Tuesday, January 12, 2010

Common Questions about Islam and Muslims

Darlene in the combox asked some good questions about Islam that are very common in these days. I decided this would be good for a separate post.

Ken,

Do you think the Muslims worship the same God as Christians - that is, YHWH? I've been commenting over on Seth's blog and he seems to think so.

Darlene,
Thank you for you good questions! Many people have these same questions.

The short answer is no; the god of Islam is not the one true God of the Bible, who is a Tri-une (Latin: Tri – Unitas = “three in one”) God. Doctrinally, Islam rejects the Trinity and the Deity of Christ, so the doctrine of who Allah is in Islam is not the God of the Bible. They do not worship the same God because they don’t have the one mediator (I Timothy 2:5; John 14:6; Acts 4:12), Jesus the Messiah, the word of God from all eternity who became flesh. (John 1:1, 1:14) Allah is a monad, all alone; and Muslims are actually taught not to think too deeply about Allah. Allah cannot technically be called “He”, because “he” is a pronoun for a man, boys, males. One of my Turkish neighbors told me, “Don’t say “he” for Allah; Allah is “it” !” Allah is impersonal also. Allah is more like a mysterious force. The goal in Islam is not to know God personally nor have a personal relationship of trust with Him; but rather the goal in Islam for the individual to just to obey Allah; obey His laws. The relationship in Christianity emphasizes that we are “sons of God”, God is our Father; whereas in Islam the emphasis is on Master to slave. The common Muslim name, “Abdullah” means “the slave of Allah”. Islam does not have anything like we have in the Bible in John 17:3 - "this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent." Knowing God in an close, living, spiritual relationship is foreign to the Islamic system.

However, Muslims are referring to the same concept (same referent) as the one Sovereign, Invisible creator of all things, who revealed Himself through prophets and books. (Monotheism with basis on the previous Scriptures, the Torah and the Gospel) They are claiming to worship the God of the Bible; but in reality they are not. They think they are worshiping the one true creator God, but they are not.
The Roman Catholic Catechism that says “the Muslims . . . together with us they adore the one, merciful God"; is wrong. (Catechism, # 841) They think they do because it is monotheism and has revelation and books, but without the Incarnation and the redemption of the atonement and resurrection, they cannot know God. They do not adore the God of Bible, because they cannot approach Him, nor come to know Him and His holiness without faith in Jesus Christ as the one mediator and Savior and Lord; God in the flesh.

So doctrinally, the god of Islam is not the God of the Bible. However, linguistically, there is nothing wrong with the phonetic sounds, “Allah” in missionary contexts and cultures that have that word as the best word for the one true creator God. In Arabic, that is the best word for the Hebrew Elohim in the OT and for Theos in the New Testament. In other Islamic cultures, “Allah” is still the best word for their heart languages. However, in Farsi/Persian, the language of Iran, Allah is not the best word. The word for God in Farsi/Persian is “Khoda”. That is a matter of language and translation. Godly and doctrinal missionaries will work hard to teach the Deity of Christ and the Trinity so that the new believers in Christ who come from an Islamic background will truly understand and worship the God of the Bible. So, for Arabs, we would use “Allah” when speaking of God; no problem. But as we make disciples and teach and preach the gospel, we must fill in the proper doctrinal content of who Allah really is.

YHWH is the Hebrew word for the covenant keeping God of Israel in the Old Testament, derived from the first person “I am that I am” (Exodus 3:14). In most English translations we have translated it, “LORD” with capitals to distinguish it from “Adonai” (Lord, boss, master). Christian cultures in the Arabic speaking world use the word “Rabb” for this word (YHWH/Adonai), which means, “lord”, “boss”, “master”. The Roman Catholics, Armenians, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants in the middle East who speak Arabic all use “Allah” because it is their language, and that is the best word in their language for Elohim in the OT and Theos in the NT. Bibles in Arabic, and other Muslim languages use Allah for Elohim and Theos. But not Iranians, they have their own language and word. The Turks have their own Turkish word for God, "Tanri", but the traditional Muslims in Turkey want to keep "Allah". Tanri is mostly used by the modern more secular Turks.


Also, do you think that Islam is a violent religion or that only the few extreme Muslim terrorists can be placed in that category. Iow, are the majority of Muslims in the world peaceful?

