Lydia McGrew wrote: "One point that occurs to me is that if idolatry creeps into a Christian group or into the life of a Christian (or Jew, for that matter), it will do so in some way that can be explained away."
Benedict XVI praying to a statue of Mary. Looks like idolatry to me!
John Paul 2 and several other Roman Catholic priests bowing down to a statue of Mary and praying to her. Looks like idolatry to me!
Benedict XVI and John Paul 2 were not just poor uneducated peasants in Fatima, Portugal, but rather suppossedly the "infallible interpreter" of the whole "true" Christian Church.
A Roman Catholic may counter with, "they are just asking the real Mary in heaven to pray for them" and " they are only using the statues to help them visualize her. They are not really talking to the stone or plastic statue and they are not really bowing down to the stone or plastic or wood carving."
or "We can distinquish between dulia and hyperdulia and latria in our minds, and we don't give latria to Mary or the saints, when we pray to them."
or
"unless you have entered into that experience, you cannot judge it."
or
"Idolatry, occurs internally in the heart, primarily. Human beings can explain away idolatry in their hearts and minds, because human beings have a massive capacity for self-deception. Humans are skilled at rationalization and justify things within themselves. Someone has to consciously and deliberately choose to be committing idolatry in the heart. Someone has to consciously and deliberately choose to replace God in their prayers with Mary or St. Joseph or St. Teresa or St. Patrick, or else it isn't truly idolatry. It may be an extreme case of a lack of diligence, or spiritual laziness, but not idolatry."
"Do you think the apostle John was consciously and deliberately committing idolatry when he bowed down to the angel and was rebuked for it in Revelation 19:10 and 22:8-9?
"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. " Revelation 19:10
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, 9 but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” Revelation 22:8-9
See many past articles I have written on the issue of Roman Catholic Marian Piety and the bad witness it has given to Muslims for centuries, and continues to this day.
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-truly-blasphemous-prayer-to-mary-by.html
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2014/01/marian-dogmas-began-with-fiction-and.html
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/12/muslims-quoting-coptic-and-roman.html
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/08/church-converted-into-mosque.html
http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/09/witnessing-to-muslims-answering-son-of.html
James,
ReplyDeleteEver see a duck decoy? It's not a duck. It's just a graven image of a duck.
Dt 4:15 says that Moses did not see God on Mt. Horeb and therefore not to make an image of the invisible. Would that prohibition apply subsequent to the Incarnation? Jesus did come in the flesh, right?
Mary is not God, so how is making an image of her any more idolatrous than the statues on Mt. Rushmore?
Do Calvinists set up Nativity scenes at Christmas time? If yes, do they ever kneel and pray? Not to the plaster, wooden or clay figures of course.
Was the respect given to the bones of Joseph or Eliseus a form of idolatry? Even though God raised a dead man to life when he come in contact with those bones?
How about the veneration given the Ark, vessel or manna, Aaron's staff or tablets of the Law?
I, Ken wrote this article.
ReplyDeleteKen,
ReplyDeleteSo sorry. You get the credit/blame then.
As for John being told not to worship angels in revelation, yeah. There was a real danger of that in the hellenized early Church. It would not apply here though.
By the way, thanks for the Lydia stuff you found interesting. While I didn't see what you see, I did find her piece on God's timelessness to be mildly interesting. Have you read it? Seems to me that it could be problematic for the Calvinist view of election/reprobation prior to foreseen merits/demerits.
Statues for historical purposes are not necessarily wrong, like Mt. Rushmore. No one I know goes there and bows down in front of them and lights candles and says prayers to Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or Teddy Roosevelt.
ReplyDeleteThe problem is the statues and icons in a worship context. Benedict XVI and John Paul II were clearly doing worship / bowing/ proskunew and prayers to Mary.
I have no problem with pictures/icons for historical purposes or teaching purposes. The problem is when the RC or others bow in front of them and start talking to them and praying to them.
Where is the discussion about Piper's video about praying for his children's election?
ReplyDeleteat CtC ? I could not find it in the current discussions.
"Ever see a duck decoy? It's not a duck. It's just a graven image of a duck."
ReplyDeleteDo you ever bow down and pray to the duck decoy?
"Mary is not God, so how is making an image of her any more idolatrous than the statues on Mt. Rushmore?"
The baals and Asherah poles are not God, so how is making an image of them any more idolatrous than the statues on Mt. Rushmore?
Just like Ken quoted...some people are trying to explain away the idolatry. Also just like Ken commented...praying to those statues is in a context of worship. So it is idolatry. In Exodus 32:5, Aaron declared a feast day to the Lord. But God said it was idolatry. It never makes since to talk to someone else when God bids you to talk to Him. There is never a legitimate reason for praying to God through anyone or anything other than God.
ReplyDeleteTim Rudicil (aka odessaedisto)
Ken,
ReplyDeleteCreed Code Cult. Go back some days and scroll around.
People,
ReplyDeleteBowing means nothing. It can be done for a couple of reasons in the Bible. Lighting candles is not necessarily worship either. It is a prayer though.
Praying to those statues? Mary is not a statue, not the last time I checked anyway. Praying to her in front of a statue is not praying TO a statue.
Making an image of Mary is not making an image of Baal or some other demon god. Your prohibition is like a prohibition against, let's say, tattooing. A USMC Tattoo is not a pornographic one. The subject matter determines whether or not it is sinful.
