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Monday, April 29, 2024

The Value of Roman Catholic Information Dump Apologetics

I don't keep up with the dynamics of Rome's defenders... however, these comments from a former staff apologist at Catholic Answers caught my attention. She writes about the method of excessive information that some apologists utilize when making their arguments: 

From the way a lot of Catholic apologists present evidence for the arguments they make, you’d think they have either facts or precedent on their side. A cursory skim of their materials will turn up a lot of references to Scripture, canon law, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. When I did apologetics reviews during my years as a professional apologist, I always knew I could safely allow my eyes to glaze over and read on autopilot when I got to the huge chunks of quotations from the Bible, the Church Fathers, and papal documents.

Why? Because apologists who used this method of arguing were not actually trying to persuade anyone to accept their conclusions. Rather, they were engaging in an information dump, intended to overwhelm audiences into accepting Catholic teaching on the sheer volume of evidence presented.

Occasionally, these information dumps backfired. Once, I was tasked with providing an alternative viewpoint to an essay that had “gone viral” on social media, igniting a firestorm of outrage at the position the author defended. When I dug into the piece, fact-checking its references, I was amused to note that the author had cited the Catechism incorrectly, and I took full advantage of that oversight in my rejoinder.

When apologists rely on information dumps to persuade their listeners, it’s all too easy for them to get lost in the weeds they’ve sown.
When I first began interacting with Rome's defenders, this method was often utilized in their presentations of Martin Luther or the Reformation. I remember specifically dealing with webpages that were filled with excessive despariging citations of either Luther or secondary sources buttressing their negative evaluations.  An interesting facet of these webpages was that often the material was pulled entirely from secondary sources... "Luther said x or y..." (in English) then a reference to either a German or Latin source was provided (if at all), and in some instances, the actual secondary source was given.  Perhaps the most egregious webpage I have ever encountered is Luther, Exposing the Myth. I spent quite a while looking up every quote and every reference (my results found here).  It was obvious many of Rome's defenders did not actually read the contexts of the works they were citing. 

This ex-Catholic Answers apologist makes a good point: some apologists use excessive information dumps intended to overwhelm a reader into accepting their arguments.  I would only add that while Rome's defenders are often guilty of this, I've seen the same method utilized on both sides of the Tiber. In a weird twist of irony, recently I came across someone on my side of the Tiber doing a "Luther was awful" information dump... and then was informed the content was cut-and-pasted from a Roman Catholic website! 

Granted, I suspect I have engaged in information dumps from time to time. However, I say the majority of what I've posted over the years is simply untangling the mess that Rome's defenders make with historical data. Looking up all the references they spew out takes much time, energy, and sometimes... money. 

I suspect this former staff apologist from Catholic Answers is still Roman Catholic (her comments cited above are now over two years old). I do though appreciate her candor in evaluating those on her own side. 

21 comments:

  1. Could you write an article on the latest convert to Rome: Candace Owens?

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  2. Has Candace Owens told her story anywhere? Candace is already famous, so like some converts, she doesn't need a conversion story to become popular or famous... if she has though given her story somewhere, it would be interesting to hear.

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  3. If you watch her interaction with Ally Beth Stuckey and her husband ( who is Roman Catholic), you can see that Candace has a lot of bad information about the Reformation and what it stood for.

    Candace thought the Reformation taught that there were no Christians before 1517. She admitted she struggled with some things in Roman Catholicism, (at that time), but basically, it seems she gave in because of her love for her husband and wanting to be unified in her marriage; because she loves him and was impressed with his character, etc.

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  4. The discussion debate between Ally Beth Stuckey and Candace's husband. (Part 1)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EopEAQkAhJA

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  5. Your article is very true and good.

    They rely on the ignorance of Protestants, especially low church evangelicals - who are ignorant of church history (as I was, even though I had 2 courses in church history in seminary - it was not enough, IMO - I needed more on historical theology and how doctrine developed and more info on the early church fathers)

    What is surprising to me is that former "Reformed" folks find their arguments compelling - for example, "The Called to Communion" former Reformed folks.