Your “or” in your sentence here has confused the categories. Islam is the religion/doctrine/political system whereas Muslims are people. Islam teaches violence, but most Muslims are not terrorists or "Jihadists" in the sense of wanting to take over the world by force and use tactics like suicide bombings. But, if there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world today, and, say, 10-20 % believe in Jihad to spread Islam, then that is a lot of people! Most Muslims would believe that true Jihad is supposed to be "self-defense" or "just war".

One of the problems with answering this question is that Muslims will take offense and take it personally. So it is important, I think to clearly distinguish between the political-religious-social system of Islam vs. the people, who call themselves Muslims.

Islam is the religion/political system and teaches fighting and killing in order to subdue the pagans/infidels/unbelievers, so that Islam can spread. (see again Surah 8:39; 9:5; 9:29) This is what Muhammad did by subduing the Arabs in the Arabian peninsula and it is what the successors to Muhammad (The Khalifa) did in carrying out Jihad for centuries until they were stopped. This is why they attacked Persia and the Byzantine Empire and conquered the middle East and N. Africa, Persia, and Spain. They later kept going and conquered the Turks and converted them to Islam and the Turks became the military force for the wealthy Arab leaders in Baghdad. Eventually the Seljuk Turks, and then later the Ottoman Turks became the “guardians” of Islam, and the Islamic Empire or “Ummah”, meaning “community” or “nation”. Originally it was supposed to be one unified political system and nation, ruled by the Khalif. (Sort of equivalent to the Roman Catholic Pope) Please read the article I referenced on Jihad, with quotes from the Qur’an and the Hadith collections, it shows the 4 stages that Islam went through during Muhammad’s career. see - http://www.answering-islam.org/Bailey/jihad.html

The Muslims went on to conquer other areas in Asia and spread Islam to Central Asia (Turkestan: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kirgizstan, Turkmenistan), the rest of the Persian Empire, Afghanistan and Tajikistan, India (today Pakistan and N. India are the results of Islam’s inroads into India), China (western China has over 60 Million Muslims!), Malaysia, and Indonesia.

In the Middle East, it was only after the Ottoman Empire was defeated at the end of World War I (1917) and the Khalifate was abolished (1922-1924) and the “Ummah” was split into separate countries that created more secular Muslim countries and the ability for many Muslims to separate doctrinal-Jihadistic Islam from their religious/spiritual duties. The most consistent expressions of doctrinal and original Islam today are Saudi Arabia, and the Taliban areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan for the Sunnis and Iran for the Shiites – they are all three what the west would call a “theocracy”, because they are consistent in actually applying Islamic political and social law in daily life.

So, yes, Islam teaches fighting and killing (qatl, qatal), war (harb), and jihad (struggle, effort). It is a violent religion in its original doctrines and teachings in its scriptures, the Qur’an, and the Ahadith ( plural of Hadith, “written traditions of Muhammad”). The modern Muslim in the west would object and may say that the goal was only to unify Arabia and that those verses do not apply to today. The problem with that is that there is no text in the Qur'an or Hadith that shows that the Jihad/Qatal/harb is supposed to stop.

But Muslims themselves are not all terrorists and many Muslims are peaceful and hospitable people. They can be very friendly and respectful and family oriented; and learning their culture and hospitality and talking to them about spiritual things is always interesting and fun and challenging. They are human beings, created in the image of God, in need of the Savior Jesus Christ. They are sinners, and we are sinners. We are not better than them. Those of us whom God has saved by His grace want to share the gospel with them. Many Muslims don’t know their own religion. Most Muslims see Jihad as self-defense or equivalent to the Christian view of a “just war”. If a western country attacks a Muslim country or if the Hindus in India attack the Muslim areas, or the Atheists/communist Russian try to take Afghanistan, the whole Muslim communities are galvanized to do Jihad, struggling and fighting for Islam.

Today, the Muslim world is going through a real crisis of identity and struggle within itself to see if they are going to follow Muhammad’s Islam or a more moderate expression of Islam that it seems most Muslims would desire. The Jihadists movements of terrorism, such as Al Qaideh, are movements of consistently applying all of the texts of Islam globally with the desire to re-establish the Khalifate. (In Sunni Islam, succession to Muhammad as one leader over all the Muslim world.) The problem is that the Shiites do not believe in the Khalifate, they have what they call the Imamate ( Two schools of Shiites: 12 Imams, or 7 Imams = descendants of the family of Muhammad. So there is great disunity in the Muslim world over these issues.


Is the understanding among most Muslims that Islam's goal is to be a theocracy in all countries that they occupy?

