Dr. White's recent debate on Marian Dogmas with Peter Williams

with link to an older debate with Gerry Matatics on same issue.

https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2017/07/28/debates-on-the-marian-dogmas/

The heos hou / ἕως οὗ construction in the New Testament proves the RC Perpetual Virginity of Mary dogma wrong

Who is My Mother? by Eric Svendsen

I answered the very persistent and redundant "Guy Fawkes" / Jim, who lives in Portugal and apparently has lots of time to keep repeating himself, after being refuted many times, in a combox: (with additional comments)

Regarding Matthew 1:18 - "before they came together"
and
Matthew 1:25 - Joseph "kept her a virgin until" (heos hou / ἕως οὗ ) "she gave birth to a son"

 "but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."


"And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife, 25  but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus."  Matthew 1:24-25

24 ἐγερθεὶς δὲ  Ἰωσὴφ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕπνου ἐποίησεν ὡς προσέταξεν αὐτῷ ὁ ἄγγελος κυρίουκαὶ παρέλαβεν τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ· 
25 καὶ οὐκ ἐγίνωσκεν αὐτὴν  ἕως οὗ  
ἔτεκεν υἱόν· καὶ ἐκάλεσεν τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦν.  (I don't know why the Greek font gets smaller after the embolding of ἕως οὗ )

Note:  For those who don't know Greek, the mark above the letter that is like a backwards apostrophe is a breathing mark, "he" or "h" sound. (above the ε in the first word, and above the υ in the second word.)

Guy Fawkes / Jim,
I just don't have much time to keep repeating this stuff; you seem to have too much time on your hands.  You have not done research on the differences between "heos" / 'εως by itself, "heos hou" / 'εως 'ου,  and the other prepositional phrases (heos hotou / 'εως 'οτου ; and heos an / 'εως αν, and ἄχρι οὗ / axri hou - see 1 Cor. 15:25) and syntactical constructions - the Greek NT has many different ones, and all the examples that Roman Catholics bring to mean "until, but continuing on after that also" are NOT the heos hou / 'εως 'ου construction .  They are other constructions.

Guy Fawkes/Jim wrote: 
The passages from Matthew you mention are based on the words "before/until". 
It is important to stress Jesus had no human father so the word "before" says that and nothing more.

"before they came together" is in the context of marriage - so that means "having sexual intercourse" in marriage.  " [ see context: (verse 18) - "betrothed" with intention of getting married; "Joseph, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife" (verse 20); "Joseph did as the angel commanded him, and took her as his wife" (verse 24), "but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a son . . . " (verse 25)]

Guy Fawkes / Jim wrote:
"Until" does not need to mean a change took place after a particular event.

But it does in this context.  As Eric Svendsen has definitively demonstrated,

"This construction [of heos hou / 'εως 'ου] is used in Matthew 1:25 and so is of special interest here.  It occurs only seventeen times in the NT, and all are temporal.  Two of these have the meaning "while" (Matthew 14:22; 26:36), whereas the other 15 occurrences are instances in which the action of the main clause is limited by the action of subordinate clause and require the meaning, "until a specific time, (but not after)".

(Svendsen, Who is My Mother?  page 52)

On page 251 he lists all the occurrances in the NT of the heos hou / 'εως 'ου construction with the English verses typed out.  It is a lot to type out, but with the verse thingy that James put in here, I can type the verse references and then you can hover over them to see:

Matthew 1:25

Matthew 13:33

Matthew 14:22 (while)

Matthew 17:9

Matthew 18:34

Matthew 26:36 (while)

Luke 13:21

Luke 15:8

Luke 22:18

Luke 24:49

John 13:38

Acts 21:26

Acts 23:12

Acts 23:14

Acts 23:21

Acts 25:21

2 Peter 1:19


You will have to go to http://biblewebapp.com/study/

or some other place to see the Greek constructions.

Svendsen also goes through all the LXX constructions; but this is enough to prove you wrong.

Debate on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary: James White vs. Gerry Matatics

Debate on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

Jason Engwer's Review of Tim Staples' book on Mary

Jason Engwer's Review of Tim Staples' book on Mary

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2014/11/tim-staples-book-about-mary.html

Yes indeed.

