive in Christ (Rm 8:38-39) and are allowed to present petitions on our behalf, through Christ (Rv 8:3-4), just as we do here on earth (Jm 5:16 - loaded verse) with one difference - their prayers are more efficacious (see Jm 5:16 again).

Christ obviously allows us to serve as co-mediators in the sense that we mediate/intercede on the behalf of others. Keep in mind that our mediation, and that of the saints, is dependent solely on His Will and One Mediation without which we would not permitted to pray for one another because we have direct access to Him.

Is Mary blessed? Yes, "among women" though.

Do you refer to her as "blessed?" For example, "Our Blessed Mother" or "Most Blessed Virgin," etc. (Lk 1:48)?

Mary is the Mother of God, the mother of Jesus Who is both Man and God. She is the God-bearer and the first person to be saved by Christ. If you could make your mother any way you wished, wouldn't you make her perfect, free form sin?

Unless of course, you don't understand it.

Who gave you the authority to infallibly understand/interpret Scripture?

Rhology said...

Interpretation of a prophecy received by an individual church member, is not in view here; rather the emphasis is on the means of God's inspiring the text. Peter says that the prophetic word is yet more certain than his own eyewitness experiences, and goes on to tell us that "no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God".


And please use a rebuttal other than the "Holy Spirit helps me interpret scripture" because that does not account for all the variations of interpretation including the differences you and I have

Sure it does. The Holy Spirit is helping me and is not helping you. It accts for it just fine.


First off, keep in mind that this is my own, fallible reading of the passage

So you're sharing it...why? Why not just give us the infallible interp from the infall Magisterium?
Oh, you can't? So...what's the Mag good for?


) to Mary or any other saint is possible only because God allows and wills it.

And you know that b/c RCC told you. It's not in the Bible. The Bible says there's ONE mediator between God and man. Put another mediator in between man and Jesus...then that becomes two mediators between God and man. This is kindergarten arithmetic.


Christ obviously allows us to serve as co-mediators in the sense that we mediate/intercede on the behalf of others.

Or maybe we aren't mediators on behalf of anyone. B/c Christ is the ONLY ONE.
(Intercessor is not the same as mediator, BTW.)


Do you refer to her as "blessed?" For example, "Our Blessed Mother" or "Most Blessed Virgin," etc. (Lk 1:48)?

Where does "Our Blessed Mother" or "Most Blessed Virgin" appear in Lk 1:48?


Mary is the Mother of God, the mother of Jesus Who is both Man and God

You need badly to read this.


Who gave you the authority to infallibly understand/interpret Scripture?

I'm sorry, did you just say that Jell-O has no bones and the further 9 fly the much?

lozeerose said...

Rho,

Your contepmt of God and His Word knows no limits does it? On what basis do you presume that the Holy Spirit is doing something more for you than I? As far as I can tell we are both baptized Christians and as such have received the Holy Spirit - we've been born again through "the water and the spirit."

It is this self-proclaimed infallibilty that is at the root error and heresy of Protestantism. The person who does not agree with your personal interpretation of Scripture is wrong. As a Catholic I am able to defer to the Magesterium for guidance and thus can state whether something is dogmatically in line with the Church or not (within my own ability of course). And if I do not know the answer or teaching I can refer others to the Church's reps, such as a priest, for clarification.

That is what Peter is saying to us. Scripture is written through men by God and such can only be interpreted by men through God. And God, in the person of Jesus, established an authoritative Chruch to do just that. The authority the Church has does not require her to define all dogmatic Truth at once. In fact no organization works in that fashion. The Church always acts in patience and prudence defining dogma as the need arises, usually when some heresy is beginning to spread (Arianism, Nestorianism) and at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. Thus some dogmatic truths are defined later (the Canon of the Bible, Trinity, Immaculate Conception, etc.).

Now, I share my own thoughts on Scripture for the same reason as you - because I can.

On the point of intercession vis-a-vis mediation - they are synonyms. Both word refer to a person or act that serves as a link between two parties. Thus if you pray for me you are mediating or interceding for me. According to your faulty interpretation of Scripture this is okay for people on earth but not for people in the prescence of God. Do not limit the Lord's abilities. If He willed us out of nothing He can surely will intercessory prayer.

My comment about Lk 1:48 was made to make a point concerning the respect and honor we give to Our Blessed Mother whom you denegrate in the face of Sacred Scripture. If I can offend you by denegrating your mom how do you think that makes Jesus feel?

I read the link you provided and must say that the argument borders on the same one provided by JWs, which we can all agree is truly heretical. (BTW what Chruch infallibly defined that doctrine?) Mary is the mother of Jesus who is the second person of the Trinity. He is both human and divine but is one person. Mary is the mother of that person. Maybe you can understand it better this way: Mary is the mother of Jesus, the Second Person of the Triune God. Mary bore God in Her womb. Mary is the mother of God. Jesus, who is God, was born of her womb. Remember though, Catholic teaching does not state that Mary is older or better than God. In fact, it was God - Jesus - Who saved her and made her. She gave birth to Him making her the new Eve (for another discussion).

