Showing posts with label Facebook. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Facebook. Show all posts

Monday, September 14, 2026

Martin Luther's View on Prescribing Marital Intercourse?

 Here's one from a Martin Luther-friendly Facebook group:


I do not believe this is either an authentic quote from Martin Luther or even a second-hand Table Talk statement. It's my opinion this quote with this documentation entered cyberspace via a web-article that provided incorrect research. The quote is an unattributed proverb that picked up Martin Luther as its originator in the nineteenth century.   Let's take a look at how I arrived at this conclusion.


Documentation
The first thing to notice with this quote is that it is purported to be a Table Talk statement. The Table Talk is a collection of secondhand comments written down by Luther's friends and students, published after his death. It often falls on deaf ears when I point out that Luther didn't write the Table Talk. Since the statements contained therein are purported to have been made by Luther, they should serve more as corroborating second-hand testimony to something Luther is certain to have written. Easily verifiable are the many comments from Luther about marital sex published with his approval while he was alive. I am not familiar though with him writing or saying this particular sentiment as purported either while alive or via a published Table Talk utterance after his death. Frankly though, it wouldn't surprise me if he did say it!

This Facebook post provides a reference: "watr 6,247,24." This is a reference to the 6th volume of Luther's Tichreden  (Table Talk), page 247 as part of the official Weimar edition of Luther's writings. I'm assuming "24" is the line number. When I check WA Tr 6:247, I do not see this quote anywhere on the page. Line 24 would fall in this paragraph: 


It isn't there. A Google AI English rendering states, 
Such a fellow is D. Jäckel, who is imprisoned in Leipzig and despised by everyone; for he is said to be capable of more than preaching. He had my miller Auna S. wooed, but I sent word to him: That shall never happen. And to the maiden: If you want him, then get away from me immediately! I will neither hear of you nor see you! The same thing happened to him with Mayor H. K., when he had his daughter wooed.

I asked for further clarification. Again the WA Tr 6:247, 24 reference was cited, but I was also provided with documentation from the English edition of Luther's Works (LW):

now, the english translation of the weimar edition (wa tr 6, 247, 24) can be found in luther's works (philadelphia edition), vol. 54: table talk (pp. 139–140, no. 3701, ca. 1538–1542). there it reads literally:“twice a week is the due of women; it hurts neither you nor me, and makes the year one hundred and four.” the original german passage appears in martin luther's table talks, weimar edition (wa tr) 6, 247, 24: “die woche zwer, der weiber gebühr, schadet weder mir noch dir machts jahr hundert und vier.”

I checked the Table Talk in the Philadelphia edition of Luther's Works (LW 54). The quote was not on pages 139-140. The entries on those pages are from 1532, not "ca. 1538-1542." The entry numbers on pages 138-139 are 1325, 1326, 1327, 1329, not "no. 3701." In LW 54, entry 3701 is found on pages 261-262... and the quote is not there.  In the Weimar edition, Table Talk 3701 is found in WA Tr 3:545-546. The quote is not there either. Nowhere in LW does it say in English, “twice a week is the due of women; it hurts neither you nor me, and makes the year one hundred and four.” I'm entirely confused by the LW follow-up documentation! 

Where then did this information come from? I suspect it was taken from a webpage article entitled Meister Eckhart´s Mystik und der "fröhliche Wechsel" bei Martin Luther. This paper states,

Daß Sexualität Modus und sakramentaler Ausdruck der Ehe ist, hat Luther nicht bestritten, ist doch heute noch in evangelischen Familien eine genaue Zahlenangabe über den zuträglichen ehelichen Sexualverkehr sprichwörtlich geronnen im Umlauf.[286]

[286] WATR 6,247,24 „Die Woche zwier, der Weiber Gebühr, schadet weder mir noch dir, macht's Jahr einhundert- und vier.“

Google translate:

Becoming one flesh is an expression for marriage. Luther did not deny that sexuality is the mode and sacramental expression of marriage, and even today, a precise numerical guideline regarding appropriate marital sexual intercourse is still proverbially circulating in Protestant families. [286]

[286] WATR 6,247,24 "Twice a week, that's a woman's due, it harms neither me nor you, making it one hundred and four times a year."