A more honest way of viewing Roman Catholic Marian Prayers

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2014/11/marian-prayers.html

Written by a High Continuing Anglican, assessing Roman Catholic prayers to Mary.

Lydia McGrew said...

A couple of illustrations. Here are a couple of very ancient prayers to the Virgin Mary:

We fly to thy patronage,
O holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions in our necessities,
but deliver us always from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin. Amen.
3rd Century; Oldest Known Prayer to Mary

Loving Mother of the Redeemer,
Gate of heaven, star of the sea,
Assist your people
who have fallen yet strive to rise again,
To the wonderment of nature you bore your Creator,
yet remained a virgin after as before,
You who received Gabriel's joyful greeting,
have pity on us, poor sinners.
Ancient Liturgy of the Hours Prayer\

Many, many more examples could be found. One would _never_ speak of asking for the prayers of a friend on earth, however godly, in those terms.

Imagine that Jones is a very godly man and that Smith is his less godly Christian friend. Smith has some problems in his life. One would never say to Smith, "Fly to Jones for refuge and ask him to deliver you from all dangers" meaning by that, "Ask Jones to pray for you." It wouldn't matter how great a person Jones was, how great a Christian, how much the passage in James could be presumed to apply to Jones. To talk about Jones in those terms would be to treat him as a superbeing or a magician, not just an especially godly man.

And all the more so if you were telling the person to do this by mental prayer, which God would convey to Jones in the form of some sort of supernaturally aided ESP.

If one asserts that the saints' knowledge of our prayers is made possible by divine miracle rather than being due to a natural power, but if all liturgical practice encourages people to *take it as a given* that they can speak from anywhere on earth to Mary or the other saints and be heard, then the term "miracle" is irrelevant to the impression given. This is a "miracle" that is always done by God and can be taken for granted in practice to be in force--they will hear your prayers. The effect of all of this is, unfortunately, very much what I felt bound to assert in the main post. I speak here as someone who once was more sympathetic to prayers for the saints.

IMO it would be better for Catholic apologists to bite the bullet. Instead of telling Protestants that it's just like asking a godly friend for prayers, which feels like a bait and switch in light of actual Catholic practice (not just of ignorant Catholics, but uniform and church-endorsed Catholic practice), it would be better just to say outright: There is an admittedly thin but bright line in Catholic theology between what we do w.r.t. * [with respect to] the saints and worship. You Protestants should just get over your squeamishness over the thinness of that line, rely on its brightness, and cross the Tiber.

http://lydiaswebpage.blogspot.com/2014/11/for-all-saints-and-all-souls-speak-of.html?showComment=1415199778955#c357230309474796733

*[with respect to] - my addition

Marian dogmas began with fiction and Gnostic accounts

My title is derived from John Bugay's article today. (see at the end of this post) Time for a reminder of basic issues we have against the Roman Catholic Church. Peter talked about writing so that he could stir up their sincere minds by reminding the believers of the truth. (2 Peter 1:12-21; 3:1)

Perpetual Virginity, Immaculate Conception, Sinlessness, and Bodily Assumption of Mary have their beginnings in fictional accounts like the Protoevangelium of James and Gnostic writings like the Odes of Solomon and the Ascension of Isaiah (James White, Mary: Another Redeemer?, Bethany, 1998, p. 33). Pious beliefs like co-Mediatrix and co-Redemptrix, that could possibly be declared dogmas in the future by a Pope, are even more later innovative corruptions. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Another excellent book, which we have mentioned here many times before, is worth repeating again: Who is My Mother? by Eric Svendsen, Calvary Press, 2001.

"So, for Mary’s “beginning and end”, we have fiction and the Gnostics. The process by which these “things”, as you put it, became “universal feast days” relies in tremendous measure on the popular piety of what essentially were the baptized pagans of the Roman empire. While it is true that some early things said about Mary (i.e. “theotokos”) were truly intended to say things about Christ, Mary wouldn’t have been on the radar screen (from a Scriptural perspective) if these fictitious legends were not floating about the broader culture."

from John Bugay's article, "Why I reject the Marian Dogmas" at Triablogue. Good job, John!

