Thursday, June 01, 2023

Bad Arguments Against Roman Catholicism

Have you ever considered the cogency of your argumentation? I began this blog back in late 2005. It served primarily as a place in which to keep track of my interactions with Roman Catholicism and my theological endeavors. Now almost two decades later, here is a reflection on those lines of reasoning I think are the least meaningful in engaging Rome's defenders. They are in no particular order, nor is this list exhaustive. 

1. The Pope is the Antichrist, or Rome is the "Whore of Babylon" etc.
I was raised in a period when many took Hal Lindey's The Late Great Planet Earth seriously. This also coincided with Jack Chick tracts and comic books ("Alberto"). It wasn't all that long ago that Dave Hunt released his opus, The Woman Rides The Beast. The belief that the Pope is the antichrist and the Roman church plays prominently in Revelation may seem like the meanderings of the Schwärmerei, but it was also included originally in the Westminster Confession of Faith and some of the Reformers were convinced of it (the Reformers were not the first but were preceded by the Joachimites). Generally, Protestants in the historicist tradition of end times interpretation identified the papacy in Revelation. My two cents: First, arguing that the Papacy is embedded in eschatology is speculative. There is no certain way to know that it fulfills prophecy... until prophecy is fulfilled. Second, the exact interpretation of the culmination of the events of the world, while important, is not the main issue of division between Roman Catholic theology and the church of Jesus Christ... the Gospel is. 

2. Abuse Scandals
Abuse scandals can certainly serve as good examples of hierarchical subterfuge in any organization that claims a lofty pedigree of divine favor. The Reformers had no problem using scandal and abuse as arguments against Rome. The scandals pointed to greater doctrinal issues that played a key role in perpetuating ecclesiastical abuse. My two cents: The problem is that using abuse scandals as an apologetic argument against Rome forces one to explain abuse scandals within various Protestant churches. If it is argued that an abuse scandal proves that Rome is not the ultimate infallible authority, how does one avoid this contrary: abuse scandals within Protestantism prove that the Bible cannot function as an infallible authority? If the argument you're using works against your own position, you've refuted yourself as well. Simply saying "Well, they've got more than us" is not a logically good response: truth is not determined by a head count. 

3. Executing Heretics
Similar to abuse scandals, it is true that many have lost their lives at the hands of the Roman church. Some of Rome's defenders are simply waiting for the inquisition or some similar horror to be mentioned so they can then mention the intolerance of the early Reformers or the Salem Witch trials. To complicate it more, Rome's defenders and Protestants have to grapple with the violence recorded in the historical sections of the Bible.  My two cents: like abuse scandals, ff the argument you're using works against your own position, you've refuted yourself as well. Simply saying "Well, they've got more than us" is not a logically good response: truth is not determined by a head count. 

4. Theotokos: Mother of God
Some of the silliest dialogues with Rome's defenders is over the phrase, "Mother of God." Rome's defenders may employee a method of attempting to back people into affirming Christological heresies if the title "Mother of God" is denied. My Two Cents: The term has evolved in its usage. What was once a rich theological term expressing a doctrinal truth about Christ developed into a sweeping venerating praise to Mary. One should affirm the former and deny the excessive veneration of the later, reclaiming the etymological essence of "Mother of God." 

5. Big Ornate Buildings
As the argument goes, the Papacy has a lot of money... rather than helping the poor with all their resources, they waste their finances constructing large ornate buildings, therefore, Rome is a false church.  My two cents:  Similarly, some Protestant churches have big buildings and a lot of money (this has provoked the house church movement). Unless one is personally willing to embrace absolute asceticism and only be part of religious organizations doing similarly, I don't see how one can consistently make the argument that Rome is a false church because of excessive wealth.  

6. Church history previous to the Reformation was "Roman Catholic"
Some of Rome's defenders think all of church history previous to the sixteenth century was completely "catholic" and then Protestantism was born, having their first day of church history on October 31, 1517. Similarly, some non-Roman Catholics think that all of church history between the closing of the New Testament canon and the sixteenth century Reformation was the history of apostate Roman Catholicism and should be thrown out. In its place, only the Bible should be cited against Romanism. My two cents: While responding to Rome's claims with the Bible has precedent, the history of the church from its inception to the Reformation period is not the sole property of Rome's defenders. It is the history of the church, not the Roman church. Understanding how earlier generations of Christians understood and applied the Bible can be a valuable tool in taking apart Rome's claims to having a pure apostolic "Tradition."  