Let us wrap this whole thing up by stating that your mockery of Jesus' mom is surely an offense to her and Him alike but he loves and forgives you anyway (you must be of contrite heart of course). Also, your juvenile writing and inability or desire to address the issues head does not convey the potential I know God has placed in you.

I will pray for you - that you come to know, love and respect Our Blessed Mother as Jesus does and as the Apostles and the saints do. May her intercession bring you to the Fullness of Truth which is her Son Jesus Christ. Amen.

Rhology said...

Your contepmt of God and His Word knows no limits does it?

If you could show me in the Word of God where I'm wrong, I'd be very pleased.
However my contempt for RCC runs very deep indeed. And since for you RCC = the Word of God, I can see how you, RC drone that you are, would think that statement is justified.


On what basis do you presume that the Holy Spirit is doing something more for you than I?

B/c I believe the Gospel and you don't. That has happened b/c the HS has regenerated me and not you.
But that doesn't mean you can't repent and be saved. I urge you to call upon the Lord.



As far as I can tell we are both baptized Christians

You're a baptised ROMANIST, far from the Gospel and the saving God of the Bible.



It is this self-proclaimed infallibilty that is at the root error and heresy of Protestantism

It is this self-proclaimed infallibilty that is at the root error and heresy of Romanism.



The person who does not agree with your personal interpretation of Scripture is wrong

The person who does not agree with your personal interpretation of the Magisterium is wrong.



As a Catholic I am able to defer to the Magesterium for guidance and thus can state whether something is dogmatically in line with the Church or not

As a Reformed Baptist I am able to defer to the Scripture for guidance and thus can state whether something is dogmatically in line with God's revealed truth or not.



And if I do not know the answer or teaching I can refer others to the Church's reps, such as a priest, for clarification.

So your priest is infallible?
What if he consults with you right after raping an altar boy? Does that have any effect on his judgment and teaching ability? What good is it to go to another fallible human when, as you said, "It is this self-proclaimed infallibilty that is at the root error and heresy of Protestantism"?



Scripture is written through men by God and such can only be interpreted by men through God. And God, in the person of Jesus, established an authoritative Chruch to do just that.

Where does Peter say all that?



The authority the Church has does not require her to define all dogmatic Truth at once

How about a little bit? When did it do that? How do you know?



If I can offend you by denegrating your mom how do you think that makes Jesus feel?

1) Where did I denigrate Mary?
2) So you don't have an answer to my question?



I read the link you provided and must say that the argument borders on the same one provided by JWs, which we can all agree is truly heretical. (BTW what Chruch infallibly defined that doctrine?)

The Bible did, that's all *I* need.
So...what church infallibly defined your comment? None? Oh, then what are you doing even talking to me?



Mary is the mother of Jesus, the Second Person of the Triune God. Mary bore God in Her womb.

Unfortunately you apparently don't understand how the linked post destroys this equivocation. But sorry, you don't strike me as the deepest thinker, so I can see how this might have gone over your head. Read it again.



your mockery of Jesus' mom

The only way I know how to respond to this is to invite anyone to read what I *did* say, and also to urge you to realise that misquoting people like this is a grave sin. And that you're being idiotic.

Peace,
Rhology

zipper778 said...

lozeerose said: Do you refer to her as "blessed?" For example, "Our Blessed Mother" or "Most Blessed Virgin," etc. (Lk 1:48)?

No, I refer to Mary as being a blessed woman, someone who offered herself to God to be His servant. She also had the honor of being the best eyewitness of Christ's redeeming work after His Ascension.

lozeerose said: If you could make your mother any way you wished, wouldn't you make her perfect, free form sin?

Yes I would, and in fact I wouldn't stop there. I would make my dad perfect, and my grandparents perfect and everyone else who is close to me perfect. If I had the power to make my mother perfect I would have the power to do everything else. There's really no point to your argument here.

lozeerose said: Who gave you the authority to infallibly understand/interpret Scripture?

You know, the funny thing is that I'm not the one who is claiming infallibility, it is your church that does that. I'm only appealing to logic and reason. In other words, do you know how to read? Well guess what, you're interpreting everything that you read. You may read a papal encyclical and not understand the point of it, or you might misunderstand a dogmatic proclamation. You had to interpret that too. Plus, they're all written in Latin originally anyways so you have to read someone else's interpretation of the encyclical. So by the time you have read a proclamation from the Vatican, it is an interpretation of an interpretation.

I'm just trying to appeal to your common sense. Do words have meaning? Can you read? Then you have the ability to start to understand the Bible. Are there hard passages, sure. No one is denying that. But you can understand the Bible just like you can understand a cartoon on a Bible story like Veggietales. Give yourself some credit.

Rhology said...

Yes I would, and in fact I wouldn't stop there. I would make my dad perfect, and my grandparents perfect.

Exactly. You know what? Why not just pretend that everyone in Jesus' lineage was immaculately conceived? All the way back to Adam!
That whole thing about Judah sleeping with his daughter-in-law and then saying "I've done wrong", well, we can explain that away! He didn't REALLY sin, just like Mary didn't REALLY think Jesus was a nut job, coming to take Him back to Nazareth's loony-bin where He belonged. After all, Roma locuta est and all that.