Many thanks to Shahiroz for the contributions and discussion thus far.
Just so you can have an idea of what we're talking about, I'll post my latest comment here. It is responding to this and this comments.
Hi Shahiroz,
Thanks again for your thoughts.
How is Islam false if Christ is divine?
B/c the Quran states explicitly that Isa is not divine.
Surah 5:116-120 (YusufAli) -
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."
Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).
To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.
There is only one God in both Christianity and Islam…please tell me you agree with me.
The question is not monotheism (as we are both monotheists) but Unitarianism. Specifically, whether Christ is God.
Accepting a claimant by what he says is insufficient proof.
You are not an atheist. You are a Muslim, are you not? Then you must believe that Isa was at the least a prophet of Allah. Would a prophet of Allah make false blasphemous claims like "I am God"?
I do believe Christ is Divine.
May I say that you are a strange Muslim?
Forget "divine". Is Christ God?
I didn’t say Isa might have been making a false claim
Well, you said "there have been many claimants". I don't see why you said that.
But OK, when He claimed to be God, accepted worship in place of God, claimed divine attributes, what does that mean?
Muhammad affirming His own authority makes Him worthy of the same acceptance
Muhammad never claimed to be God. We evaluate what he DID claim. We must do the same with Isa to be fair-minded.
Simply put “There is one God, Muhammad and Jesus are two of his Divine Messengers.
But Isa did not allow the option to treat Him like a simple messenger of God. He claimed to be God.
I have no problem saying God in flesh, we all have God in our flesh
I repeat, and I mean no offense, but I've never met a Muslim with stranger beliefs than yours.
You said you're Shia...I am just a little confused. Oh well.
A few questions based on this:
1) Do we all have God in our flesh in the same way that Jesus did? If so, could you briefly describe how you know that?
2) Jesus accepted worship from humans along with the appellation "My Lord and my God!". Does that mean that, since I have God in my flesh, I can also legitimately accept worship from others? Will God be perfectly OK with that?
3) Is it OK for me to say "Before Abraham was, I am"?
A few things since TurretinFan is putting some time in answering David Waltz. Of course he can comment on what he wants, but here's what I'd like to know:
We only have Christ’s words through the NT as represented by the Apostles-Not his words.
But they are quoting Christ.
On what basis can you determine whether they were accurately quoting Christ or not? You clearly believe some of what the NT says about Christ. How can you tell which parts are wrong?
PLEASE TELL ME WHY MUHAMMAD IS NOT ATLEAST A CANDIDATE?
Here are 3 reasons:
1) B/c the Qur'an says in Surah 5:116-120 that Christ is NOT God.
2) B/c the Qur'an says in Surah 4 that Christ was not even crucified.
3) Re: What fruit does the ministry of the prophet bring? Does it lead God's people to holiness and purity? Matthew 7:15,20; 1 Corinthians 14:3,4 Muhammad's teachings have led people into a false idea of how they might be saved. He has taught them that their works can play a part in bringing about their salvation, while the revelation of the NT is that we are saved by unmerited grace only, through faith only.
The Quran teaches the punishment of the wicked is endless too.
This contradicts your earlier statement: just and merciful God saves everyone
Which is it? Are some wicked people punished endlessly or is everyone saved?
The Lord Jesus himself never said to worship him.
He accepted worship.
He denied the idea of tritheism of any kind
Oh! You've been doing so well! Please don't fall back into the careless and dishonorable caricatures that so many other Muslims do, calling Christianity tritheistic. Let's stay on topic!
For this concept of the “Trinity” is an esoteric concept. Nothing literal about it
What is your argument for that?
And is there a reason why you did not respond to T-Fan's Quranic citations?
Only Christ can justly judge my love for Him
True, but He has already clearly revealed the verdict and its bases:
John 8:24 - He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
We judge your BELIEFS as beliefs that do not save, based on God's revelation.
We don't need to judge your sins; the New Testament judges you a sinner already. Everyone is a sinner. We need grace from God to be saved, and that grace is given through faith in the true Jesus Christ.
Let me reiterate that I appreciate very much your hanging around and answering questions and interacting. That is hard to find on the Internet! Thanks again.
Peace,
Posts
25 comments:
PART A: Simply Scriptural sources. Please note similarity in content and style.
1. The Concept of God in the Torah, Zahur, Injil and Quran
God can possibly be a Man
"The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name." Exodus 15:3 KJV
"The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war (ish milhamah): he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." Isaiah 42:13 KJV
God can become a man, without ceasing to be God, there are places where God appeared in human form:
"The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw THREE MEN standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. He said, ‘If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. Let a little water be brought, and then you may all wash YOUR FEET and rest under this tree. Let me get you something to eat, so you can be refreshed and then go on your way-now that you have come to your servant.’ ‘Very well,’ they answered, ‘do as you say’… He then brought some curds and milk and the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them. WHILE THEY ATE, he stood near them under a tree. ‘Where is your wife Sarah?’ they asked him. ‘There, in the tent,’ he said. THEN THE LORD SAID, ‘I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son’… THEN THE LORD SAID TO ABRAHAM, ‘Why did Sarah laugh and say, "Will I really have a child, now that I am old?" Is anything too hard for the LORD? I will return to you at the appointed time next year and Sarah will have a son.’ Sarah was afraid, so she lied and said, ‘I did not laugh.’ BUT HE SAID, ‘Yes, you did laugh.’ WHEN THE MEN GOT UP TO LEAVE, they looked down toward Sodom, and Abraham walked along with them to see them on their way. THEN THE LORD SAID, ‘Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do?’ ... THEN THE LORD SAID, ‘The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.’ The men turned away and went toward Sodom, BUT ABRAHAM REMAINED STANDING BEFORE THE LORD. Then Abraham APPROACHED HIM and said: ‘Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing - to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?’ THE LORD SAID, ‘If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake’… WHEN THE LORD HAD FINISHED SPEAKING WITH ABRAHAM, HE LEFT, and Abraham returned home." Genesis 18:1-5, 8-10a, 13-17, 20-26, 33
"The TWO angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth, and said, 'My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way.' They said, 'No; we will spend the night in the street.' But he urged them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate." Genesis 19:1-3 RSV
Note: Only two men show up at Sodom, which the text identifies as two angels. Where was the third man? The third man had remained behind to talk to Abraham since that man was actually Yahweh God who had appeared with the other two!
Not as easy to find proof of God as man in Quran but God is personified and there is subtle proof I show in the section
“Muhammad”:
"The Day that THE SHIN SHALL BE LAID BARE, and they shall be summoned to prostrate, but they shall not be able,-" S. 68:42
5.54] O you who believe! whoever from among you turns back from his religion, then Allah will bring a people, He shall love them and they shall love Him, lowly before the believers, mighty against the unbelievers, they shall strive hard in Allah's way and shall not fear the censure of any censurer; IIthis is Allah's Face, He gives it to whom He pleases, and Allah is Ample-giving, Knowing. (Shakir)
[5.64] And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.
God manifesting in Human form:
So Jacob was left alone, and A MAN wrestled with him till daybreak. When THE MAN saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with THE MAN. Then THE MAN said, ‘Let me go, for it is daybreak.’ But Jacob replied, ‘I will not let you go unless you bless me.’ THE MAN asked him, ‘What is your name?’ ‘Jacob,’ he answered. Then THE MAN said, ‘Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.’ Jacob said, ‘Please tell me your name.’ But he replied, ‘Why do you ask my name?’ Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, ‘It is because I SAW GOD FACE TO FACE, and yet my life was spared.’" Genesis 32:24-30
"And above the expanse over their heads there was the likeness of a throne, in appearance like sapphire; and seated above the likeness of a throne was a likeness with A HUMAN APPEARANCE. And upward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were gleaming metal, like the appearance of fire enclosed all around. And downward from what had the appearance of his waist I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and there was brightness around him. Like the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud on the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness all around. Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD. And when I saw it, I fell on my face, and I heard the voice of one speaking… AND HE SAID TO ME, ‘Son of man, stand on your feet, and I will speak with you.’ And as he spoke to me, the Spirit entered into me and set me on my feet, and I heard him speaking to me. And he said to me, ‘Son of man, I send you to the people of Israel, to nations of rebels, who have rebelled against me. They and their fathers have transgressed against me to this very day. The descendants also are impudent and stubborn: I send you to them, and you shall say to them, "Thus says the Lord GOD." And whether they hear or refuse to hear (for they are a rebellious house) they will know that a prophet has been among them. 6And you, son of man, be not afraid of them, nor be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns are with you and you sit on scorpions. Be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, for they are a rebellious house. And you shall speak my words to them, whether they hear or refuse to hear, for they are a rebellious house. But you, son of man, hear what I say to you. Be not rebellious like that rebellious house; open your mouth and eat what I give you.’ And when I looked, behold, a hand was stretched out to me, and behold, a scroll of a book was in it. And he spread it before me. And it had writing on the front and on the back, and there were written on it words of lamentation and mourning and woe.’" Ezekiel 1:26-28, 2:1-10
many have both seen and heard from God:
"Micaiah continued, 'Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. And the LORD said, "Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?" One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, "I will entice him." "By what means?" the LORD asked. "I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets," he said. "You will succeed in enticing him," said the LORD. "Go and do it." So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.'" 1 Kings 22:19-23
"In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. And they were calling to one another: 'Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of his glory.' At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke. 'Woe to me!' I cried. 'I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.' Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. With it he touched my mouth and said, 'See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.' Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?' And I said, 'Here am I. Send me!'" Isaiah 6:1-8
"As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened." Daniel 7:9-10
"As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.'" Matthew 3:16-17
"Then John gave this testimony: 'I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water TOLD ME, "The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit." I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God.'" John 1:32-34
"While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!'" Matthew 17:5
"We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, 'This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.' We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain." 2 Peter 1:16-18
"Father, glorify your name!' Then a voice came from heaven, 'I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.' The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, 'This voice was for your benefit, not mine.'" John 12:28-30
The First and the Last/The Beginning and the End:
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.’" Isaiah 44:6
"Hearken to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I called! I am He, I am the first, and I am the last." Isaiah 48:12
"And he said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.’" Revelation 21:6-7
Quran
But to Allah belongs the Last and the First. S. 53:25
He is the First and the Last, the Evident and Immanent; and He has full knowledge of all things. S. 57:3
and to Us belong the Last and the First. S. 92:13
Sovereignty and Inheritor
"Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all." 1 Chronicles 29:11
"The earth is the LORD's and the fulness thereof, the world and those who dwell therein; for he has founded it upon the seas, and established it upon the rivers." Psalm 24:1-2
"The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine; the world and all that is in it, thou hast founded them." Psalm 89:11
Quran
To God belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth; And God hath power over all things. S. 3:189
And verily, it is We Who give life, and Who give death: it is We Who remain inheritors (after all else passes away). S. 15:23
It is We Who will inherit the earth, and all beings thereon: to Us will they all be returned. S. 19:40
To Him belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: It is He who gives life and death; and He has power over all things. S. 57:2
The Resurrection and the Life
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39
"The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up." 1 Samuel 2:6
"At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnez'zar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives for ever; for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;" Daniel 4:34
Quran
He is the Living (One): There is no god but He: Call upon Him, giving Him sincere devotion. Praise be to God, Lord of the Worlds! ... It is He Who gives Life and Death; and when He decides upon an affair, He says to it, "Be", and it is. S. 40:65, 68
Omnipresent
"Am I a God at hand, says the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can a man hide himself in secret places so that I cannot see him? says the LORD. Do I not fill heaven and earth? says the LORD." Jeremiah 23:23-24
Quran
To God belong the East and the West: Withersoever Ye turn, there is the Presence of God. For God is All-Pervading, All-Knowing. S. 2:115
"... And He is with you wheresoever ye may be ..." S. 57:4
Seest thou not that God doth know (all) that is in the heavens and on earth? There is not a secret consultation between three, but He makes the fourth among them, - Nor between five but He makes the sixth, - nor between fewer nor more, but He is in their midst, wheresoever they be: In the end will He tell them the truth of their conduct, on the Day of Judgment. For God has full knowledge of all things. S. 58:7
Omniscient
"then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and render to each whose heart thou knowest, according to all his ways (for thou, thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men);" 1 Kings 8:39
"O LORD, thou hast searched me and known me! Thou knowest when I sit down and when I rise up; thou discernest my thoughts from afar. Thou searchest out my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. Thou dost beset me behind and before, and layest thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain it." Psalm 139:1-6
"He determines the number of the stars, he gives to all of them their names. Great is our LORD, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure." Psalm 147:4-5
Quran
"... For God knoweth well the secrets of your hearts." S. 3:154
God is Prayed to
"I am a laughing stock to my friends; I, who called upon God and he answered me, a just and blameless man, am a laughingstock." Job 12:4
Quran
When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every supplicant when he calleth on Me: Let them also, with a will, listen to My call, and believe in Me: That they may walk in the right way. S. 2:186
Forgiver of Sins
"But Joshua said to the people, ‘You cannot serve the LORD; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.’" Joshua 24:19
"Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases," Psalm 103:2-3
Quran
And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring God to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins, - and who can forgive sins except God? - and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done. S. 3:135
God Prays:
Upon them shall be prayers (salawatun) from their Lord and mercy, and they are the rightly directed. S. 2:157
He it is who sends PRAYERS on you (Arabic- yusallii alaykum), as do His angels ... S. 33:43
Allah and His angels PRAY for the Prophet (Arabic- yasalluuna alan-Nabiyy): O ye that believe PRAY for him (salluu `alayhi), and salute him with all respect. S. 33:56
Take alms of their wealth, wherewith thou mayst purify them and mayst make them grow, and pray for them (wa salli alayhim). Lo! thy prayer (salataka) is an assuagement for them. Allah is Hearer, Knower. S. 9:103 Pickthall
The above passages use the words salawatun, yusallii, yasalluuna and salluu, all of which are derivatives of the word salah-to pray.