Hard to know what most Muslims understand deep down vs. what they are willing to express in public in western countries. The Muslim world was humiliated by the defeat of the Ottoman Empire and the establish of the state of Israel in 1948, and the colonial powers drawing borders and training secular leaders in the last almost 100 years. This humiliation and defeat became the seed bed of thinkers like Saeed Qutb in Egypt, who inspired Usama Ben Laden and Ayman Al Zawahiri.

Most Muslims probably did not think deeply about this issue since the breakup of the Ottoman Empire (1922-1924) until recently. But yes, a political state of Islam (a "theocracy") was the original intention and goal and it is obvious from reading the Muslim sources and Islamic history. The disunity with the Shiites and the European self-defense stopped this in history. The recent history of the Jihadists movements is actually forcing more and more Muslims to think about this issue more and more.

If so, was this Muhammad's goal? Yes, read his words in the article I gave you. See again Surah 8:39; 9:29.

As of late, I've had an increasing interest in Islam. I think it started when I attended a presentation at St. Tikhon's Seminary by an Orthodox priest from Indonesia, who had been raised in the Muslim faith. He knew the Quran quite well and quoted from it extensively. He spoke of the harsh treatment Christians receive (whether Orthodox or Protestant) in that country, since the majority religion is Islam.

Very interesting! Yes, Christians are treated harshly and are second class citizens in Muslim countries. They are called “dhimmis”. It means the “protected peoples” of the “people of the book” ( Christians and Jews). They must pay the "jaziye" ( a tax on them to show their submission to the Islamic state. Dhimmis cannot share their faith with Muslims or build new churches.

So I thought I'd make some inquiries from you since it seems you have a fairly good grasp (and interest) of the subject.

Darlene, Thanks for your questions and gracious compliments!
Ken

27 comments:

Carrie said...

Thanks Ken, this was very helpful!

akhter said...

http://media-islam.or.id/2008/09/25/comparison-study-of-judaism-christianity-and-islam-religion/

Ken said...

Akhtar,
Salam! - peace to you!
Thank you for stopping by and posting a link to your Islamic viewpoint.

I read your article all the way through; will you read these other 2 articles all the way through?

I hope you will read all 3 of the articles all the way through and think deeply about what is said, and get the Injeel in your language and read it. Also, please understand that nothing is meant to be insulting or attacking any Muslims as people.

1. I would like you to consider how Christians understand and interpret the question of Isa Al Masih ( Jesus the Messiah) as "the Son of God"

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/09/witnessing-to-muslims-answering-son-of.html

The Qur'an speaks of someone as "the son of the Road" ( a traveler) and in Egypt they say, "the son of the Nile" and the Qur'an speaks of "the mother of the book" and "the mother of villages". Do these phrases mean that rivers, villages and books and roads can get married and have sex and produce children?

Please read this article which explains what the Bible is really saying by "the Son of God".

2. Next, look at this one on the substitution that Allah gave for Abraham's son. Allah gave an innocent substitute, a sinless animal. (ram, sheep, goats)

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/01/so-why-did-allah-substitute-innocent.html

Isa Al Masih gives peace:
Isa said:
"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid." John 14:27

Ken said...

Thanks Carrie,
I hope all these articles on Islam are helpful.

akhter said...

Yes i did read your article or shall we say a DIY manual to missionaries on how to convince the Muslims, i must say i have heard and read better!
http://www.islamfortoday.com/murad03.htm

http://islamicweb.com/begin/trinity.htm

Rhology said...

An interesting debate: Is Islam a religion of peace?

Burk Braun said...

Indeed, Islam is doctrinally opposed to polytheism, which makes it impossible to believe in trinities, god-men, saints, and the like. They worship one god, and one god only, which is a rather sound principle when one poses as a monotheist, eh?

Rhology said...

Burk,
Does it entertain you to badly misunderstand Christian theology, or are you under contract to do so?

Ken said...

DIY manual

what is DIY ?

Rhology said...

http://tinyurl.com/l5k2na


;-)

Ken said...

Only the Spirit of God working on the inside invisibly and mysteriously can convince others and give life to hearts that are dead in sin.

Mark 7:1-23

Ephesians 2:1-5; John 6:44; Acts 16:14; Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3-8

We just proclaim the truth and hopefully help clear up mis-understandings and mis-conceptions.

Ken said...

Burk and Akhtar,
Christianity and the Bible are opposed to polytheism also. There is only one God. God is one.

