If you don't get it, don't worry- it wasn't that good.
Starting from where I left off in the combox of the previous post on icons...
What in the text indicates that Uzzah was treating the Ark "as if it had intrinsic value"?
This is what I mean by ad hoc...God clearly defined how the Ark was to be transported. The Israelites neglected to do that. Where was Uzzah venerating or doing anything to the Ark besides walking beside it and putting out his hand to steady it? More eisegesis on CrimsonCath's part.
Uzzah was, in his own way, a proto-Gnostic. You don't try to grab the divine without permission, outside of the specific channels He provides, or you will be destroyed.
Eisegesis. This reminds me of the way that RCs often try to push prohibitions of contraception onto the text on Onan.
Does that text itself explicitly say any of this? No.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
I wonder how it would even be possible to worship Him on your understanding unless He were standing in front of you
Just b/c we are prohibited from using icons in worship, you don't know how I'd worship Christ? "In spirit and in truth" is where I'd start.
even then, if you could not disregard His humanity entirely
Which has nothing to do with the question at hand. And of course I don't do so.
why do you venerate Scripture as the Word of God?
Red herring - it is far from the same thing as the way RCs and EOx venerate icons. I don't recall the last time I or anyone in my church bowed down before, lit incense before, lit candles before, and prayed to the Bible.
Without the Christological explanation, they all lack justification.
Another naked appeal to "Christological explanation"s, without an argument.
Just b/c Christ is the eikon of the Father and took on human flesh, why does it follow that it's OK to perform worshipful actions in front of statues of dead people and pray to them?
It certainly doesn't mean that there are no more signs and symbols in Christian practice,
As if that were part of the argument.
But we're talking about communication with the dead through worshipful actions directed at icons here. Let's try to stay on point.
and it certainly doesn't mean that there is no longer worship through icons.
No longer? When was there before? The OT? Where?
The saints are likewise venerated as "in Christ."
1) And are in some cases treated as more merciful and generous than Christ Himself.
2) Where is the justification to pray to them as Christ?
3) They're dead and the Bible forbids communication with the dead. Christ is not dead.
Service of God's instruments is not service of other gods (1 Chron. 29:20, Dan. 2:26, Rev. 3:9); rather, it is a form of service to the One True God.
Except that worship and serve are bound up in the same ideas and terms in the OT as the post demonstrates.
And yes, service is less than latria.
Not in the eyes of the OT. That's the point.
Given that the instruments of God (like Scripture, David, the Ark, Daniel) are venerated in the Old Testament
Not even close to in the same way as modern RCs and EOx do.
1) Where is "religious context" specified in the Old Testament? Where does the Scripture clarify what is in and what is out?
When it says you shall not bow down to them or serve them.
This is the same attitude as pro-death people and those tempted towards sexual immorality - how close can we get to the line? They never stop to consider that we should remain FAR away from any question of wrong, especially on so delicate and important an issue as the worship of the One True God when He's said over and over again that He's a jealous God!
We might ask ourselves then: "Is it OK to light a candle to the dead person? OK, how about to light a candle AND burn incense? Great, how about both of those AND praying to them inaudibly requests that I'd otherwise share with Jesus, since they can probably read my thoughts?"
Religious context is where you're rendering worshipful actions. It's not that hard unless you belabor it in order to protect your manmade traditions.
2) If you were living in the seventeenth century, would you bow to the king of your country?
Sure, fine. So what? I can guarantee that I wouldn't bow down to a picture of him AND light a candle to his image AND burn incense before it AND say an inaudible prayer to the king while doing those things in front of the image. Why? B/c those are things we do to God, not men.
If so, then why is that not going against the command of God(?)
B/c I'm not rendering worshipful actions in a religious context to him.
This "religious context" stuff is really unpersuasive.
That has nothing to do with whether the argument stands. I don't control your spirit; I can only point the way.
Bowing down to kings is often a "religious context" (think of the Caesars or the Eastern emperors who proclaimed themselves to be gods).
Precisely. And the early Christians did what exactly when commanded to do so?
It seems like some of the criticisms are against doing things to "dead" (who are, to my mind, more alive than we are) people through the mediation of an image which are perfectly OK with living people: making requests (petitionary prayer)
Until you tell me that you do ***ALL*** of the following to a living person, this is a non-point:
1) Kiss their image. While they're not there.