The Truth
"Into Your hand I commit my spirit; You have ransomed me, O LORD, God of truth." Psalm 31:5 NASB
Quran
"High above all is God, The King, The Truth ..." S. 20:114
Day of Judgement
"For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the valley of Jehosh'aphat, and I will enter into judgment with them there, on account of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations, and have divided up my land, and have cast lots for my people, and have given a boy for a harlot, and have sold a girl for wine, and have drunk it... Let the nations bestir themselves, and come up to the valley of Jehosh'aphat; for there I will sit to judge all the nations round about. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Go in, tread, for the wine press is full. The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes, in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining. And the LORD roars from Zion, and utters his voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and the earth shake. But the LORD is a refuge to his people, a stronghold to the people of Israel. So you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who dwell in Zion, my holy mountain. And Jerusalem shall be holy and strangers shall never again pass through it." Joel 3:1-3, 12-17
Quran
Nay! When the earth is pounded by power, and thy Lord cometh, and His angels, rank upon rank, and Hell, that Day, is brought face to face - On that Day will man remember, but how will that remembrance profit him? S. 89:21-23
God is not a Man:
"God IS not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23:19
"And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he IS not a man, that he should have regret." 1 Samuel 15:29
"I will not execute my burning anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not a man, the Holy One in your midst, and I will not come in wrath." Hosea 11:9
2. Jesus is a Man
"For who is the greater, one who reclines at table or one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at table? But I am among you as the one who serves." Luke 22:27
"Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God, rose from supper. He laid aside his outer garments, and taking a towel, tied it around his waist. Then he poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, 'Lord, do you wash my feet?' Jesus answered him, 'What I am doing you do not understand now, but afterward you will understand.' Peter said to him, 'You shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered him, 'If I do not wash you, you have no share with me.' Simon Peter said to him, 'Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!' Jesus said to him, 'The one who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but is completely clean. And you are clean, but not every one of you.' For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, 'Not all of you are clean.' When he had washed their feet and put on his outer garments and resumed his place, he said to them, 'Do you understand what I have done to you? You call me Teacher and Lord, and you are right, for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that you also should do just as I have done to you.'" John 13:3-15
"Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Philippians 2:5-8
3. Jesus is a God
Jesus created the cosmos and was called upon in worship by the first Christians:
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made... He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." John 1:3, 10
"In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, 'Ananias!' 'Yes, Lord,' he answered. The Lord told him, 'Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.' 'Lord,' Ananias answered, 'I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.' But the Lord said to Ananias, 'Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.' Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, 'Brother Saul, the Lord-Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit'... All those who heard him were astonished and asked, 'Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?'" Acts 9:10-17, 21
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For BY HIM all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created BY HIM and FOR HIM. He is before all things, and IN HIM all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy." Colossians 1:15-18
"but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven... And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him'... But about the Son he says... 'In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment. You will roll them up like a robe; like a garment they will be changed. But you remain the same, and your years will never end.'" Hebrews 1:2-3, 6, 8a, 10-12
Lord Jesus is alive forever and ever:
"So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, who has saved us and called us to a holy life-not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." 2 Timothy 1:8-10
"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: 'Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.'" Revelation 1:17-18
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again." Revelation 2:8
source of life for all
"In him was life, and that life was the light of men." John 1:4
"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it... I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and those who hear will live... Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear HIS VOICE and come out-those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned." John 5:21, 25, 28-29
"Jesus said to her, 'I AM THE RESURRECTION AND THE LIFE. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?' 'Yes, Lord,' she told him, 'I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who was to come into the world.'" John 11:25-27
"Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and THE LIFE. No one comes to the Father except through me.'" John 14:6
"But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." Philippians 3:20-21
"For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory." Colossians 3:3-4
Jesus has authority to grant others the ability to perform miracles
"And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits… And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them." Mark 6:7, 13
"John said to him, ‘Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons IN YOUR NAME, and we tried to stop him, because he was not following us.’ But Jesus said, ‘Do not stop him, for no one who does a mighty work IN MY NAME will be able soon afterward to speak evil of me. Mark 9:38-39
"Now Peter and John were going up to the temple at the hour of prayer, the ninth hour. And a man lame from birth was being carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple that is called the Beautiful Gate to ask alms of those entering the temple. Seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, he asked to receive alms. And Peter directed his gaze at him, as did John, and said, ‘Look at us.’ And he fixed his attention on them, expecting to receive something from them. But Peter said, ‘I have no silver and gold, but what I do have I give to you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk!’ And he took him by the right hand and raised him up, and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong. And leaping up he stood and began to walk, and entered the temple with them, walking and leaping and praising God. And all the people saw him walking and praising God, and recognized him as the one who sat at the Beautiful Gate of the temple, asking for alms. And they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him… ‘The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him. But you denied the Holy and Righteous One, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses. And his name--by faith in his name--has made this man strong whom you see and know, and the faith that is through Jesus has given the man this perfect health in the presence of you all.’" Acts 3:1-10, 13-16
"And when they had set them in the midst, they inquired, ‘By what power or by what name did you do this?’ Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, ‘Rulers of the people and elders, if we are being examined today concerning a good deed done to a crippled man, by what means this man has been healed, let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by him this man is standing before you well. This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.’" Acts 4:7-12
"There he found a man named Aeneas, bedridden for eight years, who was paralyzed. And Peter said to him, 'Aeneas, JESUS CHRIST HEALS YOU; rise and make your bed.' And immediately he rose. And all the residents of Lydda and Sharon saw him, and they turned to the Lord." Acts 9:33-35
"As we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit of divination and brought her owners much gain by fortune-telling. She followed Paul and us, crying out, ‘These men are servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to you the way of salvation.’ And this she kept doing for many days. Paul, having become greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.’ And it came out that very hour." Acts 16:16-18
"The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, ‘Let light shine out of darkness,’ made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." 2 Corinthians 4:4-6
"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," Philippians 2:5-6
"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation… For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him," Colossians 1:15, 19
"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Hebrews 1:3
Quran---Christ as Deity:
and he shall be a prophet to the people of Israel (saying), that I have come to you, with a sign from God, namely, that I will CREATE for you out of clay (annee AKHLUQU lakum mina ALTTEENI) as though it were the form of a bird, and I will blow thereon and it shall become a bird by God's permission; and I will heal the blind from birth, and lepers; and I will bring the dead to life by God's permission; and I will tell you what you eat and what ye store up in your houses. Verily, in that is a sign for you if ye be believers. S. 3:49 Palmer
S: Jesus gives life to a bird…Creates. Jesus performs miracles.
When God shall say, O Jesus son of Mary, remember my favour towards thee, and towards thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, that thou shouldest speak unto men in the cradle, and when thou wast grown up; and when I taught thee the scripture, and wisdom, and the law, and the gospel; and when thou didst CREATE of clay (wa-ith TAKHLUQU mina ALTTEENI) as it were the figure of a bird, by my permission, and didst breathe thereon, and it became a bird by my permission; and thou didst heal one blind from his birth, and the leper, by my permission; and when thou didst bring forth the dead [from their graves], by my permission; and when I with-held the children of Israel from [killing] thee, when thou hadst come unto them with evident [miracles], and such of them as believed not, said, this is nothing but manifest sorcery. S. 5:110 Sale
S: This is crucial. The Jews did not kill Him…God took Him up. I know this is tough and maybe even something difficult to accept…but can you atleast agree that this reading is possible of the verse..
Christ has the breath of life and can create in exactly the same way God creates: the word for create (khalaqa) refers to creating something from nothing, an act which only God can perform:
HE it is Who created you from clay (Huwa allathee KHALAQAKUM min TEENIN) and then HE decreed a term. And there is another term fixed with HIM. Yet you doubt. S. 6:2 Y. Ali
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay (innee KHALIQUN basharan min TEENIN): When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." S. 38:71-72 Y. Ali
S: God creates from clay…Jesus created from clay.