I can't know for sure this is where the quote was taken from, but the similarities suggest there is a potential collaboration. As per Google AI, it concludes the quote is attributed to Luther, but not proven to be his:

Authorship: Although the quotation is attributed to Luther in many collections, its actual origin has not been proven beyond doubt historically. It appears increasingly in this form in collections of proverbs of the 19th century.

I agree with Google AI. There are nineteenth century occurrences of the quote found via simple searches. For instance, here's one from 1838 mentioning it is "Luther's rhyme":




This 2013 book appears to have done the necessary work of trying to trace the quote down to its source:




Google AI English translation:

In Wilhelm Wander's fifth volume of his German Proverbs Lexicon, published in 1880, the saying reads: "Two weeks, the women's fee, harms neither me nor you, makes one hundred and four in a year." Wander cites the oldest known evidence to date, three collections of German proverbs. Wilhelm Körte was the first to attribute the saying to the Reformer in 1837. Josua Eiselein adopted it in 1840, and finally It can be found in Karl Simrock's work from 1846. None of the three authors provide a source. Wander also quotes a variant appropriate to the "nation of love" from a book on French proverbs published in 1841: "Il faut se resveiller deux foys la nuit pour vendre le bien de sa femme" (One must wake up twice in the night to give one's wife what she deserves). Whether there were any connections between the German and French variants in the form of migration remains to be determined. It is not impossible, as Paris was a popular place of exile for German artists, especially in the 1830s. Heinrich Heine and Ludwig Börne are examples. 

It should be noted in passing that Luther, in reference to Luke 18:9-14, repeatedly recommends performing another action, namely fasting, twice a week, for example in a sermon on August 31, 1522. But this, being quite the opposite of the saying under discussion, can hardly be considered its source.


Conclusion
The quote "twice a week is the due of women; it hurts neither you nor me, and makes the year one hundred and four" or it's English variant, "Twice a week, is a woman's due, harms neither me nor you" does not appear to be from Martin Luther at all. Therefore, it is false that "martin luther to married couples prescribed intercourse at least twice a week as the correct quota, no matter what."

Monday, June 19, 2023

Luther: "to be sure, each Christian is for himself Pope and church"

 Through a Facebook discussion comes this shocking Martin Luther quote:

Do Protestants believe in the Papacy? They sure do; they just don't believe in the Catholic Papacy! Ken Hensley as a Protestant writes, Luther wrote, "to be sure, each Christian is for himself Pope and church" (Wierke, Weimar: 1898, 5:407, p. 35). This, in part is why Ken isn’t Protestant anymore!
This is a standard pop-apologetic Roman Catholic argument: without Rome's infallible interpreter governing the meaning of Scripture, each person functions as their own interpreter of Scripture.  This Facebook post goes on to say, "As one Protestant minister convert put it, when he became Catholic, 'I am glad I don’t have to be the Pope anymore.' I must admit, there are some honest Protestants out there!" This is old-school Roman Catholic apologetics in which a seemingly outrageous quote from Luther is utilized (along with a reference to an obscure source) to justify Roman Catholicism. Why would Luther say or write such a thing? Why would he affirm that without the Roman Catholic papacy, each person becomes a Pope? It seems like a bizarre admission from the Reformer. 

We'll see from the context, Luther was not saying what this argument purports.  

Documentation
The documentation offered is first to Roman convert Ken Hensley's article, Is Sola Scriptura Biblical? Mr. Hensley writes, 
We’ve been talking about the “foundation” upon which Protestantism as a worldview is built: sola Scriptura. What is involved in a commitment to sola Scriptura? It’s often summarized simply as the belief that the inspired Scriptures are to function as the “sole infallible rule of faith and practice for the individual Christian and for the Christian Church.” But actually, sola Scriptura includes within it another key commitment: the right of each Christian to study the Bible and decide for himself what it is teaching. Protestants commonly refer to this as the “right of private judgment,” and it’s understood as following inescapably from a belief in sola Scriptura. “In these matters of faith,” Luther wrote, “to be sure, each Christian is for himself pope and church” (Werke, Weimar: 1898, 5:407, p. 35).
Mr. Hensley presents a Luther quote in English, but if the documentation is checked, the source is in Latin. This is standard pop-apologetic Roman Catholic methodology: give off the appearance of credible scholarship by using obscure sources. Luther said x, here is a reference to a source that casual English readers will not know how to look up, and even if they do know how to look it up, they will only understand the source if they can read German or Latin!   