7. Arguing against a particular Roman apologist rather than an official statement
It can be invigorating dismantling a Roman Catholic apologist, sifting through their arguments and stopping their shell game of hiding their ultimate authority. Therefore, when one defeats a Roman Catholic apologist, one has defeated Rome. My two cents: Many (if not most) of Rome's defenders are self-proclaimed Roman Catholic apologists: the Pope has not sanctioned them to venture into cyberspace and tap away on their keyboards to defend the Roman church. Therefore, if you are engaging in a dialog with a defender of Rome, you are not necessarily doing apologetics against Roman Catholicism, but rather, an interpretation of Roman Catholicism.  Whenever possible, ask Rome's defenders to document their points with official dogmatic pronouncements from the magisterium. If they attempt to interact with you over the Bible, make sure to challenge them to document their use of the Bible with Rome's official dogmatic interpretation of the passage being utilized.  Similarly with history: say a defender of Rome makes a declaration about Martin Luther, make sure to inquire if it's their opinion, or an official historical conclusion of the Magisterium.

8. Honoring other Christians
Rome's defenders have developed an excessive system of honoring specific people (i.e., people from the Bible and those from church history deemed, "saints"). Seeing the excessive nature of their honoring system and its tie to the Treasury of merit, some react by throwing out "honor" all together.  My two cents: "Honor" does not necessarily have to mean "praying to" or utilizing the Treasury of merit. One can honor those who came before us, whether in the Bible or in subsequent church history. I have no problem saying Mary deserves honor as an important person in the Bible... and so does Moses, Abraham, Noah, Peter, Paul, Stephen, etc. I honor the life and work of Calvin, Luther, Edwards, Spurgeon... and, Dr. R.C. Sproul! I also am keenly aware of honoring those still active in defending the church.   

9. Anything written by a Roman Catholic is wrong
Rome's defenders have written something so it must be wrong or not utilized... even if it is being put out by Catholic Answers or some of the lowest hanging fruit of Roman Catholic apologetics. My two cents: While difficult to do (and I've failed many times), the arguments Rome's defenders are putting forth should be evaluated first before engaging in personal polemic. Recently I read an article from Catholic Answers defending the immaculate conception of Mary. While I disagreed with their premise of Mary's immaculate conception and their conclusion of how it answers a modern theological dilemma of a young girl becoming pregnant with the Messiah, I was challenged by their question of how one should respond when Mary's conception of the Messiah is placed in the same realm as Muhammed having seven-year-old girls as wives. In other words, I did not dismiss the article entirely because it positively argued for the immaculate conception of Mary. 

10. Protestants believe in justification by faith, Roman Catholics believe they are saved by works
This may be the most important bad argument presented.  It is paralleled by Roman Catholics who think Protestants believe they are saved by faith, and works do not matter at all (antinomianism). My two cents: Roman Catholics do not deny the role of faith in salvation, nor do Protestants deny the role of works in salvation. The debate is over their relationship. Both Protestants and Roman Catholics believe in justification by faith... which is why I rarely say "justification by faith." Rather, I say "justification by faith... alone." "Alone" is the sine qua non of the phrase, placing justification in the complete works of Jesus Christ. 

22 comments:

Anonymous said...

About time someone said these things!

Anonymous said...

All relevant, my main argument is the stupidity of transubstantiation
I learnt this not from a Church but in a dry as dust History lesson at a non-denominational school at age 15. Could not believe it then and still can't.

Anonymous said...

Good points generally. I also don't appreciate so called "bad but effective arguments" in discussions with our fellows, or even opposers of our faith. We have to answer politely, avoiding useless quarrels and insults, too. A pair of notices, although:

All protestants may not divide the opinion "faith alone" to which also You refer - but both Luther and Lutheran Confessions understand this expression exclusively and teach salvation clearly without works. A different thing, then, is that works follow the faith. Luther expresses it (in Lectures on Galatians) "as gratefulness" about the salvation. In Lutheranism justification means also salvation, so, who has been justified through faith, owns also the salvation.

About the Pope, part of our Lutheran Confessions is, that he really is an Antichrist - not by person, but by his office. I don't suggest to begin with this argument when discussing with a Catholic, but when asked, we can't lie to someone about our faith, either.