"O mankind! A similitude has been coined, so listen to it (carefully): verily! Those on whom you call besides Allah cannot create (even) a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly snatched away a thing from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought." S. 22:73
S: More importantly…NO ONE BUT God creates.
Christ is alive in heaven:
And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so I will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. S. 3:55 Shakir
That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise; - S. 4:157-158 Y. Ali
Jesus is a Mercy:
And mention in the Book Mary when she withdrew from her people to an eastern place, and she took a veil apart from them; then We sent unto her Our Spirit that presented himself to her a man without fault. She said, 'I take refuge in the All-merciful from thee! If thou fearest God ... He said, 'I am but a messenger come from thy Lord, to give thee a boy most pure. She said, 'How shall I have a son whom no mortal has touched, neither have I been unchaste?' He said, 'Even so thy Lord has said: "Easy is that for Me; and that We may appoint him a sign unto men (ayatan lil-nassi) and a mercy from Us (wa rahmatan minna); it is a thing decreed."' S. 19:16-21
Jesus Word of/from Allah and Spirit of/from Allah
When the angels said, 'Mary, God gives thee good tidings of a Word from Him whose name is Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary (bi-kalimatin minhu ismuhu al-Maseehu Isa ibnu Maryam); high honoured shall he be in this world and the next, near stationed to God. S. 3:45
People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word (wa kalimatuhu) that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him (roohun minhu). So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian. S. 4:171
4. The Concept of Prophet/Prophethood
God makes no distinction between Messengers:
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; Hebrew 3:1-5
Quran
“And, indeed We have sent Messengers (Rasuls) before you (O Muhammad), of some of them We have related to you their story. And of some We have not related to you their story” - [40:78]
Say (O Muhammad): We believe in God and that which was revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham and Ismael and Isaacand Jacob and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Moses and Jesus and the Prophets (Nabi) from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.” [3:84].
“ We sent no messenger before thee but we inspired him(saying): There is no deity except Me (God), so worship Me.”[21:25].
“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad) but We revealed to him (saying): None has the right to be worshipped but I (God), so worship Me (Alone and none else).” (21:25)
“And ask (O Muhammad) those of Our Messengers whom We sent before you: ‘Did We ever appoint deities to be worshipped besides the Most Gracious (God)?’” (43:45)
“The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ‘We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers Rasuls).’” (2:285)
“He (God) has ordained for you the same religion (Islamic Monotheism) which He ordained for Nooh (Noah), and that which We have revealed to you (O Muhammad), and that which We ordained for Ibraaheem (Abraham), Moosa (Moses?) and ‘Eesa (Jesus).” (42:13)
With regard to what Allah says concerning the believers:
“Each one believes in God, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ‘We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers (Rasuls).’” (2:136)
OT-Moses
"But Moses said to the LORD, ‘Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either in the past or since you have spoken to your servant, but I am slow of speech and of tongue.’ Then the LORD said to him, ‘Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? Now therefore go, and I will be with your mouth and teach you what you shall speak.’ But he said, ‘Oh, my Lord, please send someone else.’ Then the anger of the LORD was kindled against Moses and he said, ‘Is there not Aaron, your brother, the Levite? I know that he can speak well. Behold, he is coming out to meet you, and when he sees you, he will be glad in his heart. You shall speak to him and put the words in his mouth, and I will be with your mouth and with his mouth and will teach you both what to do. He shall speak FOR YOU to the people, and he shall be your mouth, and you shall be as God to him. And take in your hand this staff, with which you shall do the signs.’" Exodus 4:10-17 ESV
"On the day when the LORD spoke to Moses in the land of Egypt, the LORD said to Moses, ‘I am the LORD; tell Pharaoh king of Egypt all that I say to you.’ But Moses said to the LORD, ‘Behold, I am of uncircumcised lips. How will Pharaoh listen to me?’ And the LORD said to Moses, ‘See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land.’" Exodus 6:28-30, 7:1-2 ESV
Melchizadek
"This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, his name means ‘king of righteousness’; then also, ‘king of Salem’ means ‘king of peace.’ Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever. Just think how great he was: Even the patriarch Abraham gave him a tenth of the plunder! Now the law requires the descendants of Levi who become priests to collect a tenth from the people—that is, their brothers—even though their brothers are descended from Abraham. This man, however, did not trace his descent from Levi, yet he collected a tenth from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater. In the one case, the tenth is collected by men who die; but in the other case, by him who is declared to be living. One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor." Hebrews 7:1-10
"Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High," Genesis 14:18
This is strikingly similar to what Jesus did with his disciples on the night of his betrayal:
"While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, ‘Take and eat; this is my body.’ Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, ‘Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.’" Matthew 26:26-29
"Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, and he blessed Abram, saying, ‘Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth. And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand.’ Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything." Genesis 14:18-20
"The LORD says to my Lord: ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.’ … The LORD has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.’" Psalm 110:1, 4
"The LORD said to Moses, ‘Bring the tribe of Levi and present them to Aaron the priest to assist him. They are to perform duties for him and for the whole community at the Tent of Meeting by doing the work of the tabernacle. They are to take care of all the furnishings of the Tent of Meeting, fulfilling the obligations of the Israelites by doing the work of the tabernacle. Give the Levites to Aaron and his sons; they are the Israelites who are to be given wholly to him. Appoint Aaron and his sons to serve as priests; anyone else who approaches the sanctuary must be put to death.’" Numbers 3:5-10
"‘I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.’ At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?’ Jesus replied, ‘If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds." John 8:51-59
"You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.… But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" John 5:45-47
Quran
Prophets are honored servants
And We did not send before you any apostle but We revealed to him that there is no god but Me, therefore serve Me. And they say: The Beneficent God has taken to Himself a son. Glory be to Him. Nay! they are honored servants. They do not precede Him in speech and (only) according to His commandment do they act. He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not intercede except for him whom He approves and for fear of Him they tremble. And whoever of them should say: Surely I am a god besides Him, such a one do We recompense with hell; thus do, We recompense the unjust. S. 21:25-29 Shakir
Those Slain in God’s Way are not dead
And say not of those slain in God's way, 'They are dead'; rather they are living, but you are not aware. S. 2:154
Count not those who were slain in God's way as dead, but rather living with their Lord, by Him provided, rejoicing in the bounty that God has given them, and joyful in those who remain behind and have not joined them, because no fear shall be on them, neither shall they sorrow, S. 3:169-170
Other
And make mention of Mary in the Scripture, when she had withdrawn from her people to a chamber looking East, And had chosen seclusion from them. Then We sent unto her Our Spirit (Roohana) and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. He said: I am only a messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. S. 19:16-19 Pickthall
We have honoured the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creation. S. 17:70 Y. Ali
Vicegerent
And when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a viceroy (khaleefatan) in the earth, they said: Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not. S. 2:30 Pickthall
It is He who has appointed you viceroys (khala-ifa) in the earth, and has raised some of you in rank above others, that He may try you in what He has given you. Surely thy Lord is swift in retribution; and surely He is All-forgiving, All-compassionate. S. 6:165 Arberry – cf. 7:129; 10:14; 27:62
We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostle after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms. Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; - and to Moses God spoke direct; - S. 4:163-164 Y. Ali
And argue not with the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), unless it be in (a way) that is better (with good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with His Verses), except with such of them as do wrong, and say (to them): "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)." S. 29:46 Hilali-Khan
False Prophets-Quran:
And those whom they invoke besides God HAVE NO POWER OF INTERCESSION;- only he who bears witness to the Truth, and they know (him). If thou ask them, who created them, they will certainly say, God: How then are they deluded away (from the Truth)? (God has knowledge) of the (Prophet's) cry, "O my Lord! Truly these are people who will not believe!" S. 43:86-88
No intercessor will they have from those whom they made equal with Allah (partners i.e. their socalled associate gods), and they will (themselves) reject and deny their partners. S. 30:13 Hilali-Khan
5. Jesus is not the only one with Divine attributes:
Bringing the dead back to life:
"Then he cried out to the LORD , "O LORD my God, have you brought tragedy also upon this widow I am staying with, by causing her son to die?" Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried to the LORD , "O LORD my God, let this boy's life return to him!" The LORD heard Elijah's cry, and the boy's life returned to him, and he lived. Elijah picked up the child and carried him down from the room into the house. He gave him to his mother and said, "Look, your son is alive!" (From the NIV Bible, 1 Kings 17:20-23)"
A man comes back to life after death by touching Elisha’s dead body:
"Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man's body into Elisha's tomb. When the body touched Elisha's bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet. Hazael king of Aram oppressed Israel throughout the reign of Jehoahaz. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 13:20-22)"
Creating life:
Moses, creates a live snake from a wooden stick:
"Then the LORD said to him, "What is that in your hand?" "A staff," he replied. The LORD said, "Throw it on the ground." Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it. Then the LORD said to him, "Reach out your hand and take it by the tail." So Moses reached out and took hold of the snake and it turned back into a staff in his hand. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 4:2-4)"
Curing the blind:
"When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. "Oh, my lord, what shall we do?" the servant asked. "Don't be afraid," the prophet answered. "Those who are with us are more than those who are with them." And Elisha prayed, "O LORD , open his eyes so he may see." Then the LORD opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. As the enemy came down toward him, Elisha prayed to the LORD , "Strike these people with blindness." So he struck them with blindness, as Elisha had asked. Elisha told them, "This is not the road and this is not the city. Follow me, and I will lead you to the man you are looking for." And he led them to Samaria. After they entered the city, Elisha said, "LORD , open the eyes of these men so they can see." Then the LORD opened their eyes and they looked, and there they were, inside Samaria. When the king of Israel saw them, he asked Elisha, "Shall I kill them, my father? Shall I kill them?" "Do not kill them," he answered. "Would you kill men you have captured with your own sword or bow? Set food and water before them so that they may eat and drink and then go back to their master." So he prepared a great feast for them, and after they had finished eating and drinking, he sent them away, and they returned to their master. So the bands from Aram stopped raiding Israel's territory. Some time later, Ben-Hadad king of Aram mobilized his entire army and marched up and laid siege to Samaria. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 6:15-24)"
Healing leprosy:
"Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, "Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed." But Naaman went away angry and said, "I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn't I wash in them and be cleansed?" So he turned and went off in a rage. Naaman's servants went to him and said, "My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, 'Wash and be cleansed'!" So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 5:10-14)"
Feeding hundreds with few loafs of bread:
"A man came from Baal Shalishah, bringing the man of God twenty loaves of barley bread baked from the first ripe grain, along with some heads of new grain. "Give it to the people to eat," Elisha said. "How can I set this before a hundred men?" his servant asked. But Elisha answered, "Give it to the people to eat. For this is what the LORD says: 'They will eat and have some left over.' " Then he set it before them, and they ate and had some left over, according to the word of the LORD. (From the NIV Bible, 2 Kings 4:42-44)"
divine claims of Manifestations:
Jesus-
"‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and they will never perish, AND NO ONE WILL SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.’ The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, ‘I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?’ The Jews answered him, ‘It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.’ Jesus answered them, ‘Is it not written in your Law, "I said, you are gods"? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came--and Scripture cannot be broken-- do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, "You are blaspheming," because I said, "I am the Son of God"? If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.’ Again they sought to arrest him, but he escaped from their hands." John 10:25-39
"Jesus said to him, ‘Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, "Show us the Father"? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.’" John 14:9-11
"If I had not done among them the works that no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin, but now they have seen and hated both me and my Father." John 15:24
"concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God IN POWER according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord," Romans 1:3-4
Prophets Attributes
And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him willspeak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? (Numbers 12:6-8)
Those apostles We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them God spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If God had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If God had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but God Fulfilleth His plan. S. 2:253 Y. Ali
And it is your Lord that knoweth best all beings that are in the heavens and on earth: We did bestow on some prophets more (and other) gifts than on others: and We gave to David (the gift of) the Psalms. S. 17:55 Y. Ali
And We gave David and Solomon knowledge and they said, 'Praise belongs to God who has preferred us over many of His believing servants.' S. 27:15 Arberry
Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham and the Family of 'Imran above (all His) creatures. They were descendants one of another. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (Remember) when the wife of 'Imran said: My Lord! I have vowed unto Thee that which is in my belly as a consecrated (offering). Accept it from me. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Hearer, the Knower! And when she was delivered she said: My Lord! Lo! I am delivered of a female - Allah knew best of what she was delivered - the male is not as the female; and lo! I have named her Mary, and lo! I crave Thy protection for her and for her offspring from Satan the outcast. S. 3:33-36 Pickthall
And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants). S. 66:12 Y. Ali
And when the angels said, 'Mary, God has chosen thee, and purified thee; He has chosen thee above all women. S. 3:42 Arberry
Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God; He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous." She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, ‘Be,’ and it is! And God will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel, And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): ‘I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe; (I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me. It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.’" 3:45-51 Y. Ali
"and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church," Ephesians 1:19-22
"For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison… who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him." 1 Peter 3:18-19, 22
Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. S. 3:55 Y. Ali
Nay, God raised him up unto Himself; and God is Exalted in Power, Wise; - S. 4:158 Y. Ali
6. Muhammad
Does not show any miracles performed in the Quran, The Quran is said to be a miracle itself.