Just like Mary and Joseph!

Christian couple maintains abstinence through first two years of marriage

Man, I really admire those people. What discipline it must require!

Jonathan Edwards Had a Theology of Mary?

Here's an old paper of mine (2005) that was on Eric Svendsen's Ntrmin website (now defunct):

Jonathan Edwards Theology of Mary

If I recall, the paper was written for a class on Jonathan Edwards. In fact, I think the last time I read Edwards was in 2005.

Eternal Joy from Mary

"In a devotion passed on by St. Bridget of Sweden, the Blessed Virgin Mary promised to grant seven graces to those who console her by daily meditation on the seven sorrows of her life. Pray one Hail Mary after meditating on each of the Seven Sorrows...

...I have obtained this Grace from my Divine Son, that those who propagate this devotion to my tears and dolors, will be taken from this earthly life to eternal happiness since all their sins will be forgiven and my Son and I will be their eternal consolation and joy." source

This guy seems pretty stoked about it.

How does Mary Hear Prayers?

On Catholic Answers Live, Jimmy Akin explains how Mary is aware of prayers:


Jimmy Akin: How does Mary Hear Prayer? (mp3)

If doctrine doesn't need to be grounded in Scripture, anything goes! Actually, Jimmy doesn't even bother to offer a Scripture, which in a way, is rather honest.

Muslims quoting Coptic and Roman Catholic sources on Mary

Below is a video in Arabic, with English subtitles, where this Muslim is quoting Coptic and Roman Catholic sources on their views of Mary. It is impossible to tell what the Latin words are behind the Arabic sources, if at all, since all the sources the Muslim quotes from are in Arabic. Maybe the Coptic church and other Orthodox groups don't make those distinctions that the RCC does in official documents. (distinctions between latria and dulia and hyperdulia don't seem to be communicated at all by the sources or the Arabic speaking Muslim. He says that the Coptic Church and RCC "idolize" (I don't know that word he used.) and worship (ebaudat; and abd) Mary. He quotes from the late John Paul II also. I can recognize some of the words because we have many of these words in Farsi. They use a word for worship ( ebaudat; عباده - Arabic or عبادت (Farsi/Persian).

The video is an answer to the Coptic priest, Zacharia Boutros and that he maintained that the Coptic church (and the RC and EO) officially have never worshiped Mary and that she has never been part of the Trinity, which is what the Qur'an seems to say in Surah 5:116 and 5:72-77 and 6:101-102.

Surah 5:72-78


لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ ۖ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ ۖ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللَّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ ۖ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ


(72) They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.


لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلَاثَةٍ ۘ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَٰهٍ إِلَّا إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ ۚ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُوا عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

(73) They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

أَفَلَا يَتُوبُونَ إِلَى اللَّهِ وَيَسْتَغْفِرُونَهُ ۚ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ

(74) Why turn they not to Allah, and seek His forgiveness? For Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.


مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلَّا رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ ۖ كَانَا يَأْكُلَانِ الطَّعَامَ ۗ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الْآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ


(75) Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!

قُلْ أَتَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ مَا لَا يَمْلِكُ لَكُمْ ضَرًّا وَلَا نَفْعًا ۚ وَاللَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ

(76) Say: "Will ye worship, besides Allah, something which hath no power either to harm or benefit you? But Allah,- He it is that heareth and knoweth all things."


قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لَا تَغْلُوا فِي دِينِكُمْ غَيْرَ الْحَقِّ وَلَا تَتَّبِعُوا أَهْوَاءَ قَوْمٍ قَدْ ضَلُّوا مِن قَبْلُ وَأَضَلُّوا كَثِيرًا وَضَلُّوا عَن سَوَاءِ السَّبِيلِ

(77) Say: "O people of the Book! exceed not in your religion the bounds (of what is proper), trespassing beyond the truth, nor follow the vain desires of people who went wrong in times gone by,- who misled many, and strayed (themselves) from the even way.


لُعِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَلَىٰ لِسَانِ دَاوُودَ وَعِيسَى ابْنِ مَرْيَمَ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِمَا عَصَوا وَّكَانُوا يَعْتَدُونَ

(78) Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.

Dr. White did an excellent job of showing in the context of the Qur'an, Surah 5:72-77, when it says that both "Isa (Jesus) and Mary ate food", that this passage, along with 5:116 thinks that Mary is part of the Trinity. (see Muhammad's Errors about Jesus

Surah 5:116

وَإِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ أَأَنتَ قُلْتَ لِلنَّاسِ اتَّخِذُونِي وَأُمِّيَ إِلَٰهَيْنِ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ ۖ قَالَ سُبْحَانَكَ مَا يَكُونُ لِي أَنْ أَقُولَ مَا لَيْسَ لِي بِحَقٍّ ۚ إِن كُنتُ قُلْتُهُ فَقَدْ عَلِمْتَهُ ۚ تَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِي وَلَا أَعْلَمُ مَا فِي نَفْسِكَ ۚ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ عَلَّامُ الْغُيُوبِ

(116) And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah´?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Surah 6:101 - this shows that the Qur'an and Muslim automatically think "Son of God" means that God had a wife.

بَدِيعُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۖ أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ وَلَدٌ وَلَمْ تَكُن لَّهُ صَاحِبَةٌ ۖ وَخَلَقَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ ۖ وَهُوَ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ


(101) "To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things."

Zacharia maintains that the group that worshiped Mary were the "Marians"; (and not the Coptic or other orthodox Christian groups at the time of Islam), which is probably what is known as the Collyridians,(a desert Gnostic sect in N. Arabia and what is today known as Jordan). The Collyridians prayed, bowed down, and presented wafer cakes to icons and statues of Mary.

When the Muslims see these things and read all the exalted language of Copts and Roman Catholics (and I suppose other Eastern Orthodox groups; it was unclear if the Muslim in the video quoted from other Eastern Orthodox groups), and see that these groups pray to Mary, call her "the Mother of the God", bow down before statues and icons and kiss icons and statues, and call her "the Queen of Heaven"; they don't care about the distinctions between latria and dulia and hyperdulia. And the Roman Catholic Church does a very poor job of communicating these distinctions. It really looks like they are worshiping Mary.

The Muslim in this video emphasizes the difference between "took" in 5:116 and 9:31 and "declared" worship of Mary. He asserts that the Qur'an is true because it doesn't say "they declare their worship of Mary", but rather he asserts that all these "Christians" - Roman Catholic, Orthodox, and Coptic worship Mary practically by their actions and prayers and bowing down and praises to her. So, he says it doesn't matter if you don't "declare" your worship of Mary; to the Roman Catholics and Copts and Orthodox, he is saying, "you worship her in deed and practice, while denying you worship her."

The Muslim also points out that the dogma of Mary's sinlessness, points to Mary worship. He claims that the RC sources have quotes from Ephraem the Syrian, Cyril of Alexandria, Augustine, and others on the sinlessness of Mary. He quotes from Origen, but I have never heard that Origen believed in the sinlessness of Mary. He is usually cited as someone who says that she sinned.

He also quotes from the "Christian" sources that say that because of the exchange that Mary and Jesus made - she gave Jesus is human nature, and "He gave His Mother, as a created being, the share in the divine entity". Wow.

It is clear that the Qur'an mis-understood the doctrine of the Trinity, which proves that God did not inspire the Qur'an. The true and Living God would have known what the doctrine of the Trinity is in the sixth and seventh centuries, when Islam started. The description of the Trinity is wrong in the Qur'an, the author of the Qur'an seems to have combined ideas not only from the Collyridians, but also by the nominal and orthodox churches, and other heretical "Christian" groups in the east. The more orthodox churches in Palestine and Syria at the time of Muhammad communicated the worship of Mary, by calling her "Mother of the God", and by their prayers and praises, and actions and exaltation of Mary, that she was part of the Trinity.

