Tuesday, April 08, 2008

My friend TurretinFan did some great work a few months ago confirming my suspicion that an oft-used Luther quote by Roman Catholic apologists was the result of Cochlaeus. Now TurretinFan did some work on the saying often attributed to Luther, that justification is like snow which covers dung.

Snow-Covered Dung-Heap - Luther / Langland / Chrysostom?

While the entry is not definitive, it certainly is interesting. In a way, I feel bad for TurretinFan that he can't copyright his efforts with this quote. I'm sure others will seize it, as if they actually found the same tidbits of information.

12 comments:

Turretinfan said...

Thanks for the link!

For what it's worth, I do have a copyright notice up on my blog, not that anyone really respects them these days.

-Turretinfan

beowulf2k8 said...

I think you miss the point. Those earlier allusions to a snow covered dung pile refer to hypocrisy. If Luther picked up the phrase and applied it to justification as Turretinfan is willing to allow he did, then Luther essentially equates hypocrisy with justification. That makes him the ultimate stinky dung hill, and I dare say with all I know about Luther, he's not even covered with snow.

David Waltz said...

In the thread that James linked to, TF wrote:

>>What's particularly interesting about the quotation is that it is presented on the page I've linked to, just above a quotation from Luther - which might lead the careless reader, flipping open to that page, to think it was Luther's words.>>

Me: Perhaps someone should mention TF’s thread to James White, for in his book, The God Who Justifies, he devotes an entire chapter to “Luther’s Dunghill” (ch. 8). Here is a snippet:

“Luther once attempted to demonstrate the difference between justification and sanctification. He likened our sinful state to a dunghill, ugly and offensive, it has nothing in and of itself that would make it pleasing to anyone; let alone God. This is what we are like in our sin…Justification, he went on, is like that first snowfall approaching winter, the one that covers everything in a blanket of pure white. (Pages 119, 120.)


Grace and peace,

David

James Swan said...

Perhaps someone should mention TV's thread to James White, for in his book, The God Who Justifies, he devotes an entire chapter to “Luther’s Dunghill” Grace and peace, David

I have never argued that Roman Catholics are the only ones who attribute this saying to Luther. I've never even argued Luther didn't say it. I could put forth a list of very respectable Catholics and Protestants that have attributed this saying to Luther. I've argued that I have not found a reference for it.

The issue seems to me David, that you are among those Roman Catholics that stalk Dr. White. I can't think of any other reason why you would overlook the myriad of people that have cited Luther saying this- particularly since it has been said your library is extensive. I would suggest stalking Dr. White on your own blog.

James Swan said...

If Luther picked up the phrase and applied it to justification as Turretinfan is willing to allow he did, then Luther essentially equates hypocrisy with justification.

This doesn't follow. It is very possible to barrow imagery from another writer's analogy, and apply it differently.

That makes him the ultimate stinky dung hill, and I dare say with all I know about Luther, he's not even covered with snow.


Thank you for calling and sharing, and shall we take our next call please...welcome to open forum...

beowulf2k8 said...

"This doesn't follow."

My point, Swan, is that snow covered dung is an apt metaphor for hypocrisy (even as those others used it) just like Jesus' metaphor of white-washed-sepulchers outwardly beautiful but inwardly full of dead men's bones and all manner of defilement. Scripture clearly reserves the notions of covering disgusting filth with whitewash for hypocrisy, even as those other writers did. Yet, the blood of Christ is always said to wash, never to cover. Now in the Old Testament kaphar erroneously translated atonement so many times did mean "to cover" but those were animal sacrifices that could never take away sins. That's why those worthless sacrifices were merely allowed by God to provide a temporary covering. But the blood of Christ removes and washes away sin. It is not snow covering dung. It is a fuller's soap, even as Malachi says (3:2) "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:" -- Let the Reformed heretics be what they are, whitewashed tombs and snow-covered dung. But let true Christians (credo-baptist anabaptists) be washed pure by the Almighty Fuller.

James Swan said...

My point, Swan, is that snow covered dung is an apt metaphor for hypocrisy (even as those others used it) just like Jesus' metaphor of white-washed-sepulchers outwardly beautiful but inwardly full of dead men's bones and all manner of defilement.

That's fine- use it however you want to use it.

Scripture clearly reserves the notions of covering disgusting filth with whitewash for hypocrisy, even as those other writers did. Yet, the blood of Christ is always said to wash, never to cover.

Admittedly, At this point the analogy breaks down. Reformation theology never argues that a regenerated person never grows in sanctification. That is, the dung does not remain dung.

Let the Reformed heretics be what they are, whitewashed tombs and snow-covered dung. But let true Christians (credo-baptist anabaptists) be washed pure by the Almighty Fuller.

It's very obvious, you have no idea what you're talking about in regard to "the Reformed."

Carrie said...

beowulkk28,

Are the artist formerly known as EgoMakarios?

James Swan said...

beowulkk28, Are the artist formerly known as EgoMakarios?

Carrie, I thought the same thing, but could not remember the name "EgoMakarios." Of course it's probably the same person. Thanks for the reminder.

Carrie said...

beowulkk28,

Are the artist formerly known as EgoMakarios?


Wow, look at all those typos!

That should have read:

beowulf2k8,

Are you the artist formerly known as EgoMakarios?

James Swan said...

Wow, look at all those typos!

I use my old laptop often, and the keys are so close together, typos are frequent. I don't know how people "text message" with their phone with even smaller keys.

James Swan said...

I'm shutting down this thread- thank you all for your participation.