James Swan said...

Anonymous said...All relevant, my main argument is the stupidity of transubstantiation

I would classify a discussion / argument on Transubstantiation as something important to debate, and bringing it up is not engaging in a bad argument.

James Swan said...

Anonymous said... All protestants may not divide the opinion "faith alone" to which also You refer

I have in mind those particularly that do not realize that Rome does not deny the role of faith in salvation... thinking that Rome solely teaches salvation by works. If someone baldly argues this way, it would be misrepresenting Roman Catholicism.

On the other hand, most of those I've seen argue this way may not realize they've arrived at the right conclusion, but for the wrong reason... I would go about it with a demonstration that Rome turns faith into a work!


Anonymous said...About the Pope, part of our Lutheran Confessions is, that he really is an Antichrist - not by person, but by his office.

My main target in this blog entry are those sorts of people I have encountered that are more of the "me and my Bible" types- independent, nondenominational, enthusiasts, etc. They sometimes are addicted to end times discussions with the clarity and importance of the Gospel playing a secondary role (end times takes the primary place in evangelism). If I recall correctly, Rome's defender Karl Keating wrote an entire book against this type entitled, "Catholicism and Fundamentalism."

Jesse Albrecht said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
iconbusters said...

James Swan wrote: “First, arguing that the Papacy is embedded in eschatology is speculative. There is no certain way to know that it fulfills prophecy... until prophecy is fulfilled.”

Response: For more than a millennia Christians have known the identity of the Roman Antichrist and Harlot. This testimony never left their tortured, dying lips. Furthermore, their exegesis was anything but speculative. I’m speaking of those Christians who predated Luther, whose writings are available for all to read, assuming the desire and thirst for the truth exists. Of course, the number of highly respected Reformers who wrote substantial works commenting on the Revelation, along with its companion prophetic Scriptures, is truly mind-boggling and worthy of all Christians’ careful study. To dismiss this last Word from the Lord as ‘speculative’ is to call it ‘unnecessary,’ ‘trifling’ and ‘incomprehensible.’ It is also a slander against untold numbers of Christian martyrs who, according to your theory, foolishly died believing and proclaiming a lie.

James Swan said...

Hello Iconbusters,

Thank you for reading my entry and offering a comment.

"Christians" throughout history have come to different conclusions about the identity of the antichrist and harlot. In regard to "tortured, dying lips" those on the other side of the Tiber have likewise at times done the same to their theological enemies (see #3). For instance, what were the anabaptists thinking in Switzerland when they were being persecuted by the early Reforming movements under Zwingli? Were they thinking about the Papacy as they were being put to death? I do not think so.

I don't have anything in response to "this last Word from the Lord" since I don't know exactly what you mean. But: notice how I ended the section you are commenting on:"...the exact interpretation of the culmination of the events of the world, while important, is not the main issue of division between Roman Catholic theology and the church of Jesus Christ... the Gospel is."

James Swan said...

Hello James, I was wondering what you thought of this article?:

Hi Jesse... I'm super busy as the moment!

JS

DJR said...

From paragraph 1. “Second, the exact interpretation of the culmination of the events of the world, while important, is not the main issue of division between Roman Catholic theology and the church of Jesus Christ... the Gospel is.”

From paragraph 7. “Whenever possible, ask Rome's defenders to document their points with official dogmatic pronouncements from the magisterium. If they attempt to interact with you over the Bible, make sure to challenge them to document their use of the Bible with Rome's official dogmatic interpretation of the passage being utilized.”

What is the official, dogmatic teaching of the church of Jesus Christ regarding whether infant baptism is consistent with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura?

Is infant baptism an official, orthodox practice of the church of Jesus Christ?

Who does one seek an official pronouncement from regarding the issue? A Lutheran, a Baptist, a Presbyterian, a Methodist, a member of the Church of Christ, a Pentecostal?

Are people in those various groups members of the church of Jesus Christ?

Does the Holy Ghost teach one part of the church of Jesus Christ something and teach another part of the church of Jesus Christ the exact opposite?

DJR

James Swan said...

1. "official dogmatic teaching" is a Roman Catholic category.
2. "official orthodox practice" is a Roman Catholic category.
3. "official pronouncement" is a Roman Catholic category.
4. People in those various groups can be members of the church of Jesus Christ, or not.
5. No.

