A recent thread has gotten off track and so I'd like to set this post in place to continue the discussions started there.
Many thanks to Shahiroz for the contributions and discussion thus far.
Just so you can have an idea of what we're talking about, I'll post my latest comment here. It is responding to this and this comments.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
How is Islam false if Christ is divine?
B/c the Quran states explicitly that Isa is not divine.
Surah 5:116-120 (YusufAli) -
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."
Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).
To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.
There is only one God in both Christianity and Islam…please tell me you agree with me.
The question is not monotheism (as we are both monotheists) but Unitarianism. Specifically, whether Christ is God.
Accepting a claimant by what he says is insufficient proof.
You are not an atheist. You are a Muslim, are you not? Then you must believe that Isa was at the least a prophet of Allah. Would a prophet of Allah make false blasphemous claims like "I am God"?
I do believe Christ is Divine.
May I say that you are a strange Muslim?
Forget "divine". Is Christ God?
I didn’t say Isa might have been making a false claim
Well, you said "there have been many claimants". I don't see why you said that.
But OK, when He claimed to be God, accepted worship in place of God, claimed divine attributes, what does that mean?
Muhammad affirming His own authority makes Him worthy of the same acceptance
Muhammad never claimed to be God. We evaluate what he DID claim. We must do the same with Isa to be fair-minded.
Simply put “There is one God, Muhammad and Jesus are two of his Divine Messengers.
But Isa did not allow the option to treat Him like a simple messenger of God. He claimed to be God.
I have no problem saying God in flesh, we all have God in our flesh
I repeat, and I mean no offense, but I've never met a Muslim with stranger beliefs than yours.
You said you're Shia...I am just a little confused. Oh well.
A few questions based on this:
1) Do we all have God in our flesh in the same way that Jesus did? If so, could you briefly describe how you know that?
2) Jesus accepted worship from humans along with the appellation "My Lord and my God!". Does that mean that, since I have God in my flesh, I can also legitimately accept worship from others? Will God be perfectly OK with that?
3) Is it OK for me to say "Before Abraham was, I am"?
A few things since TurretinFan is putting some time in answering David Waltz. Of course he can comment on what he wants, but here's what I'd like to know:
We only have Christ’s words through the NT as represented by the Apostles-Not his words.
But they are quoting Christ.
On what basis can you determine whether they were accurately quoting Christ or not? You clearly believe some of what the NT says about Christ. How can you tell which parts are wrong?
PLEASE TELL ME WHY MUHAMMAD IS NOT ATLEAST A CANDIDATE?
Here are 3 reasons:
1) B/c the Qur'an says in Surah 5:116-120 that Christ is NOT God.
2) B/c the Qur'an says in Surah 4 that Christ was not even crucified.
3) Re: What fruit does the ministry of the prophet bring? Does it lead God's people to holiness and purity? Matthew 7:15,20; 1 Corinthians 14:3,4 Muhammad's teachings have led people into a false idea of how they might be saved. He has taught them that their works can play a part in bringing about their salvation, while the revelation of the NT is that we are saved by unmerited grace only, through faith only.
The Quran teaches the punishment of the wicked is endless too.
This contradicts your earlier statement: just and merciful God saves everyone
Which is it? Are some wicked people punished endlessly or is everyone saved?
The Lord Jesus himself never said to worship him.
He accepted worship.
He denied the idea of tritheism of any kind
Oh! You've been doing so well! Please don't fall back into the careless and dishonorable caricatures that so many other Muslims do, calling Christianity tritheistic. Let's stay on topic!
For this concept of the “Trinity” is an esoteric concept. Nothing literal about it
What is your argument for that?
And is there a reason why you did not respond to T-Fan's Quranic citations?
Only Christ can justly judge my love for Him
True, but He has already clearly revealed the verdict and its bases:
John 8:24 - He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
We judge your BELIEFS as beliefs that do not save, based on God's revelation.
We don't need to judge your sins; the New Testament judges you a sinner already. Everyone is a sinner. We need grace from God to be saved, and that grace is given through faith in the true Jesus Christ.
Let me reiterate that I appreciate very much your hanging around and answering questions and interacting. That is hard to find on the Internet! Thanks again.