But (now), when the Truth has come to them from Ourselves, they say, "Why are not (Signs) sent to him, like those which were sent to Moses?" Do they not then reject (the Signs) which were formerly sent to Moses? They say: "Two kinds of sorcery, each assisting the other!" And they say: "For us, we reject all (such things)!" S. 28:48
Nay; rather it is signs, clear signs in the breasts of those who have been given knowledge; and none denies Our signs but the evildoers. They say, 'Why have signs not been sent down upon him from his Lord?' Say: 'The signs are only with God, and I am only a plain warner. What, is it not SUFFICIENT FOR THEM that We have sent down upon thee the Book that is recited to them? Surely in that is a mercy, and a reminder to a people who believe. S. 29:49-51 A.J. Arberry
Sent as a Mercy:
(O beloved prophet!) We sent you not but as a mercy and blessing for the entire universe (al-Alameen). [Holy Qur'an 21:107]
Opening Verse of Quran: Moh’d given qualities of God.
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful. S1:1
"All Praise belongs to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds". S1:2
S: Therefore, in the same that Allah (swt) is the Lord of the Worlds (i.e. the Universe), so is Muhammad (pbuh) the MERCY to all the Universe (Al-Alameen).
Thou wast not upon the side of the Mount when We called; but for a mercy from thy Lord (rahmatan min rabikka), that thou mayest warn a people to whom no warner came before thee, and that haply they may remember. S. 28:46
CONLUSION: My Intent here is simply to make you see possibilities so I didn’t comment too much but what follows is a summary in PART B.
PART B: A Summary
Above I gave you Biblical and Quranic sources for why I conclude what I do FIRST…So to see if you can conclude the same or not…
BUT IF YOU LIKE TO READ ON HERE IS my CONCLUSION IN SUMMARY:
1. There is only One God.
2. From time to time either God sends messengers in the form of man or manifests himself in the form of man. We know this from the fact that different prophets have different characteristics and missions…and in Islam there is a distintction taught of different types of Prophets. We can discuss this further if you like later.
3. God makes no distinction between his prophets. No distinction is made between men and women who served as prophets. Prophetesses were fewer in number, but their relationships to God and to the people were the same as those of the prophets. Prophet and priest were intended to be associated closely in achieving their objectives. The prophet representing God and the priest representing the people helped to form a two-way system of communication. No distinction can be made between Old and New Testament prophets. All were called by God, and they served in the same capacities and worked toward the same objectives. Jesus identified Himself with the prophets from the beginning, and He declared Himself to be one of them during His earthly ministry. Their messages and His life unite to form the revelation of God's character in the written and living Word.
4. God sent different messages with different prophets.
5. God came with gradual messages, for example upto the time of Moses God was the God of Israel, it was Jesus who who teaches God of everyone in the world.
6. In some cases he came himself.…ADAM to teach us to repent our sins with true intent and we will be forgiven, NOAH to teach us about obedience, ABRAHAM to teach us sacrifice, MOSES to teach us the RULES/LAW, Jesus to teach us His Mercy/Love, and MUHAMMAD to teach us the ONENESS of God. In each case some of the believers have received the message and some have not.
7. God’s manifestation in some cases demonstrates his manness-many prophets I can name-and at other times His Godness-like Jesus, Melchizadek…but that He does does not display His Godness does not mean that you can disqualify as manifestation of God. Just God chooses to show some aspects and not others. Also sometimes, God needs to be more man than God so He can carry out activities He needs to that He would not otherwise be able to. I don’t know Gods reasons of course but this is what I understand.
8. Jesus is most revered in the Quran:
a- Born of a virgin
b-Will judge people on judgement day...
c-CREATED a bird from mud
d-Christ was not deceived by Satan and did not commit a single sin.
e-Christ is the word of God and HIS SPIRIT as per Quran.
f-Jesus said:"So peace is on me the day I was born,the day that I DIE,and the day that I shall be RAISED UP to life”
g-Jesus is the only one spoken of as raised alive to heaven.
9. Jesus said I am not God and did miracles with permission of God...Christians also believe that Jesus is a human and God is inside him. Jesus the human is not God, Jesus the human cried, ate food...even in the bible Jesus sometimes said things as a human being but in the same time said and did things with authority no one but God can do.
10. When the Jews crucified Jesus(Jesus knew he will be crucified ). Jesus died on the cross-his human body but God inside him never diesis alive---when our human body dies our human spirit does not die either...is it clear now? God took him, the Jews did not kill him, they boast they did.
11. As for Muhammad he made claims of being God too but they were definitely more subtle and they are recorded in Hadith. However there is also God’s word that attests to this in the Quran although again its subtle. The fact that Muhammad is a mercy to the universe and Allah is the merciful Lord of the Worlds, is an example of this.
12. You see I believe when you as an individual genuinely want to know the truth and yearn to understand it God will help you see the truth. But you have to reason with your own mind and prayerfully. There is no way God will deny you the Truth for your search is genuine and honest.
13. Finally all these messages were to prepare us for the day when God will openly dwell among the believers forever.
14. Just a suggestion, when you test for a prophet try and rid yourself of negative thoughts…try and be positive. For if the negativity is valid, God will show you…you don’t have to worry…He won’t ever let you be misguided.
Well, just my two bits. What follows is PART C a response to your email. Please note these are my thoughts only...also if you need ellaboration of anything then please ask. Hope I helped.
PART C: A Simple Response to your letter. After the above I don’t know what else I can do to demonstrate…
Rhology,
Thanks you for this dialogue too.
How is Islam false if Christ is divine?
B/c the Quran states explicitly that Isa is not divine.
Surah 5:116-120 (YusufAli) -
And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
"Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.
"If Thou dost punish them, they are Thy servant: If Thou dost forgive them, Thou art the Exalted in power, the Wise."
Allah will say: "This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: Allah well-pleased with them, and they with Allah: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).
To Allah doth belong the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is therein, and it is He Who hath power over all things.
S: Rhology, the Bible has similar definitions of Jesus’s humanness, Does that mean He can’t be God? The Biblical Jesus also does and says what the Father tell him and not of His own accord. And 5:116 is in reference to a specific God that was worshipped in the Kaba, an Icon of the Mother and baby.
There is only one God in both Christianity and Islam…please tell me you agree with me.
The question is not monotheism (as we are both monotheists) but Unitarianism. Specifically, whether Christ is God.
S: God can manifest as man and has and yes Christ is one such manifestation.
Accepting a claimant by what he says is insufficient proof.
You are not an atheist. You are a Muslim, are you not? Then you must believe that Isa was at the least a prophet of Allah. Would a prophet of Allah make false blasphemous claims like "I am God"?
S: I am a Muslim. I believe Isa Masih was a Manifestation of God.
May I say that you are a strange Muslim?
Forget "divine". Is Christ God?
S: Yes Christ is God, Jesus is man.
I didn’t say Isa might have been making a false claim
Well, you said "there have been many claimants". I don't see why you said that.
S: I was speaking hypothetically…Christians accuse Jews of not recognizing Christ. Did you ever think you may be in a similar situation-clouded by your ego…so you can’t recognize Muhammad.
But OK, when He claimed to be God, accepted worship in place of God, claimed divine attributes, what does that mean?
S: Once again I’m with you on the Christ being God however I learned that from Islam …not Christianity...and I still think whats in your mind when you say that and whats in my mind is different.
Muhammad affirming His own authority makes Him worthy of the same acceptance.
Muhammad never claimed to be God. We evaluate what he DID claim. We must do the same with Isa to be fair-minded.
S: There’s hadiths that record Muhammad claiming to be God. I think the Quran makes it less evident because…it was fighting the misconception of some Christian believers that Jesus was God made flesh.
Simply put “There is one God, Muhammad and Jesus are two of his Divine Messengers.
But Isa did not allow the option to treat Him like a simple messenger of God. He claimed to be God.
S:Again I have no problem with this claim of Isa Masih.
I have no problem saying God in flesh, we all have God in our flesh
I repeat, and I mean no offense, but I've never met a Muslim with stranger beliefs than yours.
You said you're Shia...I am just a little confused. Oh well.
A few questions based on this:
1) Do we all have God in our flesh in the same way that Jesus did? If so, could you briefly describe how you know that?