As per 1-3, I typically do not respond to questions that assume a Roman Catholic paradigm of theological reality.

DJR said...

"As per 1-3, I typically do not respond to questions that assume a Roman Catholic paradigm of theological reality."

Then how does a person who does not believe in Sola Scriptura determine the theological reality of whether infant baptism is consistent with that doctrine?

Who does one ask?

Is there anyone who can authoritatively speak for the church of Jesus Christ referenced above regarding that issue?

If the Holy Ghost does not teach one part of the church of Jesus Christ one thing and another part of the church the exact opposite, doesn't that have major ramifications for a Sola Scriptura believer vis-a-vis the concept of truth?

In other words, Sola Scriptura is either true or false, and infant baptism is either consistent with that doctrine or it is not.

But no one knows, because there is disagreement among those people who believe in Sola Scriptura, and there is no one who can tell us one way or the other.

That means Our Lord left us without any means of knowing the truth of that issue.

Is that plausible to people?

What this means is that tens of millions of people, from the time of the Reformation until this very day, do not understand or never did understand, the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, a doctrine they profess belief in.

But we cannot know which group does not understand it because there is no way of knowing and no one who can make an official pronouncement about it.

It also means that no one knows the true definition of Sola Scriptura. The only definition that really counts is God's definition, and He has never defined it anywhere. Isn't that so?

If infant baptism is a true practice willed by Christ and handed down to us by Him, then we are required to believe in it and practice it. If it is not a true practice, it must be denied and rejected.

But because the doctrine of Sola Scriptura leaves us without any authoritative voice on the matter, it results in tens of millions of people who are/have been in error. In other words, they reject/have rejected truth. And to reject truth is to reject Christ because Christ is Truth Itself.

Those who believe in Sola Scriptura are the very people rejecting a truth handed down by Christ and commanded by Him. Tens of millions of people are/have been rejecting His Truth, as there are tens of millions on both sides of the issue, but no one even knows which group is doing the rejecting of Truth!

Personally, I could never live with that. Without trying to demean, but in all honesty, from a Catholic standpoint, it makes a mockery of the concept of Truth.

I enjoy this website and visit from time to time. Of course, I don't agree with a lot of things, but I still like to read what is written here. Very informative.

Slava Isusu Christu! May God bless you.

DJR said...

James, I don't mean to hog up the website but wanted to make another comment.

Previously, I asked these two questions:

4. Are people in those various groups members of the church of Jesus Christ?
5. Does the Holy Ghost teach one part of the church of Jesus Christ something and teach another part of the church of Jesus Christ the exact opposite?

You answered:

4. People in those various groups can be members of the church of Jesus Christ, or not.
5. No.

Do those answers not appear inconsistent?

If the "church of Jesus Christ" is invisibly spread out over the above-mentioned denominations, that means the church of Jesus Christ contains members that believe in, and practice, infant baptism, at the same time as it contains members who do not believe in, and do not practice, infant baptism.

The list above includes people who do not agree on the issue among themselves.

But if there are Baptists who are members of the church of Jesus Christ at the same time as Lutherans who are members of the church of Jesus Christ, wouldn't that mean that the Holy Ghost guides (teaches) one part of the church of Jesus Christ to believe in, and practice, infant baptism, at the same time He guides another portion of the church to not believe in it and not practice it?

There are only a few options.

1. The Holy Ghost guides the church of Jesus Christ. (I assume you believe this.)
2. The Holy Ghost does not guide the church of Jesus Christ.

Only one of those can be true.

3. The Holy Ghost guides one part of the church of Jesus Christ to believe one thing and guides another part of the church to believe the exact opposite.
4. The Holy Ghost does not guide one part of the church of Jesus Christ to believe one thing and guide another part of the church to believe the exact opposite. (This is what you stated.)

Only one of those can be true.

5. The church of Jesus Christ includes people who believe/practice infant baptism and people who do not believe/practice infant baptism. (I assume this is your understanding.)
6. The church of Jesus Christ does not include both groups.

Only one of those can be true.

Well, if 1 and 5 are true, then 4 is false, because it is a demonstrable fact that Baptists and Lutherans do not agree on infant baptism.

Therefore, if the Holy Ghost guides the church, and the church includes both Baptists and Lutherans, that means He guides one part of the church to believe one thing and guides another part to believe the exact opposite.

