Here's another old post of Carrie's I just came across from the archives-
“It’s also possible for a person to die in God’s friendship even if the person didn’t consciously know God during life. Someone could, through no fault of their own, be unaware of God or not have ever been given sufficient evidence that they concluded God is true, through no fault of their own, and if they otherwise cooperated with his grace, then God won’t hold their ignorance of him against them. So, it’s possible for an atheist to be saved, it’s still through Jesus Christ and through God’s grace, but they can still die not knowing God and still be on their way to heaven as long as they otherwise cooperated with his grace.”This is justification by works alone, without faith, and contrary to Scripture.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." John 3:16-18Jimmy would also do well to read through Romans 1 before stating "Someone could, through no fault of their own, be unaware of God or not have ever been given sufficient evidence that they concluded God is true, through no fault of their own".
"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:18-20
How is Jimmy's answer qualitatively different than when James White has said on a few occasions that there are Catholics who are Christian because it's possible that they are trusting in Jesus alone for their salvation and not fully consciously going along with Catholic errors? In other words, they're saved in spite of being Catholic.
ReplyDeleteBecause they actively trust in Christ by faith. An atheist, by definition, doesn't even believe in Jesus to begin with.
ReplyDeleteIn this case "atheist" is broadly defined not as someone actively denying God's existence, but rather trying to seek out truth the best they can. If they're born into something like Communist China or Russia, the deck will be somewhat stacked against them since their default will be assuming no God.
ReplyDeleteThis is not to say anyone in error is given a free pass by any means, but that it's a very different thing to say someone in error is also fully culpable.
Yours is a variation of "the innocent native in Africa" conundrum. The answer is, there are no innocent natives in Africa, Communist China, or Russia. All humanity is condemned is sin because of Adam's sin.
ReplyDeleteThat's beside the point. The question is whether someone with less than full knowledge of Reformed Baptist theology can be *saved*. The answer seems to be yes, so the only question is how far off the Reformed Baptist mark can they be and still be saved.
ReplyDeleteJames, do we have something that Luther says about this subject? I can't recall him talking quite in the same way. He seems always more worried about the false teachers and about the average person living his piggish life in drunkenness or lack of knowledge of the basics of even the catechism or the Lord's prayer... Or else the pope, priests or the princes not doing their duties according to their callings, etc.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, our pastor encouraged us today to pray for the RC church and the enclave, that they may elect a pope who understands justification by faith. If you don't ask, you don't get, he said. :)
"conclave"
ReplyDeleteNick,
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you try dealing honestly with what other people are saying? You might end up with more satisfactory answers in that case.
I think that all RCs should just follow the traditions of the church in declaring Ex Ecclesia Nulla Sallus. Eastern Orthodox churches are able to hold fast to this holy tradition, why not Rome?
ReplyDeleteCatholic Answers Forums is filled with this inclusivistic stuff, where they boast about how "charitable/gentle" the modern RCC is towards other religions or how God would "never send a good Evangelical to Hell". I saw a debate between a RC and an atheist and the atheist was surprised by the RC giving a very inclusivistic answer.
If I became Pope next month, I would bring back Ex Ecclesia Nulla Sallus. I would attempt to convert leaders of other faiths, rather than look like a warm fuzzy "Universal Papa". If I did this, I wonder how many CAF people will call me an anti-Pope.
"For there is no respect of persons with God. For whosoever have sinned without the law, shall perish without the law; and whosoever have sinned in the law, shall be judged by the law." ....
ReplyDelete"For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves: Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness to them, and their thoughts between themselves accusing, or also defending one another, In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel."
.....
I don't mean to stir the waters, but I do need to ask. Is God constrained that he can only apply the sacrifice of Christ to those with an explicit knowledge of the Gospel? Is being able to hear the Gospel preached a condition on election?
ReplyDeleteThat is, there are no innocent natives in Africa, nor innocent atheists in communist China, nor innocent Christians in America, and they all deserve, of themselves, divine judgment to hell. If the latter are justified by grace, not of themselves but as the gift of God, then has God never given this free gift to the former two categories? Could he give this gift to the former two categories?