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  6. Fortunately, the Lord gave me patience and perseverance in researching the claims of Rome over the last 28 years - since 1996 - when one of my best friends became Roman Catholic - Rod Bennett.

    Your web-site along with Dr. White's material, debates, books, and William Webster and Triablogue and Turretinfan really helped.

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  7. Watch both part one and part two of Allie, Beth, Stuckey‘s discussion with Candace Owens husband, George farmer when you watch both of them you will see underneath why Candace eventually gave in.

    Allie, Beth, Stuckey did OK for a lay person, but she was unprepared to fully refute George farmers approach against Protestantism, which was filled with John Henry Newman type arguments.

    Gavin Ortlund had a good response to it as did Dr. White.

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  8. If you watch both parts 1 and 2 of the discussion between Alley Beth Stuckey and George Farmer (Candace Owen's husband) - On Candace's You Tube channel, you can kind of guess why Candace would eventually convert. (IMO, mostly because of her love for her husband, but also partly because she was unprepared to deal with the typical RC apologetic arguments, using the usual John Henry Newman - Scott Hahn - Jimmy Akin - Bryan Cross type arguments)

    Gavin Ortlund had a good response and also Dr. White, but from what I remember, they were both not a full complete response to the details of both parts 1 and 2.

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  9. Part 2 of Alley Beth Stuckey vs. George Farmer

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kgjxou-lF0

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  10. Thanks Ken. I only have a cursory familiarity of Candace through her work with the Daily Wire. I have not listened to her that much. She's seems to be insightful on race related issues.

    I had forgotten about Dr. White's response to Candance Owens... so to the anonymous person was that left the comment that began this, track down what Ken has mentioned from Dr. White and Gavin Ortland. Their responses are far superior than anything I could put together.



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  11. With Catholics, I have often, even typically, engaged in "substantiation dumps," almost all from valid Catholic sources, partly because experience attests to them not following links to such, and repeatedly arguing what has been refuted.

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  12. Is this a good source Ken or James?:

    https://www.amazon.com/MacArthur-Bible-Commentary-John/dp/0785250662

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  13. I do not have that source. I assume it has some good information in it.

    Recently I taught through Dr. MacArthur's book, Twelve Ordinary Men. I found he had some unique insights that I found helpful. On the other hand, some of his points seemed to be a stretch, and some of his points required better documentation.

    For an entire commentary on the Bible, I would utilize a book like this as one among many other commentaries, particularly being aware of Dr. MacArthur's underlying dispensationalism.

    JS

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  14. How dare you or anyone else read from John MacArthur's books! Shame of you for promoting a man who is steeped in corruption and isn't academically sound!

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  15. What? Any anonymous comment on the internet is directing me what to do??? I'll get right to it! Yawn.

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  16. This article provides examples as to why MacArthur should not be used in study and research: https://www.tektonics.org/lp/macarthur.php

    I know the author personally, and he told me he has changed his mind on this pastor since the article was written.

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  17. Hi Anonymous. I'm not a big fan of Dr. MacArthur. However, I do think it's interesting that you posted an article by someone that has changed their mind about him. Kudos to you for mentioning that. After teaching through one of Macarthur's books recently, I concur with the article when it says, "My greatest difficulty with MacArthur, however, has to do with his use of sources." Likewise, I found some difficulty with his sources. Overall, though, not really a big deal.

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  18. James, do you think that this is a good source to use?: https://www.amazon.com/Immanuel-John-Witmer/dp/0849913691

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  19. Why are you not a big fan of MacArthur? Also, if that is the case, why even bother with reading material by him?

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  20. Anonymous Anonymous said...
    Why are you not a big fan of MacArthur? Also, if that is the case, why even bother with reading material by him?


    Sigh... not being a "big fan" does not mean I'm the sort of person that will leave anonymous comments disparaging John MacArthur. Frankly, I do not read his books often, nor listen to him often. Other than his leanings towards dispensationalism, I don't really have any major problems with him. I don't read or listen to him because he typically does not address subjects I'm interested in.

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  21. Anonymous Anonymous said...
    James, do you think that this is a good source to use?: https://www.amazon.com/Immanuel-John-Witmer/dp/0849913691


    I'm not familiar with the author or the book. Sorry!

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