2) Burn incense and light candles to their image. While they're not there.
3) Set up that image in church. While they're not there.
4) Pray inaudibly to them and expect them to read your thoughts and carry the prayer to God. While they're not there. And you can't say it audibly to their ears since the dead don't hear with their physical ears.
We honor them as rational animals created by God, imago Dei, etc.
Not according to the way that you act towards them. This insults our intelligence.
What really matters is that what I MEAN by the term is actually contrary to the word of God.
Which is what Dr White was trying to tell you. *You* don't get to define the terms of what is acceptable worship to the Lord. Maybe you should think about letting Him do that.
Something overlooked by your analysis is that some of the passages are referring to FALSE GODS!!!
They are, of course, no gods at all, and yet these people condemned in the OT bow down before them and do worshipful piety to them in a religious context.
Your dead people to whom you pray thru icons are no gods at all, either, as you would agree. There's a reason why God didn't accept worship on the high places or in Samaria in OT Israel and Judah, you know. Your assertion begs the question that it's OK to bow down to dead people as long as you intend to worship God thusly.
so that both were forbidden of any creature.
I didn't say that. I am pointing out that there are certain contexts in which the distinction advanced by RCC and EOC does not hold, and religious actions is one of those categories. That's why I keep pointing out the religious worship/non-religious non-worship contexts in your counter-examples.
Nobody is doing anythg religious in that context. It's a dinner.
Now in the Old Testament no distinction in the Hebrew is drawn between these words when applied to creator or creature.
My point is clear for all to see, above.
Nor do they appear to be categorically forbidden in the context of religious practices.
Then give me JUST ONE example where somebody other than God received actions of worshipful piety in the Bible and your case is much-bolstered.
Mike Burgess said:
I've made multiple comments on this topic already.
1) God says BOTH - that the dead are not destroyed but merely appear to us to be asleep.
2) Yet there is obviously a changed relationship. You agree since you don't do ALL OF THE FOLLOWING to a living person
- Kiss their image. While they're not there.
- Burn incense and light candles to their image. While they're not there.
- Set up that image in church. While they're not there.
- Pray inaudibly to them and expect them to read your thoughts and carry the prayer to God. While they're not there. And you can't say it audibly to their ears since the dead don't hear with their physical ears.
I'd probably have to know what you're looking for in each of those passages, though.
Col 3 - who is dead at the beginning of the chapter?
This refers to the spiritually dead who are raised by regeneration.
What does St. Paul say idolatry is in v. 5?
I assume you mean "why does...?".
B/c idolatry is forbidden and sinful.
What does that contextually tell us about "motive" and its relevance?
You seem quite devoted to (at least implicitly) the regulative principle of worship.
Not at all, I'm a Southern Babdist.
But I decry that which affirms what God has prohibited.
What about anything short of what He commanded in the OT?
Since rendering worshipful piety to pictures of dead people and talking to them doesn't fall under this category, I fail to see how this is relevant.
If you really want to know, feel free to email me.
Daniel Clendenin's Eastern Orthodoxy A Western Perspective
I read that one.
I agree with the comments about "religious context" being arbitrarily defined.
Yes, of course!
Doing ALL OF THE FOLLOWING to an image of a dead person is just CLEARLY non-religious.
1) Ascribing non-human inabilities to these dead people (ie, hearing you when you pray silently)
2) Falling down before them
3) Lighting candles to them
4) burning incense to them
5) addressing THEM in prayer
The insults to readers' intelligence continue.
If it is permissible to bow down before someone outside of a "religious context", is it not also permissible to murder, commit adultery, steal or give false testimony - so long as these are only done outside of a "religious context"? Clearly not
The question at hand is whether it's OK to do to dead people what you do to God - worshipful actions.
This would only be analogous if you wanted to see if I'd argue whether it's OK to murder God, commit adultery away from God, steal from God, etc...
Rhology asserts that this verse "makes it clear that we are to bow down to no one other than God" - in otherwords, we shouldn't bow down to anyone. However, this is false. What the passage actually states is that we shouldn't bow down to "them"
Right, to the false gods. Who are not gods at all. Neither are dead people gods.