Another option is that the Holy Ghost guides only part of the church, and whichever part is wrong regarding infant baptism is the portion He does not guide. But no one is able to authoritatively say which side is being guided and which side is in error, and the Bible is not sufficient to address the disagreement.

Both groups use the same document (the Bible), and both groups believe in the same doctrine under discussion (Sola Scriptura), yet the two groups have opposite beliefs and practices regarding infant baptism.

If the Holy Ghost guides the church of Jesus Christ, how can that possibly be?

And how does one square the idea that the church of Jesus Christ internally contradicts itself regarding infant baptism with Sacred Scripture's statement that that very same church is the "pillar and ground of the truth"? 1 Timothy 3:15.

If a Buddhist wants to convert to Christianity, and he is in a room with members of the church of Jesus Christ, and some of those members are Baptists and some of them are Lutherans, and the Buddhist says, "I have an infant; do I baptize him when I convert to Christianity," what is the Holy-Ghost-guided answer from the church of Jesus Christ?

PeaceByJesus said...

DJR said...Then how does a person who does not believe in Sola Scriptura determine the theological reality of whether infant baptism is consistent with that doctrine?

By presuming he does believe in SS, + examining all baptism text to see if paedobaptism is ever recorded, + if,

those any of who were baptized where those to whom the gospel was not preached + if,

any persons were saved by proxy faith, + if,

any did not need to obey the stated requirements for baptism, that of whole-hearted repentant faith (; 8:36,37) + if,

there is a full correspondence btwn circumcision and baptism + if,

the act of baptism itself effects regeneration, versus penitent, heart-purifying, regenerating effectual faith in the Divine Son of God (; 15:7-9) which is imputed for righteousness, + if,

baptism is actually so essential for regeneration that the chief evangelist would never differentiate btwn preaching the gospel and baptism, and only remember 3 occasions of personally baptizing people, + if,

is reasonable to expect - in the light of the paramount importance Catholicism places upon that the the Spirit of God would leave out any mention of infants being being baptized, without the gospel message being preached to them, and without whole-hearted repentant faith, but by proxy faith, etc.

Which leaves support for paedobaptism resting upon presumptuous extrapolation, which can only hope that the bare mention of family baptisms allows for reading the baptism of infants into it.

Which absence is why Catholics must reply upon oral tradition, which is promulgated by uninspired men presuming ensured perpetual magisterial veracity, which itself is nowhere promised or seen in Scripture, but itself relies on tradition.

PeaceByJesus said...

Baptism texts in the NT church:

, and be baptized every one

Then they that gladlywere baptized:
But when they Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. ()
Then Simon himself also: and when he was baptized
Acts 835-38 what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou , thou mayest. they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him
, And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
, , 8 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. () Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
And they and. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway .
And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. ()
When they this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
, For tunto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

PeaceByJesus said...

DJR said...Who does one seek an official pronouncement from regarding the issue? A Lutheran, a Baptist, a Presbyterian, a Methodist, a member of the Church of Christ, a Pentecostal?

Or the many RC sects which argue about just was De Fide teaching all consists of and means, and the authority of V2 and even of the validity of it? Want a partial list?

And those of the Orthodox, and their substantial disputes with Rome. (http://peacebyjesus.net/eovs.rome.html)

The answer is, that ideally there actually is to be a supreme magisterial office to settle disputes which power pastoral levels could not resolve, which flows from the OT (Dt. 17:8-13) and into the New (Acts 15) with James setting down the definitive judgement, but not as presuming ensured perpetual magisterial veracity, but with veracity being based upon the degree of sound Scriptural substantiation.

Or, based upon the RC model, souls are to submit to all the judgments (esp. as to what and who is of God) to the valid historical judges and stewards of express Divine revelation.

Thus this is what 1st century souls should have done rather than following itinerant preachers whom those who sat in the seat of Moses (Mt. 23:2) rejected, (Mk/ 11:28-33) who established their Truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.

How dare these unlearned souls hold a man in the desert in clothes unbecoming of a respectable minister and a strange diet to be a "prophet indeed" (Mark 11:32) and gladly hear Mark 12:37) the Preacher he pointed to, both of whom the historical judges and stewards of express Divine revelation rejected?

Are people in those various groups members of the church of Jesus Christ?