You people all need to go to the Bible and read up on just WHO Mary is. Then start heeding the text that says all generations will call her blessed. Or the one where Jesus announces from the cross that she is mother to his disciples. Or the one that says the Dragon will make war on her and her children, those that keep the commandments of Christ.
Don't just read those passages like you read a grocery list. Read, pray and meditate as if your salvation depended on it.
We actually honor Mary more properly; a godly woman who was the mother of the Messiah. She was a virgin at the time of Messiah's birth (Matthew 1, Luke 1-2); but not afterward (Matthew 1:18, 25 - until - heos hou - and Matthew 12:46; 13:55-56)
ReplyDeleteBut not perpetually virgin, nor sinless, nor bodily assumed, nor immaculately concieved and not a mediatrix (a clear violation of 1 Tim. 2:5); and we should not pray or bow down to statues of her.
Yes, those photos show they are talking to and praying to statues. period. idolatry.
Or the one that says the Dragon will make war on her and her children, those that keep the commandments of Christ.
You think Revelation 12 is about Mary?
What about her pain in childbirth? verse 2
That shows she was virgin before, but afterward.
It goes against the "during" childbirth part - "before, during, and afterward" (I forget the Latin phrases; you know what I mean)
To claim Jesus just beamed out of Mary without breaking her hymen is Gnostic and denegrating to the humanity of Mary and Jesus. There is nothing sinful about that. She was clearly a virgin before the birth of Christ.
Rev. 12:2 and her pain (if that is Mary) shows she was normal and human and real, and shows the RC doctrine of "during the birth" - as wrong.
in partu (during birth), post partum (after birth)
ReplyDeleteare wrong
That shows she was virgin before, but NOT after the birth.
ReplyDeleteMary and Joseph had a normal sexual marriage, after the birth of Christ.
Creed, Code, Cult - Jason Stellman's blog
ReplyDeletepoint me to something more specific - his posts have 200 and 500 + comments and I don't have time to cull through them.
EA - good questions for Guy!
ReplyDelete"Mary is not a statue, not the last time I checked anyway. Praying to her in front of a statue is not praying TO a statue."
ReplyDeleteTwo questions here:
1) If you're not praying to a statue, then why not dispense with the statue? It's not like you have a reliable picture of what Mary looked like anyway.
2) If the true attitude and intention prayer is happening in the heart of the individual, then how do YOU know for sure that someone else is not praying TO the statue?
"Making an image of Mary is not making an image of Baal or some other demon god....The subject matter determines whether or not it is sinful."
ReplyDeleteEx. 20:4-5a
You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them
Premise A: Mary is in Heaven.
Premise B: A statue of Mary is an image made in the form or likeness of Mary.
If these premises are true then we can conclude that a statue of Mary is an image made in the form of something in Heaven.
God doesn't say don't worship the image. He says do not worship it OR bow down to it.
You say that Catholics do not worship the statue but you admit that Catholics bow to it.
See Matthew 15:3 for what Jesus says about this kind of thing.
EA,
ReplyDelete"If you're not praying to a statue, then why not dispense with the statue? It's not like you have a reliable picture of what Mary looked like anyway."
If you are thinking of your wife and kids, why do you need that photo of them on your desk or in your wallet?
And we do indeed have a reliable picture of her. The miraculous Image of Guadalupe should do for one. Also, she has appeared at Lourdes, Fatima, Rue de Bac, etc. etc. We have eye witness accounts.
"If you are thinking of your wife and kids, why do you need that photo of them on your desk or in your wallet?"
ReplyDeleteAgain, like the duck decoy analogy, we're not bowing to the pictures, nor directing prayer to them.
Is it to difficult for you to keep that simple distinction in mind?
Ken,
ReplyDeleteI googled and found this article for you.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/11/can-a-calvinist-pray-for-his-child-to-be-elect/
I am 80% sure Jerry walls addresses this on utube also.
As for CCC, be grateful that everything is in chronological order ( unlike Triabologue ).
EA,
ReplyDeleteAre you unaware that people bow down to kings and such in the Bible? For instance, Bathsheba before her son the king.
Bowing is a cultural thing. You are saying it is only religious.
"Are you unaware that people bow down to kings and such in the Bible?"
ReplyDeleteA non sequitar in that the prohibition that was referred to earlier (Ex. 20:5) is against bowing down to or worshiping an image made in the likeness or form of anything in heaven, on the earth, or under it, or in the sea.
Again, you seem unable to understand that simple distinction. I'm beginning to wonder if you're being deliberately obtuse.
It is clear, from the Scripture, that St. John had intended to adore the Angel. He said:
ReplyDeleteRevelation 19:10 Then aI fell at his feet to worship him.
Revelation 22:8. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things.
So, the error here was "worship". Obviously, St. John was overwhelmed by what he saw and mistook the Angel for our Lord. The Angel, knowing this, clarified the situation:
"I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
"for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God."
There was no error in humbling himself before the Angel. The error was in confusing the Angel for God.
Notice how, Joshua did the same thing before the Captain of the Angelic Host, but apparently did not confuse the Angel for God and was not admonished:
Joshua 5:14
And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?
We know that the Captain of the Angelic Host is St. Michael the Archangel:
Revelation 12:6-8King James Version (KJV)
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.