S: We all have God in our flesh. If we become aware of the God in us and we are of Gods chosen then the potential exists. Then if God chooses to manifest in us like He did in Jesus then yes it can be in the same way Jesus did. To be a chosen one, certain things have to also be true, for one ex. we have to be in the progeny of Abraham. So, for most of us, we can “potentially” come to the realization of God in us but being able to live out the role of representative of God is only for those God chooses. I know this answer may be confusing...but need be I will ellaborate later.
2) Jesus accepted worship from humans along with the appellation "My Lord and my God!". Does that mean that, since I have God in my flesh, I can also legitimately accept worship from others? Will God be perfectly OK with that?
S: No. Absolutely not.
3) Is it OK for me to say "Before Abraham was, I am"?
S: Hmmm…again a complicated question. By my understanding the answer is yes, primordially we were all created at the same time. However, Jesus Christ is a chosen one and during His manifestation spoke it because He knew it and was aware of it.
A few things since TurretinFan is putting some time in answering David Waltz. Of course he can comment on what he wants, but here's what I'd like to know:
We only have Christ’s words through the NT as represented by the Apostles-Not his words.
But they are quoting Christ.
On what basis can you determine whether they were accurately quoting Christ or not? You clearly believe some of what the NT says about Christ. How can you tell which parts are wrong?
S: I can’t, only God knows what actually was and I can simply pray He heps me understand the Truth. So also...I ask you not to be hasty in judging God's next revealation.
PLEASE TELL ME WHY MUHAMMAD IS NOT ATLEAST A CANDIDATE?
Here are 3 reasons:
1) B/c the Qur'an says in Surah 5:116-120 that Christ is NOT God.
S: This is false reasoning…the NT also says Jesus is not God and God. Maybe this is a Prophet manifested to correct a Christian misunderstanding. How do you know that is not the case?
2) B/c the Qur'an says in Surah 4 that Christ was not even crucified.
S: That is the mainstream Sunni view and I can’t change that. Does not mean it’s the right view theres other views...and the fact that theres others should be enought to raise a red flag. There are many verses that if you read even without interpreting, nothing esoteric about it but you do need to know Arabic to conclude this and also you need Gods grace.
The Verse again is:
And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.-S:4:157
Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-S.4:158
Commentary: (Not mine from a Ismaili Muslim)
4:157 wa qawlihim in-naa qatalnal masiyHa 'Iysabna maryama rasuulal-laah* wa maa qataluuhu wa maa Salabuuhu walaakin shub-biha lahum* wa in-nal-ladhiynakhtalafuu fiyhi lafiy shak-kim minh* maa lahum bihii min 'Ilmin il-lat-tibaa'AZ-Zann* wa maa qataluuhu yaqiynaa
Abu Ya’qub Ishaq al-Sigistani wrote:
Without doubt murder and crucifixion were inflicted upon his body. The pronoun (hu) since it appeared at the end of the words ‘murdered him’ ‘qataluhu’, or crucified him is a pointing letter to the spirit (huwiyya) of Jesus. So in this exists the evidence he who suffered death and crucifixion was not the spirit (huwiyya) of Jesus. (Kitab Ithbat al-Nubuwat, Al-Matb’aa al-Kathulikiah, Bierut, Lebanon, 1966, p. 185.)
And:
“Cross is the name for the piece of wood on which a man is crucified so that the whole population may see him, and what is crucified on it is a dead body...The wood Jesus was crucified on was provided for this purpose by a group other than his own and these people were the ones who crucified him on it openly and manifestly. (The Wellsprings of Wisdom, edited by Paul E. Walker, 1994, pp. 93-94.)
S: In other words God is saying in jest to those who killed Jesus they think they killed Him, but they did not. His Spirit was raised up.
More verses to back this up:
Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. S. 3:55 Y. Ali
Surah 19:33, “There was peace on me the day I was born, and will be the day I die, and on the day I will be raised from the dead.”
Surah 3:169 “Never think that those who are killed in the way of God are dead, They are alive, getting succour from their Lord.”
Surah 2:154, “Do not say that those who are killed in the way of God, are dead, for indeed they are alive, even though you are not aware.”
“Catholic scholar Giulo Basetti-Sani (O.F.M.) in his book The Koran In the Light of Christ, devotes an entire chapter (“The Text Which Seems to Deny the Death of Christ on the Cross”), to explaining Surah 4:157.” (David Waltz)
3) Re: What fruit does the ministry of the prophet bring? Does it lead God's people to holiness and purity? Matthew 7:15,20; 1 Corinthians 14:3,4 Muhammad's teachings have led people into a false idea of how they might be saved. He has taught them that their works can play a part in bringing about their salvation, while the revelation of the NT is that we are saved by unmerited grace only, through faith only.
S: Only God is a judge. And if you claim Muslims are misled so can I say certain Christians are.
The Quran teaches the punishment of the wicked is endless too.
This contradicts your earlier statement: just and merciful God saves everyone
Which is it? Are some wicked people punished endlessly or is everyone saved?
S: Guess you want me to show you parallels to this in the Bible now. Okay, I will. Endless-implies in time. It is endless in time…But when we are all saved there will be no time. Also while they are wicked they will be punished…but what if they repent, will they not be worthy then of saving? Or is God not forgiving?
The Lord Jesus himself never said to worship him.
He accepted worship.
He denied the idea of tritheism of any kind
Oh! You've been doing so well! Please don't fall back into the careless and dishonorable caricatures that so many other Muslims do, calling Christianity tritheistic. Let's stay on topic!
S: Such arrogance I hear in your tone…you can’t judge how well or unwell I’m doing- only God can and if you prefer only Christ can. Look I don’t know what your idea of your “Trinity” is. But yes I agree to this.
1. There is one God.
2. Jesus and Muhammad are manifestations of God.
3. God breathes His Holy Spirit into them.
For this concept of the “Trinity” is an esoteric concept. Nothing literal about it
What is your argument for that?
And is there a reason why you did not respond to T-Fan's Quranic citations?
S: I have no argument just the facts of the text. Please clearify to what I did not respond?
Only Christ can justly judge my love for Him
True, but He has already clearly revealed the verdict and its bases:
John 8:24 - He said to them, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."
John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
We judge your BELIEFS as beliefs that do not save, based on God's revelation. We don't need to judge your sins; the New Testament judges you a sinner already. Everyone is a sinner. We need grace from God to be saved, and that grace is given through faith in the true Jesus Christ.
S: I don’t take you as any kind of judge for you are no more or less human then I. You can freely judge my faith in Christ if you like, I wont judge you or your faith…You have a right to believe whatever you want and I have no interest in changing your belief. You asked why I believe what I do so I am simply sharing this with you.
Let me reiterate that I appreciate very much your hanging around and answering questions and interacting. That is hard to find on the Internet! Thanks again.
S: My pleasure. Dialoguing about faith matter usually results in an increase in knowledge and faith for me so I love engaging in it. But please note I am sharing with you the results of a personal search and I am simply a student no authority on the matter.
Peace,
Shahiroz
God makes no distinction between Messengers:
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; Hebrew 3:1-5
Huh?
Read the context. The point is that Jesus is superior to the angels and superior to the OT prophets. So, contrary to your assertion, this text shows that God does, in fact, make a distinction between messengers.
It also draws a greater distinction. What makes Christ superior is that Christ is God Himself in flesh. Do mere prophets uphold all things by the word of (their) power?
Chapter 1:
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
7And of the angels He says,
"WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."
10And,
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."
13But to which of the angels has He ever said,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
Chapter 2:
1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
5For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking.
6But one has testified somewhere, saying,
"WHAT IS MAN, THAT YOU REMEMBER HIM?
OR THE SON OF MAN, THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HIM?
7"YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS;
YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR,
AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
8YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET "
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12saying,
"I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
13And again,
"I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM "
And again,
"BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
THEN, we have the text you cited. You can't cite from chapter 3 without what comes before it, and the text before it says not that Christ was merely "divine," but that He is the exact representation of God's nature, that He is worshipped by the angels, etc. He is,therefore God incarnate.
S: This is crucial. The Jews did not kill Him…God took Him up. I know this is tough and maybe even something difficult to accept…but can you atleast agree that this reading is possible of the verse..
Which verse? The Bible is clear on this. Merely quoting the Qu'ran simply begs the question in favor of the Qu'ran over the Bible. Why should we favor the Qu'ran here, when it's the Qu'ran that says that the Bible is true. You can't have it both ways.
Christ has the breath of life and can create in exactly the same way God creates: the word for create (khalaqa) refers to creating something from nothing, an act which only God can perform:
1. Nothing you say here demonstrates that Christ was not put to death by the Jews, unless you think that we believe God Himself can die.
2. Apropos 1, Christianity does not teach that Christ died as to His divinity. Rather, we affirm He died with respect to His humanity.
.Christians also believe that Jesus is a human and God is inside him.
Wrong!
The Christian doctrine is that, in the Incarnation, Christ is fully God and fully man. Christ has a human soul. We do not affirm that the divine part of Christ is also His soul, as you say that He is a man with God inside of Him. That is sort of Apolinarianism.Apollinarianism was the heresy taught by Apollinaris the Younger, bishop of Laodicea in Syria about 361. He taught that the Logos of God, which became the divine nature of Christ, took the place of the rational human soul of Jesus and that the body of Christ was a glorified form of human nature. In other words, though Jesus was a man, He did not have a human mind but that the mind of Christ was solely divine. Apollinaris taught that the two natures of Christ could not coexist within one person. His solution was to lessen the human nature of Christ.
Apollinarianism was condemned by the Second General Council at Constantinople in 381.
Read the Creed of Chalcedon:
We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body(25) consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood(26); in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood(27); one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures,(28) inconfusedly, unchangeably(29), indivisibly, inseparably(30); the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
All broadly Christian groups holding an orthodox Christology, Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox affirm this Council. The only difference is that we ascribe varying levels of authority to it. The Orthodox include it simply as part of Holy Tradition. Catholicism gives it infallibly binding authority. Protestantism esteems it as the greatest summary of Christological orthodoxy ever written but denies it is infallibly binding on the conscience.
3. Apropos 2, when Christ died, He died as to His humanity. God cannot die, therefore, as to His divinity He did not die. His human soul is forever and inextricably united to His divinity in a single, unique person. This is called the hypostatic union. Aside from those who affirm the descent into hell, the rest of us affirm that at no time was Christ separated from the Father, for it is impossible, due to the impenetration of the 3 Persons of the Trinity, for the Son and Father to be separated. Rather, He entered the presence of the Father in heaven/paradise. The Resurrection was physical and bodily and vindicated Him.
Indeed, the Son has never been separated from the Father or Spirit, for God is atemporal and nonspatial. It is impossible to separate the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity, for it is not possible to physically separate nonspatial entities that impenetrate.
Jesus said I am not God and did miracles with permission of God..
Wrong. To take just two instances: John 8:24 and John 13:19. "I am (he) corresponds to parallel statements in texts like Isaiah 41:4 and many others in Isaiah in which God Himself is speaking. Look these up for yourself.