This is a very bad testimony to the Muslim world. Even if the RCs, Coptic Church, and EOs claim, "we don't worship Mary", it still looks like it, and smells like it, and definitely brings to them the Scriptural rebuke, "Do not do that! Worship God! (alone) (Revelation 19:10; 22:8-9; see also Acts 14:13-18)

"Then I fell at his feet to worship him, But he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Revelation 19:10

"I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things And when I heard and saw,I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things."

But he said to me, "Do not do that, I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God." (Revelation 22:8-9)


This video shows not only that Muslims misunderstand the Trinity, but also that the non-Protestant groups like Oriental Orthodox, the Coptic Church, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox churches have erred in exalting Mary too much.

Evangelical Reformed Protestants say, "We told you so!"

The only remedy is for these groups, the RCC, the EO, and Oriental Orthodox Churches is to repent of this and get back to the Scriptures and have the right and biblical view of Mary.

Marian Apparitions

I haven't had a chance to listen to this yet- Chris Arnzen interviewed Andrew Mayfield on the subject of Marian Apparitions on the Iron Sharpens Iron program. The mp3 can be found here. I don't know anything about Mr. Mayfield, but Chris usually puts forth a good interview. Considering how many people think Mary is appearing, this topic is quite relevant.

"We believe the fifth Marian Dogma will help protect us from disasters"

News from Zenit: A Marian Offense for Benedict XVI

"Some might argue that because of the existing attacks on the Holy Father, the last thing he should do is to spark more controversy with a Marian dogma on Mary's spiritual motherhood. But Catholic history and faith combine to show that when the Church has faced its greatest battles, whether it be Roman persecutions in the early centuries, battles from foreign invaders at places like Lepanto and Vienna in later centuries, or secular and media assaults in the third millennium, going to Mary with conviction and fortitude effects a release of grace that empowers, protects, and sanctifies the Church in ways that only can only be described as supernatural.

Could we not be facing a parallel situation in our own day, with the world’s secular media and even some mistaken members of the Church are clamoring for the resignation of our beloved Holy Father amidst international ecclesiastical crisis?

Perhaps we need the same Marian remedy, when all human efforts of diplomacy and justice seem to be far from sufficient for the present crises facing the Church and the Papacy -- a Marian proclamation which recognizes Mary’s roles of intercession and in so doing, brings them powerfully and historically into full action for our Church and for our Pope today."

Also related: The Pope's recent prayer to Mary (May, 2010)

Mother most gentle,
you know each one by name,
you know each one’s face and personal history,
and you love them all
with maternal benevolence
that wells up from the very heart of Divine Love.

To Mary, For Heretics

A prayer from the 1910 Edition of The Raccolta or Collection of Indulgenced Prayer and Good Works:

Prayer for the Conversion of Heretics and Schismatics.

O MARY, Mother of mercy and Refuge of sinners, we beseech thee to look with pitying- eyes on heretical and schismatical nations. Do thou, who art the Seat of wisdom, illuminate their minds, wretchedly involved in the darkness of ignorance and sin, that they may know the Holy, Catholic, Apostolic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of JESUS CHRIST, out of which no sanctity or salvation can be found. Finally, complete their conversion by obtaining- for them the grace to believe every truth of our holy Faith, and to submit to the Sovereign Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of JESUS CHRIST on earth, that thus, being soon united to us by the bonds of divine charity, they may make with us but one fold under one and the same pastor, and that we may thus, O glorious Virgin, all sing exultingly for ever, "Rejoice, O Virgin Mary! alone thou hast destroyed all heresies in the whole world." Amen. (source, pg. 205)

Witnessing to Muslims: Answering "Son of God" terminology

Bad Witness: Praying to and bowing down to Mary

Someone recently called into the Dividing Line Pod-cast Program (Dr. James White of Alpha & Omega Ministries; see www.aomin.org)  and asked for help on witnessing to Muslims. He told of his experience in a Muslim area in Africa (Uganda) and that the Muslims kept saying, “God cannot reproduce!”; How many times have I heard this over the last 26 years in witnessing to Muslims?!: “God cannot have a wife!” “God cannot have a son!” “God did not lust after Mary and marry her and have sex with her!”