Not all, as the only one true church which is the body of Christ (Colossians 1:18) to which He is married, (Ephesians 5:25) being the "household of faith," (Galatians 6:10) for it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers, and which spiritual body of Christ is what the Spirit baptizes every believer into, (1Co. 12:13) as "living stones" in this "spiritual house," (1 Peter 2:5) while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism being mostly the latter.

And even a few relative few RCs of simple pious faith are in it, as before.

Does the Holy Ghost teach one part of the church of Jesus Christ something and teach another part of the church of Jesus Christ the exact opposite?

Nope! Your own TradCaths argue against that daily as concerns the Vatican itself. Whose manifests her interpretation of herself by what she does.And by manifestly treating even proabortion, prohomosexual public figures as members in life and in death showings her Vatican's understanding of canon law. Which members you must own, even while arguing that conservative evangelicals should become part of your unholy abomi-nation.

But as with the relative few regenerated RCs who (as I did while being a weekly Mass-going RC) see past the Catholic diversions and its gospel of salvation by grace thru merit, t lay hold of Christ to save them one His account, by His sinless shed blood, not any of their presumed merit or their church;

So also to varying percentages there are regenerated believers in every church.

And hose who most strongly esteem Scripture as the accurate and wholly inspired word of God, with its basic literal hermeneutic, who have long testified to being far more conservative and unified in polled core beliefs and values than overall those whom Rome counts as members in life and in death.

PeaceByJesus said...


There are only a few options.

1. The Holy Ghost guides the church of Jesus Christ. (I assume you believe this.)
2. The Holy Ghost does not guide the church of Jesus Christ.


Which is an amateur false dilemma, a logical fallacy, while you can only wish that Rome was consistent in all that it taught, and that it is so perspicuous that there is not ongoing disagreement about just what magisterial level each teaching belongs to, and thus its scope of ensured veracity, and of required dissent.

And that your "living magisterium" solution has actually resulted in more confusion and fragmentation among devout RCs.


Another option is that the Holy Ghost guides only part of the church, and whichever part is wrong regarding infant baptism is the portion He does not guide. But no one is able to authoritatively say which side is being guided and which side is in error, and the Bible is not sufficient to address the disagreement.

Actually since submission is even required to fallible civil authorities, and Westminster itself affirms that "It belongeth to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same..." - but not as infallible but with veracity resting upon sound Scriptural substantiation, which is how the NT church began, contrary to Rome.

Thus your argument is that there is no infallible authoritatively to settle disputes.

Yet there are claimants to be so, implicitly or explicitly, and thus the question, "how does one know which claimant is infallibly authoritative?"

Since in RC theology, it is presumed that one cannot know what the contents of Scripture consist of apart from an act of faith in Rome, (Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium ) then by faith in here one can be sure that she is that infallible authority.

For Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares, and presumes protection from at least salvific error in non-infallible magisterial teaching on faith and morals.

Which RCs argue that by appeal to Scripture "merely as reliable historical sources" (Catholic Encyclopedia > Infallibility) one may see Rome as being that infallible authority, even history only assuredly means what she authoritatively says.

no less than Cardinal Manning stated, • "It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine....The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour." — Most Rev. Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Lord Archbishop of Westminster, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, pp. 227,28

The NT church manifested its unity in heart and basic beliefs under manifest men of God, in Scriptural probity, purity, power, passion and perseverance, (2 Co. 6:4-10) due to full Scriptural surrender and consecration in heart to the Lord, which is overall lacking today.

PeaceByJesus said...

If a Buddhist wants to convert to Christianity, and he is in a room with members of the church of Jesus Christ, and some of those members are Baptists and some of them are Lutherans, and the Buddhist says, "I have an infant; do I baptize him when I convert to Christianity," what is the Holy-Ghost-guided answer from the church of Jesus Christ?

As already demonstrated, it is quite easy to show what the NT church practiced (and which does mean the paedobaptists are holding on to a tradition with weak Scriptural basis.

However, the larger problem is that of Buddhist says, "I have some confusion about infant baptism: where do I find an infallible authority I can trust to tell? Since I cannot even discover the contents of inspired writings apart from faith in such, and my own judgment upon what history teaches is fallible and cannot be trusted (which is what I need an infallible authority), then how do I find an infallible authority I can trust to tell me all this?" .

"How did souls know who and what was of God before there was an infallible magisterial authority?"