Mark 12:29 / Deut. 6:5
I Timothy 2:5
I Corinthians 8:4-6
John 17:3

Khoda Vahed ast. "God is One" in Farsi:
خدا واحد است

Allah Wahed (God is one, Arabic)
الله واحد

The Trinity is One God, from all eternity in three persons. Nothing physical; all Spiritual.

The second person of the Trinity, the Word of God, the eternal Son of God, Jesus Christ, became flesh and dwelt among us. ( John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8)

"God is love", (I John 4:8-10) means God is personal and God is relationship - from all eternity the Father, and the Son and the Spirit were in perfect spiritual relationship with one another.

the Father = the Loverعاشق
the Son - the beloved معشوق
The Holy Spirit = the Love between them عشق

They dwelt in perfect love and harmony and unity from all eternity past.



That is why the soul/spirit/heart of man cries out for connection an spiritual relationship with God, and only the Triune God can fill that emptiness.

As Pascal said, "we have a 'God-shaped' vacuum inside of us that only the God of love/relationship can fill.

As Augustine said, "O God, you created us for Yourself and our hearts are restless until they find their rest in You." (Confessions, 1:1)

The doctrine of the Trinity is beautiful because it affirms monotheism and shows that God is love by nature, and one cannot have love without a relationship. That Spiritual relationship was from all eternity before creation. Love requires a Lover and a beloved. They were in eternal happiness from all eternity past.

God offers that joy and beauty in relationship to you.

Your sins block you from knowing God - Isaiah 59:1-2

You are in bondage to sin. John 8:34

You are suppressing the knowledge of the Triune God that is in your heart and conscience tells you there is a creator God and judge. Romans 1:18-21; 2:14-16

Burk - you even used the truth of God earlier from Matthew 7:1-7 to make a point. That is God's truth.

Repent of your sin and trust in Christ to save you from your sin.
Matthew 11:28-30

Pilgrimsarbour said...

Very good, Ken. Thanks for this and I'm looking forward to reading more discussions with Darlene on this very important subject.

DIY = Do It Yourself

Ree said...

This two part article by Pastor Peter Leithart is definitely worth reading. Mirror of Christendom, Part I and Mirror of Christendom, Part II

Paul Hoffer said...

Hi Ken, I understand your arguments about whether adherents to Islam worship a different God than Christians, but I must beg to differ with you. Muslims expressly claim that they worship the God of Abraham and Moses. Using your criteria, the Jews who had no concept of a Trinity and expressly denied the divinity of Christ do not worship the same God as we do. However, that is ludicrous to make such a claim.

Since Muslims claim that they worship the same God, it would be more fair to say that their understanding of God is seriously flawed and that they are worshipping God in seriously flawed manner. Thus, as St. Paul says in the first chapter of Romans, "Ever since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what He has made. As a result they have no excuse[.]" (Rom. 1:20) Likewise, in his proclamation of the Gospel on Mars hill in Athens, Paul points out that the "Unknown God" which the Athenians did worship was in fact God Almighty. (Acts 17:23) Note how Saint Paul explains that the manner in which they worshipped God was in error, not that the God they worshipped was some other god.

And before you criticize how I understand the Scriptures, I would submit that my understanding is in accord with Our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, who said to the Samaritan woman, "You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews." (Jn. 4:22) Applying this teaching, I am merely substituting Muslim for Samaritan because as you so rightfully point out Muslims do worship a God they truly do not understand or comprehend. Hence, the Catholic Church teaching that that Muslims worship the same God is accurate. If you actually read Nostra Aetate, you would also find that there is nothing in Catholic doctrine that suggests that Muslims worship God correctly or that their understanding of God is in anyway correct.

God bless!

Ken said...

Hi Paul,
Thanks for some interaction on this issue!

You wrote:
Muslims expressly claim that they worship the God of Abraham and Moses.

Yes, they do claim this; but a claim doesn't mean that it is true. As I wrote, the concept of the only Creator Sovereign God, they have; they have the same concept or referrent; but in their minds He is not Triune, so the worship is empty and vain (Matthew 15:9; Mark 7:1-14)

Yes, they do have monotheism, the Absolute Sovereignty of Allah, He is eternal and invisible and they are vehemently against idolatry and paganism and polytheism and pantheism and atheism. They believe in Adam and Eve, Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Ismail, Moses, David, Solomon; yes. These are positive things and there is some truths in Islam. They believe God can communicate and has given us revelation (books) and angels deliver messages. Most of the 99 names of Allah are good and beautiful and share many of the same attributes of the Tri-une God.