To our Roman Catholic and Orthodox readers – see, here we have a living example of recent history of Muslims who still believe the Trinity is “Father, Son, and Mother”. (Surah 5:116) This is very common all over the Muslim world. I know from experience also. So, the Marian dogmas and practices and praying to her and having statues and icons and exalting her too much are still contributing to that mis-understanding. The Qur’an defines for them what we believe – Surah 6:101 – they don’t really care what the official doctrine of the Trinity is.

“Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth; How can He have a son when He hath no consort [spouse, mate, sexual partner]?” He created all things, and hath full knowledge of all things.” ( Qur’an 6:101, with my own parenthetical comments)

Pictures of John Paul 2 (and other Popes and other Roman Catholics) bowing down before a giant statue of Mary just confirms in their minds and hearts what the Christians really believe.

http://files.aomin.org/images/jpeg/PopeMaryworship.jpg

Only very educated Muslims who take the time to read and study find out what the doctrine of the Trinity is; and it is usually their “apologists” who are trained to come to the west to seek to win westerners to Islam.

I would like to suggest that believers in Jesus Christ slow things down a bit for the Muslims and, to use a mathematical learning analogy, instead of trying to teach them Calculus (the eternal Sonship of Christ and the Trinity); we should begin with simple math: like addition, subtraction and multiplication. We will get to Calculus, don’t worry, but don’t move there too quickly.

1. With passion and conviction, agree with your Muslim friend that it is Blasphemy to think God took a wife !! Get worked up over this and show them with passion that we do not believe this. There is a fun Arabic phrase that many Muslims know and use when someone says something wrong, "Estaqfr'ullah !" استغفرالله   (Literally in Arabic, this means "I seek the forgiveness/pardon of Allah", but it seems to be saying to the person who said something like "Jesus is the Son of God" as a response to that - ie, "May God forgive you!"; "May it never be!") I have used this and it is effective to show how strongly the Bible is against their idea of what "the Son of God" or the Trinity means. Focus like a laser beam and spend time on this with your Muslim friend before you try and explain the “eternal Sonship” of Christ and “eternally begotten” language, or the Trinity.  Most Muslims are so strong in their belief in monotheism, that if you move too fast and try to explain the doctrine of the Trinity, they will not hear what you are saying, because you have not convinced them first of your own monotheism, that there is only one God.   As it is, only the Spirit of God can open people's hearts, whether they are an atheist or Muslim or a teenager American who is the son of a Turkish father and Swedish mother.  (see John 6:44, 65; Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-8; Acts 16:14; Luke 24:45;  2 Timothy 2:24-26)  Even so, that does not give an excuse for being rude or short with people and for not sincerely trying to explain things to them.  God works through the means of patience, explaining, teaching, suffering, praying, hospitality, non-verbal communication, tone, attitude, etc.  You have to work on these truths first - and show them verses from the Bible -  1. You don’t believe God got married or had sex with Mary; and 2. You don’t believe in three gods. It is also effective to stay on monotheism for a while and quote and use Mark 12:29 (Jesus quoting the Shema in Deut. 6:4).

Muslims are fun people to witness to! They are willing to talk about God and spiritual things. They believe in right and wrong and heaven and hell, and judgment day. I have had many Muslims say to me, "I respect you Mr. Ken, because you believe in your book as the truth." "Most of the other Christians we meet don't really believe they have the truth."

They are incredibly hospitable and we need to learn how to reach out in friendship evangelism, along with apologetics and debate; and one time "contact" evangelism. Jesus was the friend of sinners and tax-collectors, eating with them. We need to show Christ's love by being willing to have meals of shish kebab and hummus and drink strong Arabic/Turkish coffee with them.

Trying to explain the Trinity and the eternal Sonship of Christ too soon for Muslims is like trying to explain Calculus before addition, subtraction, and multiplication. You can and should eventually get to those truths; but it is better to start on the basic issues to help the Muslim overcome them; all the while praying that God will open their eyes and heart to understand and believe. ( John 6:44; Acts 16:14) It may not happen in one setting either. Many missionaries to Muslims have said that the average Muslim usually needs to hear the gospel 100 times over a period of 1 year in friendship with a true Christian. Obviously God can open the heart and draw in only one hearing of the gospel. We are only saying that this is the experience of many missionaries who have spent lots of time with Muslims; including this writer.