Of course, if your premise is that your chosen infallible magisterial authority solves all disputes within Rome, then you are mistaken.

PeaceByJesus said...

I do not know why the verses on baptism lost the verse refs. Everything shows up as they should in the preview, but then changed. Maybe a browser issue. Let's try Vivladi:

Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized:
Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Acts 8:12) Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized
Acts 835-38 what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him
Acts 9:17, 18 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
Acts 10:43, 44, 47-48 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:43-44) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Acts 16:14-15 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.
Acts 16:32-33 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway .
Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized. (Acts 18:8)
Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 22:15, 16 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
1 Corinthians 1:16-17And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

PeaceByJesus said...

Going back to your article itself:

3. Executing Heretics...My two cents: like abuse scandals, ff the argument you're using works against your own position, you've refuted yourself as well.


True, but in this case you are not to be defending some Protestant state church, but that of the NT, which, among some many other things, is in clear contrast to Rome which commanded (and which some "Catholic Answers" mods seemed to be inspired by):

Secular authorities, whatever office they may hold, shall be admonished and induced and if necessary compelled by ecclesiastical censure,...to exterminate [one version says expel] in the territories subject to their jurisdiction all heretics pointed out by the Church...

But if a temporal ruler, after having been requested and admonished by the Church, should neglect to cleanse his territory of this heretical foulness, let him be excommunicated by the metropolitan and the other bishops of the province. If he refuses to make satisfaction within a year, let the matter be made known to the supreme pontiff, that he may declare the ruler’s vassals absolved from their allegiance and may offer the territory to be ruled lay Catholics, who on the extermination of the heretics may possess it without hindrance and preserve it in the purity of faith...- Canons of the Ecumenical Fourth Lateran Council (canon 3), 1215:

PeaceByJesus said...


10. Protestants believe in justification by faith, Roman Catholics believe they are saved by works ...Both Protestants and Roman Catholics believe in justification by faith... which is why I rarely say "justification by faith." Rather, I say "justification by faith... alone.

Meaning, like as with Abraham, effectual faith, which results in characteristic obedience by the Spirit.

However, it is not that Roman Catholics believe in justification by faith and obedience, but that they believe in salvation by practical sanctification. That by the act itself of baptism the subject is cleansed, regenerated and made actually good enough to enter Heaven itself to be with God.

Until that it is, the subject realizes that his sinful nature is all to alive and realizes he presently would need RC Purgatory until he finally becomes good enough to be with God.

Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. (CCC 1992) The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift...infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. (CCC 1999)

The Catholic idea maintains that the formal cause of justification does not consist in an exterior imputation of the justice of Christ, but in a real, interior sanctification effected by grace, which abounds in the soul and makes it permanently holy before God (cf. Trent, Sess. VI, cap. vii; can. xi).

the souls of all the saints . . . and other faithful who died after receiving Christ's holy Baptism (provided they were not in need of purification when they died, . . .) have been, are and will be in heaven, in the heavenly Kingdom and celestial paradise with Christ, joined to the company of the holy angels. (CCC 1023)

The Catholic Encyclopedia also states that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness " etc. (City of God XXI.24.)

And thus by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation..from which when purified they "were admitted unto the Holy Mount of the Lord". For " they were "not so good as to be entitled to eternal happiness "
One "cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested." (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory)

All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (CCC 1030)

In contrast, wherever Scripture clearly speak of the next conscious reality for believers then it is with the Lord, (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17)

And rather than Purgatory conforming souls to Christ to inherit the kingdom of God, the next transformative experience that is manifestly taught is that of being made like Christ in the resurrection. (1Jn. 3:2; Rm. 8:23; 1Co 15:53,54; 2Co. 2-4) At which time is the judgment seat of Christ And which is the only suffering after this life, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure!) due to the manner of material one built the church with. But which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

And the Purgatory premise would also exclude the contrite criminal of Luke 23:43 and likewise imperfect Paul, (Philippians 3:13) and all imperfect believers who told absent from the body/present but with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:7; cf. Philippians 1:23; 1 This. 4:17)

Four Pointer said...

As far as the argument that the Church was Roman Catholic until a rogue bishop went off the rails in 1517, a few years back I wrote a post called "Error: Everybody was "Catholic" until the Reformation".

https://fourpointcalvinist.blogspot.com/2009/07/error-everybody-was-catholic-until.html