Using your criteria, the Jews who had no concept of a Trinity and expressly denied the divinity of Christ do not worship the same God as we do.

"had" and "denied" are key words there in your sentence. Then the verb changes in your sentence to present tense.

Rejection of the new revelation means they are accountable now and cannot go back to the OT revelation and say "we didn't know"; or "we don't know".

John 3:18-21 -
"light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light" "he who has not believed in the only Son of God is condemned already.

Once Christ came into the world, new revelation was given. Christ revealed God the Father. John 1:18 - He has revealed/explained/exegeted Him. "If you seen Me, Jesus said, "you have seen the Father". John 14:9

Many of the Jewish people did receive Christ, like Peter - as the eternal Son of the Living God and Jesus blessed Peter. Matthew 16:16-18

But the Jewish people that don't accept the Messiah don't have the Father either.

When Jesus started revealing Himself to the Jews, those that rejected Him were condemned as not knowing, not loving, not having, and not honoring the Father either. Because they have rejected their own Messiah, they have rejected Yahweh Himself.

He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father. See John 5:23

He who does not love the Son, does not love the Father. See John 5:42-43

He who does not know the Son, does not know the Father. See John 8:18-19


However, that is ludicrous to make such a claim.

Why? Jesus said it Himself above. That is what Jesus rebuked the Jewish people for, the ones who did not receive Him. "He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him; but as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God . . ." John 1:11-12

Ken said...

Continued with Paul Hoffer:

Since Muslims claim that they worship the same God, it would be more fair to say that their understanding of God is seriously flawed and that they are worshiping God in seriously flawed manner.

This is also true; the concept is so flawed that the worship doesn't reach the true God; (Matthew 15:1-10) their worship is empty and vain, Jesus said. they are "trying", "claiming", "thinking", "claiming"; but even the Scriptures say "no one seeks for God" (see Romans 3:9-23) No one is righteous, no not one.

Thus, as St. Paul says in the first chapter of Romans, "Ever since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what He has made. As a result they have no excuse[.]" (Rom. 1:20)

Yes, they are without excuse- but verses 18-19 connects verse 20 and says these are the people who "push down"/suppress the truth/ the knowledge of the one creator God in their hearts by unrighteousness.

18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."

The truly "God-fearers", like Cornelius in Acts 10-11 are Muslims who come to Christ when they hear the gospel (maybe after years of struggle; maybe after only a few weeks; maybe immediately. That is God's decision. John 3:8
The Spirit blows where He wants to.

Burk Braun said...

" doesn't reach the true God " ?

How do you know your communications do reach the true god? Do you hear back? I don't think so. Indeed, Muslims hear back exactly as often as you do.

Ken said...

On Acts 17:22-25
They were religious, superstitious and set up an altar to "the god who is unknown", in case there is one they forgot or didn't know about.

They did not know the true God; so Paul is saying I am going to tell you who the true God is, the really only God, the one you don't know nor know about.

He is not denying that they do some kind of worship. Muslims are worshiping an image in their mind of a monotheistic God who is one and created all things; that is good and a start, but not enough.

"What you worship in ignorance, I now proclaim to you" They had no knowledge or content of who this God was. Paul fills in that knowledge.

He quoted their poets are related to things in their culture and poetry/culture that would help him explain who the true God is.

We do this also. There is some good truth in Islam. Monotheism, Allah's attributes; Most of the 99 names of Allah are Biblical, in my opinion.

They believe in the virgin birth of Christ, but have a flawed understanding of it. They even believe Jesus is Al Massih, the Messiah. Great!

More on this later, maybe tomorrow. It is late and I have other work to do tomorrow, but I hope to try and address this some more.

Ken said...

Burk wrote:
How do you know your communications do reach the true god? Do you hear back? I don't think so. Indeed, Muslims hear back exactly as often as you do.

Because God has made promises in the Bible. There are many, but here are a few.
I John 5:13-14
Philippians 4:6-9
John chapter 14
Galatians 4:6

Romans 8:14-16
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!"

16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

ElderChild said...

Much greater still is to have a relationship with Our Father, for there are multitudes who know G-D yet few who commune as The Messiah did, and does with Our Father.......

Father Help! and HE does.......

Burk Braun said...

Hi, Ken-

Sorry, that simply doesn't wash. The muslim's magic book would say that same.

Rhology said...

Burk,

He answered your question. Now you're asking a different one, and so I'll ask you one in return, the same kind of question.

How do you know your cognitive faculties do reliably produce true beliefs?

