Saturday, December 12, 2009

Trip Details: Madrid Pilgrimage (Updated)


I'm planning a short trip to Madrid on Saturday. I'm about 65% sure I'm going. It should be very interesting.

Update: I'm headed out the door for my pilgrimage... It should knock plenty of years off my stay in purgatory by visiting the Madrid Oracle...

Update:
So, yes I did go to see Roman Catholic apologist Patrick Madrid. I only had a small window of opportunity to hear him speak. I chose the 2:15- 4:00 P.M. session, "Where is That in the Bible?"

The church was easy enough to locate, though they had no sign as to the event. They didn't even let you know which door to go in. The lecture was held in what appeared to be the basement hall of the church, and it was a nondescript side door that one entered by. We entered to an almost empty room about 10 minutes before the start, leaving one with the "Is this the place?" quizzical lost look.... nothing like being not only the only Protestants, but the only people present. The room was very cold. My wife ended up with her gloves on about 20 minutes in. I would guess there were around fifty people there once everyone showed up. Many (if not most) were 20-40, with a toddler or two running around. I appeared to be the only one with a Bible.

The lecture turned out to not be "Where is That in the Bible." Instead, the lecture was "Is everything up for grabs? A Catholic critique of moral relativism." They must've decided to chang the schedule for some reason. This was quite a disappointment for me, as I've read Patrick's book "Where is that in the Bible", and obviously, the subject matter of the regularly scheduled lecture interested me me more. I thought of simply leaving to find a nice restaurant.

But I stuck it out. In terms of speaking ability, Madrid (from where I was sitting) appeared not to use notes, spoke clearly, without any "um's...". In other words, in terms of speaking ability, he has mastered his craft.

As to the lecture itself, he began with a story that I've heard him tell before. He told the story that had nothing really to do with the subject. He told the story of the couple who came to see him debate in which the wife was Protestant and the husband Catholic. The debate was the straw that turned the wife to Romanism. If I recall from other broadcasts, it was his debate with Dr. White on sola scriptura. Here's a clip from today's lecture of this story. Ah yes, these are the stories to rally the troops by! I would love to get a hold of that couple and sit down and re-listen to the debate. Dr. White went through it again last year as well, and Madrid did not do as well as he claims. In fact, he lost that debate.

As to the meat of the lecture, there wasn't a lot I disagreed with Madrid on. In fact, other than a few isolated points, one would be hard pressed to even identify the lecture as Roman Catholic. In fact, one of the main sources that appears to have inspired Madrid's lecture was a Protestant book on relativism which he quoted.

My wife asked me if I was going to introduce myself to Madrid. I decided not to. Had the lecture been on "Where's That in the Bible" and I had a chance to get a question in, then perhaps I would've said hello afterward. I hold no animosity toward Mr. Madrid personally. I am though, committed to the Gospel, and will continue to critique his arguments as I come across them.

8 comments:

L P said...

I'm headed out the door for my pilgrimage... It should knock plenty of years off my stay in purgatory by visiting the Madrid Oracle...

James, we are not RCs - we do not go to Purgatory.

Oops, I am confused - we are separated brethren, I do not know now where we go, - probably in limbo at the moment.

LPC

Carrie said...

probably in limbo at the moment

I think limbo is gone now.

L P said...

Carrie,

Things have changed again?

How come I did not get a memo?

LPC

James Swan said...

I think limbo is gone now

If I recall correctly, I think I heard Tim Staples say that the status of limbo is not that it doesn't exist, but rather it is something Roman Catholics can believe in or not. That is, limbo is in limbo.

I may have it wrong though.

bkaycee said...

Interesting that an infallible magesterium has not weighed in on limbo.

Whats the purpose of an infallible magesterium again?

Churchmouse said...

Interesting that an infallible magesterium has not weighed in on limbo.

Whats the purpose of an infallible magesterium again?


The purpose of an infallible magisterium is to get together, agree on something (or at least the greater number agrees), and, regardless of what anyone says, this is the way that the Holy Spirit has moved the church, infallibly of course. Those "magisterial" guys who aren't in accord with the others, well, they are just plain fallible, regardless of what anyone says :-) They'z gots ta get wit the program.

Carrie said...

Things have changed again?

James' answer may be more correct, it's always difficult to navigate the nuances.

Here's what an old Cat News story said:

"An international group of Vatican-appointed theologians is about to recommend that the Catholic Church close the doors of limbo forever.

Many Catholics grew up thinking limbo -- the place where babies who have died without baptism spend eternity in a state of "natural happiness" but not in the presence of God -- was part of Catholic tradition.

Instead, it was a hypothesis -- a theory held out as a possible way to balance the Christian belief in the necessity of baptism with belief in God's mercy.

Like hypotheses in any branch of science, a theological hypothesis can be proven wrong or be set aside when it is clear it does not help explain Catholic faith….

…Redemptorist Father Tony Kelly, an Australian member of the commission, told Catholic News Service "the limbo hypothesis was the common teaching of the church until the 1950s. In the past 50 years, it was just quietly dropped.

"We all smiled a bit when we were presented with this question, but then we saw how many important questions it opened," including questions about the power of God's love, the existence of original sin and the need for baptism, he said.

"Pastorally and catechetically, the matter had been solved" with an affirmation that somehow God in his great love and mercy would ensure unbaptized babies enjoyed eternal life with him in heaven, "but we had to backtrack and do the theology," Father Kelly said."

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0506867.htm


How come I did not get a memo?

Your name was taken off the memo list when you defected.

James Swan said...

Carrie,

I'm going by memory of what I recall Tim Staples saying a while back on CA live. I didn't save the clip.

Here's a recent CA post:

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=405433&highlight=limbo

"I answered, "No. It still permits us to believe in Limbo. I believe that Limbo is theologically necessary, and also that Limbo is mentioned in Scripture."

I checked. I was right. We are still allowed to believe in Limbo."