And these claims are not unique to Joh. In Luke 5:17-26 and 7:36-49 where Jesus freely forgives people of their sins, “the leadership complains that he is claiming to do something only God can do. … He is claiming to make himself equal with God. (Bock, Jesus According to Scripture, 605.) The only one who is equal with God is God.
Shahiroz,
If you think the Synoptic Gospels do not teach Jesus is God, then you really need to listen to the first 3 lectures listed here:
http://theologica.blogspot.com/2008/03/gheens-lectures-by-simon-gathercole.html
I also suggest you read the book to which those lectures are foundational. It is listed there as well.
Hello Gene,
Could not sleep so I thought I would check BA to see if Turretinfan responded to the post I put up today in the old Rhology thread; but alas, as yet, no response…but, I did see activity in this thread for the first time.
Before proceeding, I must say that I have learned a few things that one should be cognizant of when posting on this blog; as such, I shall try to limit my response to but one issue at a time; you posted:
GB:>> Huh?
Read the context. The point is that Jesus is superior to the angels and superior to the OT prophets. So, contrary to your assertion, this text shows that God does, in fact, make a distinction between messengers.
It also draws a greater distinction. What makes Christ superior is that Christ is God Himself in flesh. Do mere prophets uphold all things by the word of (their) power?
Chapter 1:
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.>>
Me: Shahiroz in her post (right or wrong) does point to a distinction of degree, but not necessarily of kind; I do not think you have addressed this in your response.
Further, a strict reading of Hebrews (the way the Arians have always read it) yields a clear demarcation between the God who spoke to the fathers, and “His Son, whom He [God] appointed, and THROUGH (dia) whom also He made the world”
Hebrews chapter 3 reiterates that the Son (also called the apostle and high priest) was “appointed”; and appointed by whom? Well, he was appointed by the ONE who is “builder of all things” (i.e. the same ONE who “appointed” the Son).
The Son who was appointed by the ONE, and the Son built “the house”; yet, and this importantly, “every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.”
Once more: who built “the house”? And, who is the “builder of all things”?
Grace and peace,
David
Me: Shahiroz in her post (right or wrong) does point to a distinction of degree, but not necessarily of kind; I do not think you have addressed this in your response.
This is an assertion on your part, not an argument.
Shahiroz is putting Jesus on a par with the other prophets of Allah, yet she's using Hebrews as part of her argument. Her argument is not that there is a "distinction of degree, but that there is none at all. These are her exact words and the exact words of one of her sources; ‘We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers Rasuls).’”
There is certainly a distinction in kind here once we see the whole text of Hebrews, which she chose to invoke, because the Son is fundamentally unlike the prophets and angels and is in every way superior to them.
Further, a strict reading of Hebrews (the way the Arians have always read it) yields a clear demarcation between the God who spoke to the fathers, and “His Son, whom He [God] appointed, and THROUGH (dia) whom also He made the world”
Why is Arianism determinative of the text's meaning? Oh, that's right, because as a Romanist, you deny the clarity and perspicuity of Scripture and require Nicea to inform Scripture in order to arrive at your Trintarianism. This statement advertises more about your rule of faith than what the text says. It strikes me, reading this short and inadequate response, David,that in your desire to repudiate Protestantism, you'll not only throw us under the bus, you'll scortch the whole earth and take Scripture with you too.
Here is the text in Greek:
1:1 polumerwV kai polutropwV palai o qeoV lalhsaV tois patrasin en toiV profhtaiV ep escatou twn hmerwn toutwn elalhsen hmin en uiw
1:2 on eqhken klhronomon pantwn di ou kai epoihsen touV aiwnaV
There is no particle for "his" Son, so the Arian infers "a" Son is convertible with "a" god, as they render 1 John 1:1.
The text is saying:. God having spoken in the prophets is the same God speaking through the Son. The essential essence of the Son is in view, and he is called God in 1:8, not "a" god, but "the" God, proV de ton uion o qronoV sou o qeoV eiV ton aiwna | [tou aiwnoV] | tou aiwnoV | kai h rabdoV thV euquthtoV rabdoV thV basileiaV | autou | sou |.
He is even called the exact, representation of (God's) being. If "a" lesser sort of god was in view, David, then how could that god be the exactrepresenation of the being of God? This is even one of the instances of "hypostaseos" being used, eg. substance, that which makes a thing what it is.
Then of course,we have 1:8, which refers to "the" God, not "a" God and only have one meaning, which is a direct defeater for the Arians. This is followed by a quote from Psalm 102, which can only have reference to YHWH, the Eternal Creator Himself. If you noticed, I quoted 2 whole chapters, not the prologue alone.
I realize exegesis isn't a strong point in Catholic apologetics, but you could at least make the effort.
It's nice to see you take the side of Muslims and Arians in order to score points against Protestantism. Good job, that's a real timesaver. I'll be sure to let TF know to keep that in mind.
It's nice to see you take the side of Muslims and Arians in order to score points against Protestantism. Good job, that's a real timesaver.
Seriously, David. You are going to defend the assertions of someone who denies Christ's divinity??
I'm not surprised that you as a Catholic would do so, I'm just surprised you would be so obvious about it.
Carrie,
You are overlooking something. Shahiroz takes a sort of pantheistic or perhaps panentheistic view and asserts Christ's divinity in much the same way that Jehovah's witnesses might assert Jesus' divinity.
She does actually deny Christ's divinity (because she reduces divinity to something sub-divine), but she does not recognize that.
The bottom line is that she does not follow the teachings of Jesus, who called men to repentence and faith in him alone.
She's from a different sect of Islam than the one with which we usually interact. Her sect esoterically (rather than grammatically-historically) interprets the Koran, which gives the document not just a nose of wax, but an infinitely malleable face of wax.
I'm not sure whether she would even accept the hadith.
-Turretinfan
She does actually deny Christ's divinity (because she reduces divinity to something sub-divine), but she does not recognize that.
I realized that her denial of Christ's divinity was a bit twisted, but it is a denial none the less. And if David wants to consider himself a true follower of Christ, he should realize this as well.
Carrie, Gene, and TF,
If it is your intent to create yet another string of mud-slinging responses, well, I want no part of it; my time is much to precious to waste responding to comments like these:
>> Why is Arianism determinative of the text's meaning? Oh, that's right, because as a Romanist…>>
Nice…
>>…in your desire to repudiate Protestantism, you'll not only throw us under the bus, you'll scortch the whole earth and take Scripture with you too.>>
Nice…
>> I realize exegesis isn't a strong point in Catholic apologetics, but you could at least make the effort.>>
Nice…
>> It's nice to see you take the side of Muslims and Arians in order to score points against Protestantism. Good job, that's a real timesaver.>>
Indeed nice…
>> Seriously, David. You are going to defend the assertions of someone who denies Christ's divinity??
I'm not surprised that you as a Catholic would do so, I'm just surprised you would be so obvious about it.>>
Nice…
>> Her sect esoterically (rather than grammatically-historically) interprets the Koran, which gives the document not just a nose of wax, but an infinitely malleable face of wax.>>
Nice half-truth…you have studied Ismailism for how long?
>> I realized that her denial of Christ's divinity was a bit twisted, but it is a denial none the less. And if David wants to consider himself a true follower of Christ, he should realize this as well.>>
Nice…
I am so tempted to respond in kind, but I have noticed too many times in the past that when I have done so the accusations fly, completely ignoring the precursors.
"And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?”
If it is your intent to create yet another string of mud-slinging responses
I'm not trying to sling mud, David, just very confused by your comments here as a professing Christian. But since I have always found the courting of Muslims by Catholics as indictative of Catholicism's slide towards a more universalistic gospel, I wasn't completely surprised.
Perhaps my perception was wrong, but I was not intending to jab.
Dear Gene,
Pleased to make your acquaintance. We have not yet met. I posted my response to Rhology…to respond to his enquiry. Please follow the other posts so I don’t have to repeat myself. I’m not into arguing with anyone. This is my understanding and I am simply an individual no authority on the subject.
God makes no distinction between Messengers:
ME:“This is a Quranic teaching. I think the Quran, if you accept the idea that the Quran’s teaching is in progression, to that of the Bible, like I do, then you can understand this. Though Jesus Christ’s Godness is portrayed more then his manness, He is both. In the case of other prophets their manness is portrayed more than their Godness, however they are still a manifestation of God. Also there is no distinction, however, there is still God's preferred Prophets that He holds at greater esteem.
God DOESN’T NEED TO MANIFEST he does this for us…and there are times His Godness is needed and there are times when His manness is needed. Remember-Arabia was worshipping 360 Idols as Gods at the time-including those of Abraham and Mary/Jesus…I think God manifested his manness more to demonstrate monotheism better…they got it, all right…the monotheism that is…but the majority also only got that Muhammad is only a man.
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; Hebrew 3:1-5
Huh?
Read the context. The point is that Jesus is superior to the angels and superior to the OT prophets. So, contrary to your assertion, this text shows that God does, in fact, make a distinction between messengers.
It also draws a greater distinction. What makes Christ superior is that Christ is God Himself in flesh. Do mere prophets uphold all things by the word of (their) power?
ME:I used the word messengers because there are different types of prophets…in Arabic the word Rasul is used to signify those prophets…the other type of prophet is nabi…nabi is first used in the OT for Abraham as I understand it. Let’s proceed:
:What is the difference between Rasul and Nabi ?
:1. All prophets are Nabi.
2. Some prophets (nabi) are messengers (Rasul).
1. A Rasul was a prophet of God who is given a new Shariat (law) from Him. And a Nabi also a prophet of Allah, but he was not given any new Shariat and followed the shariat of previous Rasul. Sheikh Mufid, a great scholar of Islam writes in his book, Awa’il al-Maqalat, “every messenger is a prophet [Nabi], but not every Prophet is a Rasul [Apostle]. All Rasules were Nabi but all Nabis were not Rasuls.
2. A Prophet is always a Nabi by birth, but a prophet becomes Rasul when he officially receives the post and declares it. For example, Muhammad was Nabi by birth, but became Rasul when he officially got and delivered the message at the age of 40.
3. The Rasul [Apostle] receives the message in many different manners such as, vision during sleep, direct communication with angels when he is awake. i.e., he can see and speak to the angels during communication of Divine message. But the Nabi [prophet] differs from the Rasul in that he does not see the angels when awake but sees during sleep.
4. The Rasul is higher in rank than a Nabi.
5. Out of 25 Prophets mentioned in the Holy Quran, or among 124000 Nabis, Five were Rasul, and are are further called Ulu l-azm prophets, meaning those who possess a quality of determination and firmness.
The six Rasuls and Ulul-azm Prophets are:
0 – Adam
1 - Noah
2 - Abraham
3 - Moses
4 – Jesus Christ
5 – Muhammad
It also draws a greater distinction. What makes Christ superior is that Christ is God Himself in flesh. Do mere prophets uphold all things by the word of (their) power?