I'm not advocating for it, but it seems Inclusivism is still consistent with five-point Calvinism (or what I know of it). So I had to ask.
That God is not absurd can be seen from Scripture:
ReplyDeleteActs 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.
Ignorance and conscient rejection are two different things, and the Almighty doesn't seem to confound them... which should come as no surprise, since He also happens to be All-wise as well...
Here are a few other things spoken by Christ:
Luke 4:25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
28 And all they in the synagogue [ie, the Protestants], when they heard these things, were filled with wrath.
Luke 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him [ie, at the pagan Roman soldier], and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel [Israel meaning of course God's chosen people, ie, the Reformed -- sorry, Brigitte].
This has turned into a strange thread. It seems best to always look at things in the light of law and gospel. The law we know and it always condemns and accuses all of us, including the righteous among the nations, and we all die. And yet it is good and also guides us into right living. Hope and salvation can only come through Christ and thus through the church who proclaims him, and therefore, there is no other salvation except in Christ and him proclaimed. What exactly will happen in judgement I will leave to God's mercy, since that's all I have to go on for myself. Meanwhile, we take the threat of hell seriously, as all lawbreakers stand condemned and we are called to love our neighbor sacrificially. This is against our nature and thus we cry for redemption and help. Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy.
ReplyDeleteThe innocent savage, or whatever, does not really exist. We all have fallen short. That is clear. Therefore, there is only the one hope, that is that Christ has done everything and prepared everything and rose and has gone ahead, on our behalf. That the man on the cross could receive consolation from Christ at the very last moment is illustrative of the enormous gift. Beyond law and gospel, I will keep my mouth shut as to how it will go for particular people. That is why there is a judge. Because he will judge.
We know that the atheist is "a fool". He says there is "no god". And what happens is that he will do whatever he will do. He will act unethically and without check on his plans. God preserve us from this and all coarse sins. Nevertheless,I have plenty to do with checking the atheist in my own heart. Seeing as I am simul justus et peccator, the peccator has trouble with faith. And Christ will also need to redeem this incessant atheist, finally, when we see face to face.
Jimmy Akin is not the only well-known, well-regarded Catholic to state that an atheist may be saved. I can't remember the other famous Catholic who recently passed away and who wrote an essay on EENS whereby atheists and other non-Christian adherents of other religions may be saved also.
ReplyDeleteEENS has "evolved" or "developed" since it was first formulated.
Well, if Hugo could make it, and help choose a new pope...
ReplyDeleteHugo Chavez died 'in the bosom of the Church': Catholic News Agency (CNA)
Caracas, Venezuela, Mar 6, 2013 / 12:01 pm (CNA).- A source in Venezuela has revealed to CNA that President Hugo Chavez died “in bosom of the Church” and received spiritual direction and the sacraments in his last days.
In announcing Chavez’s death to the nation on March 5, Vice President Nicolas Maduro said the Venezuelan leader died “clinging to Christ.” The source in Venezuela told CNA that during the last weeks of his life, Chavez requested spiritual direction and asked to receive the sacraments.
After Chavez’s death, the Archdiocese of Caracas, led by Cardinal Jorge Urosa who is currently in Rome for the conclave [and said a mass there for Hugo], sent its condolences - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2995066/posts
Late Venezuelan leader Hugo Chavez may have had a hand in Christ's decision to opt for a Latin American pope, acting President Nicolas Maduro said on Wednesday.
"We know that our commander ascended to the heights and is face-to-face with Christ," Maduro said at a Caracas book fair. "Something influenced the choice of a South American pope, someone new arrived at Christ's side and said to him: 'Well, it seems to us South America's time has come.'"- http://sg.news.yahoo.com/did-venezuelas-chavez-nudge-christ-pick-south-american-224901129.html
Well since EENS has evolved, lets hope the church's opposition to the 5 Solas also "evolves" one day.
ReplyDeleteEven the Pope believes that atheists can be saved by simply doing good: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/pope-francis-good-atheists_n_3320757.html?ref=topbar
ReplyDelete