I suspect Mr. Hensley actually did not translate Latin into English, nor did he actually utilize "Werke, Weimar: 1898, 5:407, p. 35." It is more likely he cut-and-pasted this quote from elsewhere. Perhaps he used the Robert Sungenis driven anthology, Not By Scripture Alone. This book uses the same English rendering and documentation:  
Luther, the grand champion of sola scriptura, ultimately was forced to set his own authority above Scripture when the Bible contradicted his own position...This appeal to his own authority was consistent with his conviction that "in these matters of faith, to be sure, each Christian is for himself Pope and Church" (in his enim, quae sunt fidei, quilibet Christianus est sibi Papa et Ecclesia). [D Martin Luthers Werke: Kritische Gesamtausgabe (Weimar: 1898; 5:407, 35]. 
The primary source cited by Mr. Hensely is "WA 5:407, p. 35." Someone trying to figure out this reference first needs to figure out why Mr. Hensley presented two different page numbers: 407 and 35. Maybe whatever secondary source he utilized added the "p," or perhaps if the Sungenis anthology was used, he added the "p" himself.  The page is 407. "35" refers to the line being cited on the page: 


This volume contains Luther's comments on Psalms 1-22,1519-1521. The comment comes from Luther's insights into Psalm 14. This text has been translated into English, Martin Luther's complete commentary on the first Twenty-Two Psalms (vol. 2). The quote can be found on page 64.

Context 
And to this we ought to be moved by the consideration, that this knowledge of ours renders us safe, so that the works of ceremonies cannot hurt us when we know that we are justified by faith. And again, we ought to be moved to this, by the knowing that we have good things in Christ, and have no longer to labour under considerations and thoughts about the manner in which we may be justified. And therefore, all our life from henceforth should be lived to the benefit of our neighbour: as Christ lived for us; and, as we do all other things for their good, much more should we attend to these indifferent ceremonies for their good. And therefore, we owe no man any thing but to love one another: and by this love it comes to pass that all things whatsoever we do are good; and yet, we seek not to be justified by our works; and this is to be a Christian.
I will now only add one thing, and bring these observations to an end. — If any one shall perceive that he has a confidence or trust in the works of ceremonies, let him be bold, and at length cast them off: and in this let him not wait for any dispensation or power from the Pope: for in these matters every Christian is a pope and a church to himself: nor should any thing be decreed concerning him, nor should he abide by any thing that is decreed, which can in any way lead his faith into peril. But if he shall wish to communicate with his neighbour upon this matter, in order that he may be rendered the more certain by his word, (according to that scripture, "If any two of you shall agree upon earth concerning any thing," &c. Matt, xviii.) he does well.

Conclusion
The above context is a conclusion to a lengthy argument Luther was making in regard to justification by faith alone and justification by works, with a discission on the role of church ceremonies. Do church ceremonies play a part in justification before a holy God? Does going to or participating in a church ceremony have any effect on one's standing before God? In Luther's day, a church ceremony was a "good work" that could play a part in a person's justification. Therefore, one could place their confidence in the work of a ceremony. for Luther, this would be a denial of faith alone and would be placing one's confidence in something other than the work of Christ. In context, Luther says to cast off placing confidence in the work of a church ceremony. Cast away any infallible declarations of the church in regard to justification. The pope and church does not justify a person before God, the work of Christ does. 

It's also obvious from the context that sola scriptura was not being discussed. Rome's defenders have created a context and placed a Luther quote in that created context... this is a pure example of taking something out of context! Over the years, I've been chastised by Rome's defenders for being "anti-Catholic." What they fail to realize is that their blatant carelessness with the details of their arguments demonstrates to me they are the true anti-catholics. The goal of going through particular quotes is not to defend Luther as a Protestant saint. I see the study of any person in church history as an exercise in the love of God and neighbor. How do I love my neighbor in the study of church history? If I bear false witness against my neighbor, even if he's been dead for hundreds of years, I am not loving him.