Chapter 1:
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
7And of the angels He says,
"WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE."
8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9"YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS."
10And,
"YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END."
13But to which of the angels has He ever said,
"SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET"?
14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?
Chapter 2:
1For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
4God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
5For He did not subject to angels the world to come, concerning which we are speaking.
6But one has testified somewhere, saying,
"WHAT IS MAN, THAT YOU REMEMBER HIM?
OR THE SON OF MAN, THAT YOU ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HIM?
7"YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS;
YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR,
AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
8YOU HAVE PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET "
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
9But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.
11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12saying,
"I WILL PROCLAIM YOUR NAME TO MY BRETHREN,
IN THE MIDST OF THE CONGREGATION I WILL SING YOUR PRAISE."
13And again,
"I WILL PUT MY TRUST IN HIM "
And again,
"BEHOLD, I AND THE CHILDREN WHOM GOD HAS GIVEN ME."
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
THEN, we have the text you cited. You can't cite from chapter 3 without what comes before it, and the text before it says not that Christ was merely "divine," but that He is the exact representation of God's nature, that He is worshipped by the angels, etc. He is,therefore God incarnate.
ME: I have no problem with Christ being divine, or Jesus, the man, was a representative of God. But it stops there.
S: This is crucial. The Jews did not kill Him…God took Him up. I know this is tough and maybe even something difficult to accept…but can you atleast agree that this reading is possible of the verse..
Which verse? The Bible is clear on this. Merely quoting the Qu'ran simply begs the question in favor of the Qu'ran over the Bible. Why should we favor the Qu'ran here, when it's the Qu'ran that says that the Bible is true. You can't have it both ways.
ME: Regarding Christ’s death and crucifixion you have to read the previous posts and PART C, my response letter to Rhology. If after that you don’t see it…I’m sorry…I do…and I pray one day you will too…Yes as clear as it appears, some still got it wrong, granted not many and their philosophy in general was flawed but they did get the wrong message… “There are also several historical sources other than the Bible and the Qur'an which confirm that many of the early Christians did not believe that Jesus died on the cross...The Cerinthians and later the Basilidians, for example, who were among the first of the early Christian communities, denied that Jesus was crucified...The Carpocratians, another early Christian sect, believed that it was not Jesus who was crucified, but another in his place...”
(Ata'ur-Rahim M, Thomson A. Jesus, Prophet of Islam. London. Ta-Ha, 1996 (revised edition). p47.)
Christ has the breath of life and can create in exactly the same way God creates: the word for create (khalaqa) refers to creating something from nothing, an act which only God can perform:
1. Nothing you say here demonstrates that Christ was not put to death by the Jews, unless you think that we believe God Himself can die.
ME: Please see previous points.
2. Apropos 1, Christianity does not teach that Christ died as to His divinity. Rather, we affirm He died with respect to His humanity.
.Christians also believe that Jesus is a human and God is inside him.
Wrong!
The Christian doctrine is that, in the Incarnation, Christ is fully God and fully man. Christ has a human soul. We do not affirm that the divine part of Christ is also His soul, as you say that He is a man with God inside of Him. That is sort of Apolinarianism.Apollinarianism was the heresy taught by Apollinaris the Younger, bishop of Laodicea in Syria about 361. He taught that the Logos of God, which became the divine nature of Christ, took the place of the rational human soul of Jesus and that the body of Christ was a glorified form of human nature. In other words, though Jesus was a man, He did not have a human mind but that the mind of Christ was solely divine. Apollinaris taught that the two natures of Christ could not coexist within one person. His solution was to lessen the human nature of Christ.
ME: may not be clear in my explanation…it is too complicated to explain how God manifests, I was being simplistic in my language, and you can call me guilty of that but and I will be more careful but…I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT JESUS’S SOUL BEING REPLACED BY ANYTHING nor would I ever say that. I don’t believe God was made flesh in the literal sense. That’s wrong. I do believe Jesus Christ was the manisfestation of God in His Day, and Muhammad in His. The whole concept of God would take a thesis to discuss. I simply don’t have the time.
Apollinarianism was condemned by the Second General Council at Constantinople in 381.
Read the Creed of Chalcedon:
We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body(25) consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood(26); in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood(27); one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures,(28) inconfusedly, unchangeably(29), indivisibly, inseparably(30); the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.
All broadly Christian groups holding an orthodox Christology, Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox affirm this Council. The only difference is that we ascribe varying levels of authority to it. The Orthodox include it simply as part of Holy Tradition. Catholicism gives it infallibly binding authority. Protestantism esteems it as the greatest summary of Christological orthodoxy ever written but denies it is infallibly binding on the conscience.
3. Apropos 2, when Christ died, He died as to His humanity. God cannot die, therefore, as to His divinity He did not die. His human soul is forever and inextricably united to His divinity in a single, unique person. This is called the hypostatic union. Aside from those who affirm the descent into hell, the rest of us affirm that at no time was Christ separated from the Father, for it is impossible, due to the impenetration of the 3 Persons of the Trinity, for the Son and Father to be separated. Rather, He entered the presence of the Father in heaven/paradise. The Resurrection was physical and bodily and vindicated Him.
Indeed, the Son has never been separated from the Father or Spirit, for God is atemporal and nonspatial. It is impossible to separate the 3 Persons of the Holy Trinity, for it is not possible to physically separate nonspatial entities that impenetrate.
Jesus said I am not God and did miracles with permission of God.
Wrong. To take just two instances: John 8:24 and John 13:19. "I am (he) corresponds to parallel statements in texts like Isaiah 41:4 and many others in Isaiah in which God Himself is speaking. Look these up for yourself.
And these claims are not unique to Joh. In Luke 5:17-26 and 7:36-49 where Jesus freely forgives people of their sins, “the leadership complains that he is claiming to do something only God can do. … He is claiming to make himself equal with God. (Bock, Jesus According to Scripture, 605.) The only one who is equal with God is God.
ME:
a. I’m sorry I don’t want to argue for the sake of arguement.
b. I accept Christ is Gods manifestation…but for what its worth I learned that from Islam not Christianity.
c. Please don’t assume what I believe, ask me.
d. There is one God-Jesus and Muhammad were manifestations of God….nothing more nothing less.
Thank you for your time. And forgive my spelling and grammar misakes that may occur from writing in haste.
Shahiroz
Dear Turretinfan,
Thank you for your contribution. However, I would very much appreciate it if you don't assume what I believe when posting. Please ask me first. Or if you do than please don't do it on a public forum.
1. I am not Pantheistic.
2. I am Monotheistic.
3. I don't believe God manifested at one point in time only or only two for that matter.
4. I do believe in an esoteric interpretation of the Quran but that in no way annhialates the literal meaning of the Quran both are true.
5. It is irrelevant to my understanding of God or Christ what happened to Jesus 2000+ years ago, whether he died on the cross or not...God is, Christ is, Jesus is no more. The same is true of any past manifestation of God.
6. Yes I belong to a sect different than Sunni Islam. However, I just want to reiterate please do not in any way associate what I say with the sect.
7. These are partial statements and in no way complete
8. They are simply my personal understanding and personal thoughts and the results of my personal search as an indvidual. So my understanding could be wrong or portrayed wrong.
Thank you for your time,
Shahiroz
Dear Carrie,
We have not yet met. Pleased to make your acquaintance. Just want to state three things to you so there is no misunderstanding.
1. I am not a pantheist, I am a monotheist.
2. What I am discussing is my personal view only and I am simply a student.
3. Yes, I do believe Christ is divine.
Thank you for your time,
Shahiroz
We have not yet met. Pleased to make your acquaintance.
Hi Shahiroz!
Thanks for stopping by. I don't really want to get too involved in this conversation as others here are better equipped (and I did not follow all of the earlier conversation on the other post). However, I do want to advise you that David Waltz as a Roman Catholic does not represent Christianity, and if he has in some way assured you that your belief in Jesus AND Muhammad is consistent with God's revelation, then he has seriously mislead you.
As far as your comments, you said Yes, I do believe Christ is divine to which I answer, no, you do not believe Christ is "divine" as I believe and as Christ has revealed himself through the Bible.
Christ is not a "manifestation" of God, he IS God. Christ while on earth was 100% man and 100% God and Christ is part of the Holy Trinity. From the London Baptist Confession:
"In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )"
Christ IS God and he is the only path to salvation. Muhammad is not a prophet of God, he is a false prophet. If you are a true follower of Christ, you must acknowledge that Christ is fully God, you must have faith alone in Christ for forgiveness of your sins and your salvation, and you must understand that Muhammad is a false prophet.
Carrie and others,
Carrie wrote:
"Thanks for stopping by. I don't really want to get too involved in this conversation as others here are better equipped (and I did not follow all of the earlier conversation on the other post). However, I do want to advise you that David Waltz as a Roman Catholic does not represent Christianity, and if he has in some way assured you that your belief in Jesus AND Muhammad is consistent with God's revelation, then he has seriously mislead you."
S:With all due respect, neither Roman Catholic nor Baptist is a true representative of Christianity for me. As for David's understanding of Jesus and Muhammad being consistent with God's revealation or not is not for me to judge, only God knows.
Carrie wrote:
"As far as your comments, you said Yes, I do believe Christ is divine to which I answer, no, you do not believe Christ is "divine" as I believe and as Christ has revealed himself through the Bible."
S:I have no way of knowing how you believe Christ is divine. However, with respect, I don't think you can claim to know what I believe – and as for articulating the way in which God manifests – it is not easy –But to clarify, I don't accept the idea that God was made flesh.
Carrie wrote:
"Christ is not a "manifestation" of God, he IS God. Christ while on earth was 100% man and 100% God and Christ is part of the Holy Trinity. From the London Baptist Confession:"
S: In my understanding, "Christ is a manifestation of God" is a true statement and "Christ IS God" is also a true statement. However, what follows "Christ while on earth was 100% man and 100% God" is not a true statement. Christ/Logos/God is not made flesh. God IS, Christ/The Word/The Light/Logos IS. Christ "manifested" Himself fully in the form of the historical man Jesus. To associate human attributes to Christ is an unforgivable sin in Islam and reduces Christ to something sub-divine.
Carrie wrote:
""In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )""
S:Thanks for sharing your belief with me. Mine is very simple. "There is NO God but God and Muhammad is His Messenger."
Carrie wrote:
"Christ IS God and he is the only path to salvation. Muhammad is not a prophet of God, he is a false prophet. If you are a true follower of Christ, you must acknowledge that Christ is fully God, you must have faith alone in Christ for forgiveness of your sins and your salvation, and you must understand that Muhammad is a false prophet."
S:Absolutely, Christ IS God and knowing Christ/Logos is the only path to salvation. Muhammad (in my conviction) in the Quran is a prophet of God, and a manifestation of God in the same way Jesus Christ is. Muhammad's light is God.
