Saturday, September 27, 2008

From one of the foremost commentators on the canon law in the 15th Century....

" matters of faith even the statement of one single private person can take precedence over statements by the Pope, whenever he (the private person) is guided by better reasons and authoritative grounds in the Old and New Testaments than the Pope is." (Nicholas de Tudeschis (Panormitanus), d. 1445).

Luther: Hearken, ye papists! Paul curses an angel from heaven if he teaches differently from the Scriptures, and I am not to have the power to despise a man if he teaches differently! Why do ye not also condemn that chapter of Panormitanus, Significasti, de Electione, which I have cited, in which he says that we are to believe a layman, if he presents plain Scripture or clear reason, rather than a pope or a council; and this opinion is shared by almost all the jurists, especially the ablest and most learned among them.


bkaycee said...

It's time for Rome to bring out the dead horse argument for Panormitanus that says "he was not giving an ex cathedra statement but merely his opinion as a private theologian."

Scott said...

The comment section is not much of a place for a full response, but let me respond to this piece, which is a quote from Luther:

St Paul, in 1 Corinthians 3:13, says of the fire of the last day that it will prove the good works, and by it some shall be saved because they keep the faith, though their work may suffer loss. Of this fire also they make purgatory, according to their custom of twisting the Scriptures and making of them what they will.

This is a misrepresentation of the passage. The passage speaks of those who are already saved - and their works will be revealed and/or tried by fire. Those whose works remain shall receive a reward, but those whose works are burned up shall suffer loss, and the next part of the sentence is critical - "but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."

Context is important here and since Luther overlooks the context, and it is immediate context being the next two verses, he misses the obvious link to Purgatory - since this testing happens when one is judged (after death) but before they receive their reward and/or salvation - but ALL who undergo this testing ARE SAVED.

Consider the verse again, and with its context:
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: BUT HE HIMSELF SHALL BE SAVED; yet so as by fire.
(KJV emphasis added)

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James Swan said...

This is a misrepresentation of the passage.

Scott, my apologies. Luther did not assign verse 13, he only states 1 Cor. 3, citing the chapter generally. The text is from the Old Philalephia edition of Luther's Works vol. 3. I took the text from an on-line version, without checking it against the original, which I just did.

In the text, Luther is working though a brief response to 49 articles written against him. I've noticed the later responses are much more sparse (he seemed to be running out of gas, so to speak).

I don't think its fair to say Luther "overlooked the context", when he was only speaking generally of 1 Cor. 3, and I think you would agree Roman Catholics do refer to it as a Purgatory prooftext. That really is Luther's point.

I'm sorry I haven't gotten to your blog entries yet, but then again, you took quite a while to write to me.

Also, your comment on Purgatory appears to be placed under the wrong blog entry on this blog.

James Swan said...

Interesting also Scott how "works" are judged in 1 cor 3, not sins and their punishment.I thought Rome teaches Purgatory is a place to be purifed from the temporal punishments of sin.

Nor does the text say that a person is punished, or a person is going through the fire, but rather their works.

I think Luther was right when he said Rome takes 1 cor. 3 to teach Purgatory, simply because "fire" is mentioned.

Paul Hoffer said...

Mr. Swan, I must respectfully disagree with your comment,
"I think Luther was right when he said Rome takes 1 cor. 3 to teach Purgatory, simply because "fire" is mentioned."

St. Paul was a Pharisee, the son of the Pharisees. (Acts. 23:6) Scripture tells us that St. Paul was educated strictly in the ways of Hebraic Law at the feet of the Rabban Gamaliel, one of the greatest Pharisaic teachers of all time. (Acts 22:5) Thus, let us see what Gamaliel would have taught young St. Paul learning at his feet.

In the Babylonian Talmud, translated by Michael L. Rodkinson (1918), one reads at Tractate Rosh Hashana Chapter 1, pp. 26-27:

We have learned in a Boraitha: The school of Shammai said: There are three divisions of mankind at the Resurrection: the wholly righteous, the utterly wicked, and the average class. The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the utterly wicked are at once inscribed, and destined for Gehenna, as we read [Dan. 12:2]: "And many of them that sleep in the dust shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." The third class, the men between the former two, descend to Gehenna, but they weep and come up again, in accordance with the passage [Zech. 13: 9]: "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and I will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; and they shall call on My name, and I will answer them." Concerning this last class of men Hannah says [I Sam. 2: 6]: "The Lord causeth to die and maketh alive, He bringeth down to the grave and bringeth up again." The school of Hillel says: The Merciful One inclines (the scale of justice) to the side of mercy, and of this third class of men David says [Psalms, 114:1]: "It is lovely to me that the Lord heareth my voice"; in fact, David applies to them the Psalm mentioned down to the words, "Thou hast delivered my soul from death" [ibid. 8].

There other Pharisaic texts I could cite to you but there is not adequate space in a comm box to do that, but is plain that the Pharisees taught that there was a purgatorial state. St. Paul would have been aware of that fact by virtue of his education. He uses the same allusion in Zechariah in 1 Cor. 3 and teaches the same thing.

God bless!