Burk Braun said...

Hi, Rhology-

Not at all. Ken keeps spouting quotes as though his scripture is somehow better than the other guy's scripture, when it simply isn't. Indeed, Muhammed easily outpaces Jesus as a recipient of messages from God, since he got many more of them. Jesus didn't claim to be god or god's son or any way divine in his own lifetime or in his own words, only a teacher in the Jewish tradition. He didn't even claim to say anthing that god put in his mouth, as far as reliable sources go. Not that that really makes any difference to a critical observer!

The whole point of science and skepticism and rationalism is to recognize that true beliefs are very difficult to come by. We fool ourselves all the time. Thus the scientific method, critical reading/historiography, and skeptical inquiry ... standards of rational thought.

What I can say is that true beliefs are far more likely to come from empirical searches in the real world of today than from ancient books of miscellanea written by schizoid people with all sorts of agendas from the artistic to the governmental, possessing strictly the minimal knowledge of their day when it comes to truth claims.

Ever wonder why miracles are so rare today, and so common in ancient times? You should. Haiti could use one, but does it come?

Rhology said...

when it simply isn't

Oh, you're from Unsupported Assertion Land, where everythg you say becomes fact and should be taken over the Word of God. Gotcha, I wish you'd told me.
No, prove it.


Muhammed easily outpaces Jesus as a recipient of messages from God, since he got many more of them.

1) Prove quantity supercedes another standard.
2) The OT is a lot longer than the Qur'an, and Jesus received the entire OT. Just like everyone else.


Jesus didn't claim to be god or god's son

You are willfully ignorant, then. Prove it. Deal with the stock prooftexts for Jesus' divinity.


The whole point of science and skepticism and rationalism is to recognize that true beliefs are very difficult to come by. We fool ourselves all the time.

1) prove you're not fooling yourself now.
2) Prove that one shouldn't be skeptical of the very standards for rationality you've been telling us.
If you can't do these things, then we have every right to dismiss the standards you're laying before us.


What I can say...when it comes to truth claims.

Prove it.


Ever wonder why miracles are so rare today, and so common in ancient times? You should. Haiti could use one, but does it come?

1) Common? How many miracles occurred back then compared to how many non-miraculous events that took place in the entire world at those times? At most, dozens of miracles, quadrillions and quintillions of individual events.
2) Give me a good reason to think that God didn't have a good reason to do those miracles then and does now.
3) Can you prove miracles are NOT occurring today? Or is this just another unsupported assertion? YOU made the negative statement; YOU prove it.
4) Ever wonder why events that give evidence for evolution are so rare today and so common in ancient times?

Move on; your trolling has enmeshed you in numerous questions you can't answer. I know you can't b/c I've asked them of you before and you've done nothing but beg the same questions, mercilessly, over and over.


Peace,
Rhology

Burk Braun said...

Rhology-

"Word of god"? Whose word of god? What exactly makes you think that your word of god is better than the muslim word of god? As the new testament supposedly superseded the old, so did the Koran supersede both of those. That is as good "proof" as anything else, since god has never reliably spoken other than to the insane.

"2) Give me a good reason to think that God didn't have a good reason to do those miracles then and does now.
3) Can you prove miracles are NOT occurring today? Or is this just another unsupported assertion? YOU made the negative statement; YOU prove it. "


Firstly, you don't know anything about god, and nor do I, since it is imaginary. So it is quite obvious that neither of us would be able to make such a case, for or against. Miracles arose purely through the tall-tale telling chops of story tellers, and their many credulous listeners and readers, as they continue to do today.

How much credence do you put in the miracles involved in Catholic canonization? Not much, I presume. Nor should you. Despite all the virgins on toast, crying statues, etc., no miracles have been demonstrated in any reliable way in the modern world, for the simple reason that they don't happen.

Any evidence otherwise would net a nobel prize-the incentive to demonstrate this kind of thing, necessarily in contradistinction to well-known physical laws like the conservation of mass/energy, would be earth-shattering to current science. Yet does it happen? No. That is quite proof enough.

Rhology said...

B/c the Bible came from God and the Qur'an didn't. If you think you have a defeater for the biblical worldview, bring it. I've seen enough contradictions within the Qur'an to distrust it, besides.

Ditto with the Romanist worldview - it has internal contradictions, not least of which is that it claims to follow the Bible but doesn't.

Anyway, no answer to any of my questions. Didn't think you'd un-troll and actually get to the heart of the matter. Nice talking to you.