We were already taught how God manifests, by Jesus Christ. God does not need to reiterate the same message again. Instead God in the Quran points us to the precursors and their Books and clearifies the misconceptions.
Finally, I do acknowledge Christ is fully God. However, I refuse to accept the historical man Jesus is fully God or that Jesus is God made flesh.
Re: "You must have faith..."-Please don't tell me what I must do in regards to my faith. I have faith in God, and God can manifest in any form and is not limited to one space and time. I look to The Manifestation of God for the forgiveness of sins and for my salvation.
Carrie wrote:
"and you must understand that Muhammad is a false prophet."
S:
1. You can say that. It's not going to change the TRUTH. Many denied Christ too. It didn't change the Truth.
2. Muhammad (in my conviction) is not only a TRUE Prophet of God, but God's manifestation in the same way Jesus Christ was.
3. Re: "you must understand" – With respect, I have to ask: Are you divinely inspired? Are you an Islamic scholar? Are you a historian? Have you read the Quran in it's original language and the large corpus of Shia and Sunni doctrines and traditions? If not, then please refrain from making such statements of false authority.
4. And if you still think you know this for a surity somehow, I challenge you to prove it. Have you read the Quran? If not, consider the possibility that you may be rejecting a manifestation of God without knowing for sure He is not…and then what are you going to answer Christ in Heaven, when HE says I did return BUT YOU called me a false prophet and rejected my manifestation as Muhammad.
Thank you for your time,
Shahiroz
Carrie and Shahiroz,
Since I was specifically mentioned (derogatorily, of course) by Carrie in her response to you, I do not feel that I am to be excluded from this specific exchange. Carrie wrote:
>> Thanks for stopping by. I don't really want to get too involved in this conversation as others here are better equipped (and I did not follow all of the earlier conversation on the other post). However, I do want to advise you that David Waltz as a Roman Catholic does not represent Christianity, and if he has in some way assured you that your belief in Jesus AND Muhammad is consistent with God's revelation, then he has seriously mislead you.>>
Me: Obviously, Carrie is making the claim that Catholics are not Christian. Any person with the slightest knowledge of post-1st century history can say with confidence that such a claim is absurd. The great Ecumenical Creeds of the 4th and 5th centuries that have been recommended to you by some posters here in this blog were forged by Catholics. Many of the key elements of the fundamental theology of the bishops who assisted in forming those Creeds have been jettisoned by Carrie and many of her friends here at BA; but they are still embraced by Catholic Christians today. And further, the particular form of Christianity which Carrie and her friends embrace had no existence what so every until the 16th century (as many of their own historians admit).
Carrie’s claim that Catholics are not Christian is not anything new to the historical scene. The same claim has been made by dozens (probably hundreds) of dissenting sects throughout the course of history to our day, beginning in the second century. Those who today stand with Carrie in this claim (i.e. that Catholics are not Christian) include such diverse sects as Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, 7th-Day Adventists, Reformed and Southern Baptists, Missouri and Wisconsin Synod Lutherans, OPC and PCA Presbyterians, Oneness-Pentecostals, and dozens of other sects. A word of advice: I would be very wary of any sect which claims that historic, Catholic Christianity is not Christian…
Grace and peace,
David
A word of advice: I would be very wary of any sect which claims that historic, Catholic Christianity is not Christian…
Shahiroz,
True followers of Christ look to God's revelation in the Bible to determine truth. Historical doctrines and councils can guide us, but those workings of men are only as good as they are consistent with God's written revelation. The Roman Catholic Church is neither consistent with the Bible or consistent with all of history.
Bottom line, don't trust David. He clearly has motives that are not in your best interest.
Shahiroz,
Upon further explanation of your position, you do indeed reveal a Unitarian understanding of God, what we call "Modalism".
Especially when you say:
I do acknowledge Christ is fully God. However, I refuse to accept the historical man Jesus is fully God or that Jesus is God made flesh.
Also, you said:
To associate human attributes to Christ is an unforgivable sin in Islam and reduces Christ to something sub-divine.
A few questions for you, if you would be so kind:
1) Why does the idea of God taking on human attributes (aka a human nature) necessarily make Him sub-divine? Please support your statement with Scripture.
2) If Christ is the manifestation of God (as opposed to a divine person, as Christianity teaches), what is Christ doing when He prays to the Father? Is He praying to Himself? Why does He not address Himself as "Dear Jesus Christ, here is my prayer..."?
3) At Christ's baptism, Who spoke from heaven? And why did the voice say "...My beloved Son..."?
Thanks!
Peace,
Rhology
Carries says,
>>The Roman Catholic Church is neither consistent with the Bible or consistent with all of history.
Bottom line, don't trust David. He clearly has motives that are not in your best interest.>>
Me: For Shahiroz -
Protestants (especially Calvinists) are “neither consistent with the Bible or consistent with all of history.”
“Bottom line, don't trust” Carrie. She “clearly has motives that are not in your best interest.”
In the name of our Great God and Savior,
David
Dear everyone,
Thank you all for your suggestions and opinions. However, I trust and have faith only in God, His Manifestation, Scripture and the Holy Spirit speaking to my Soul and Intellect. For I know, with God in heart and mind, there is no way I can be led astray.
Shahiroz
Shahiroz,
I ask you not to give so much room to the lies of the Devil that would lead you to say something like that.
Proverbs 16:25 - There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.
We must put our trust in and take our convictions from what God has revealed. He does not speak in a muffled voice, nor does He contradict Himself.
John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am (He) you will die in your sins.
Jesus tells us that we will die in our sins unless we believe the truth about Him. I hope you will reconsider and repent.
Peace,
Rhology
Dear Rhology,
Good to have you back…it’s very refreshing talking to you for the simple reason that you speak with respect. Thank you.
I’ve been studying world religions since I was sixteen, a good 20+ years, and love the subject but I don’t like arguing with people…why can’t we all co-exist and learn from each other without egotistically assuming we are on the right page and everyone else is not. The best guide is God. Our job should be to share, the rest God will take care of. For if we are wrong we now hold the responsibility of leading someone astray. I respond to your questions in that spirit:
Rhology wrote:
“Upon further explanation of your position, you do indeed reveal a Unitarian understanding of God, what we call "Modalism".”
S:
1. Our own mind creates explanations when we don’t understand…the result new labels and definitions. God, is beyond understanding, what we think God is NOT, and what God is we can not think. God IS. Our job is to know God not understand God.
2. Monotheism: Simply, There is ONE God. Forget the term monotheism…IN FACT there is ONE God.
3. The attributes of God are infinite and absolute.
4. God is the creator of everything…and everyone.
5. God IS Love. His Love IS without bounds.
6. God IS therefore everybody’s. Listens to everyones prayers. He has said He will listen. So anyone who is faithfully searching with TRUE intent He will lead…
7. Further if a people is going astray and need saving, God in His mercy will guide them too…He created them, His job is sustainer.
8. The world has been in existence for billions of years and for God to only manifest once to one people is absurd…He no doubt manifested for every people at many times.
9. I can’t imagine God any other way.
10. If you can, then our definition of God varies so much that we should end this dialogue right now. I’m certain however, we will agree with the above…for ultimately God resides within each of us. For there is only ONE God.
Especially when you say:
I do acknowledge Christ is fully God. However, I refuse to accept the historical man Jesus is fully God or that Jesus is God made flesh.
Also, you said:
To associate human attributes to Christ is an unforgivable sin in
Islam and reduces Christ to something sub-divine.
A few questions for you, if you would be so kind:
Rhology writes:
“1) Why does the idea of God taking on human attributes (aka a human nature) necessarily make Him sub-divine? Please support
your statement with Scripture.”
S: Back to: There is only ONE God. Don’t sway from this no matter what. Not swaying from this is the only way to assure yourself TRUE salvation. Be suspect of anything that sways from this. Swaying from this is what leads one astray. This is taught in every Religion. I can provide you with the texts if you like but for now I will stick to only The Bible and Quran. This is the 1st Commandment. “Thou shalt have no other gods but Me.'(OT Exodus 20:3) And again, " 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul and with all thy mind.'(NT Matthew 22:37) And again, “Say: He, God, is One.”(Quran 112:1). So God manifests...He doesn’t become something. There is nothing else. There is only God. And creation/destruction is also Within God. However, creation is not the essence. “That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.” (NT Acts 27-28). And indeed We have created man, and We know what his ownself whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein. (Quran 50:16)
2) If Christ is the manifestation of God (as opposed to a divine person, as Christianity teaches), what is Christ doing when He prays to the Father? Is He praying to Himself? Why does He not address Himself as "Dear Jesus Christ, here is my prayer..."?
S: Christ is not a Manifestation of God as opposed to divine…Christ is a Manifestation of God and Christ is Divine. I need to clearify something. Christ and “The Light of God” is the same thing…Jesus, is the name of the historical man God took manifestation in. The Light shone through Jesus. Now prayer…is a very complex subject…Christ acted through the historical Jesus as an example for us. The Historical Jesus prayed to God.
3) At Christ's baptism, Who spoke from heaven? And why did the voice say "...My beloved Son..."?
S: Again a complex question…but let me try to respond. I would say At Jesus’ baptism, not Christ’s. Christ, the Light, is God, is divine, and does not need baptizing. The baptism accounts vary. I think Jesus Christ alone heard “the voice”.
“After Jesus is baptised, the narrative describes the heavens as opening, the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and a voice announcing that Jesus is God's beloved Son and that God is well pleased with him. The opening heavens echo the beginning of the Book of Ezekiel. Some ancient manuscripts read opened up to him rather than just opened up, suggesting that this event is more private, and so explaining why the crowds that Luke argues were present apparently did not notice.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_of_Jesus)
Finally, regarding Why did the voice say “My Beloved Son”? Because. Jesus Christ, is the one He chose to manifest Himself through. If today He chose to manifest through you, then He likely would say the same to you…for we are all God’s beloved children.
Hope that helps.
Peace,
Shahiroz
Dear Rhology,
I'm disappointed by this post.
I ask you not to give so much room to the lies of the Devil that would lead you to say something like that.
S:It is sad to hear such a statement from someone who claims to recognize Christ. Sorry, there is only room for God in my life. I pray to God, so He will guide me and protect me.
Proverbs 16:25 - There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.
S: I pray my truth is consistent with His will everyday. I’m sure He will guide me better then anyone else. Once again my faith is in God. Period.
We must put our trust in and take our convictions from what God has revealed. He does not speak in a muffled voice, nor does He contradict Himself.
John 8:24 - I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am (He) you will die in your sins.
Jesus tells us that we will die in our sins unless we believe the truth about Him. I hope you will reconsider and repent.
S: I believe HE is HE, you believe HE is HE…why do you keep bringing the same thing up. I can’t believe, once again, someone who claims to recognize Christ is asking me to repent for trusting HIM. I will only believe in the way God wants not any other.
Peace,
Shahiroz
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