2. Point out that the Qur’an also uses metaphoric language of filial terms, “son” and “mother”. The Arabic phrase, “son of the road” ( Ibn ol sabeel ) = “traveler”, “wayfarer”; “mother of the book” ( um ol kitab ) = source of revelation; “Mother of villages” = Mecca. (Surah 6:93, 42:7, Pickthall’s footnote) In Egypt, the Arabic expression, “son of the Nile” – “one who lives on the Nile River.

“Son of the Road” (Qur’an 2:177; 4:36; 8:41; 9:60), “Mother of Book” (Qur’an 13:39; 43:3-4; 3:7) “Mother of Villages” – (Qur’an – 6:92; 28:59; 42:7)

Can roads, villages, rivers, or books have sex or get married? Asking this question will confound and silence the Muslim for his attacks and lack of listening to our explanations of "the Son of God".

This proves that metaphoric language is used by the Qur'an, and the Muslims should then give respect and a ear to us when we are also using the term metaphorically.

This proves that is not blasphemous to call Jesus, "the Son of God", because the Bible does not mean it in the way that Muslims think when they hear the phrase.

The Qur'an affirms the virgin birth of Christ. (Surah 3:47; 19:19-22) Affirm that Jesus had no human father; therefore, in this sense, God was His Father.

Luke 1:34-35 sounds very similar to the Qur'anic passages on the Virgin Birth of Jesus. It is powerful to use passages in the Bible that are similar to verses in the Qur'an to begin with to establish understanding, and then go forward.

3. Show them some specific Scripture. If possible have them read it in their heart language, whether it is Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, Urdu, Pushtun, Kazakh, Malaysian, or Fulani.

I have found that Luke 1:34-35 along with Hebrews 10:5 to be very effective in answering the “Son of God” terminology.

Luke 1:35 - “ . . . for this reason, the Holy offspring will be called the Son of God”
For what reason? Because Jesus had no human father; and because of the “power of the Most High” and “the Holy Spirit” who conceived, unified, joined spiritually inside the womb of Mary – so, it is NOT from marriage and sex; that is blasphemy (and what Mormons and Greek mythology believed). Rather, the phrase “Son of God” describes the close eternal spiritual relationship that the Father and Son have always had from all eternity past, being of the same nature, but in personal relationship. God is personal, not an impersonal force or principle. God is Spirit (John 4:24), so there can be no physical sex or marriage. This is what Surah 112 and 6:101 and 5:72-73 and 5:116 are speaking against, they are speaking against understanding God and terms like “father”, “son”, and “begotten” in a physical, sexual way.

I have found that Hebrews 10:5 is very effective. - “a body You have prepared for Me”. This shows that Jesus existed before He was born and that God the Father prepared a body for Him.

4. Then you can go to John 1:1 and 1:14 and proceed from there. John 1:1, 14 are powerful for the Muslims because they clearly are calling Jesus “the Word”. In the Qur’an, Isa (the Arabic Islamic word for “Jesus”) Al Masih is called “the word” in Arabic. (Kalimat’allah) (Qur’an 4:171; 3:45) This is a powerful tool. Focus on “the Word” of God before you focus on the “Son of God”. “Allah’s word was with Him from all eternity, right?” You can ask your Muslim friend these kinds of questions: “Did Allah ever exist without His word (His mind expressing itself)? And what about Allah’s Spirit? Was there ever a time where Allah was without His Spirit?” Jesus is also called “a spirit from Allah”. (Ruh min Allah) in Qur’an 4:171. That verse denies the Islamic understanding of the Trinity and the Deity of Christ and the Sonship of Christ; but it does call him, Al Massih (the Messiah), the son of Mary, the Word, and a spirit from Allah; so it is useful to begin with Muslims from where they are coming from; and then go to Scriptures in the New Testament that we emphasized above. We can communicate the "eternal Son of God" (into the past in relationship with the Father) by focusing on the eternalness of the Word of God in eternity past.