Hello, this is Algo.
Recently I was given the privilege of posting on the C.A.F Discussion Board. I enjoyed the interaction and found discussing the many topics to be quite challenging at times. I was engaged in an interesting discussion there not long ago and wanted to share some of the discussion here:
| Imaculate conception of Mary or Jesus needing to be saved/redeemed; which is correct? |
My first comment was in response to the following post:
| Quote:
My Response: |
| According to one early church writer God alone is without sin. Tertullian (c. 160-c. 220): Thus some men are very bad, and some very good; but yet the souls of all form but one genus: even in the worst there is something good, and in the best there is something bad. For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God. ANF: Vol. III, A Treatise on the Soul, Chapter 41. Tertullian (c. 160-c. 220): The Lord knew Himself to be the only guiltless One [Sciebat Dominus se solum sine delicto esse. De Oratione, Caput VII, PL 1:1162], and so He teaches that we beg “to have our debts remitted us.” A petition for pardon is a full confession; because he who begs for pardon fully admits his guilt. ANF: Vol. III, On Prayer, Chapter 7. This was followed up by Regular Member Odell's comments: |
| "He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235). "This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244). "Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370). "Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370). "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373). "Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388). And: |
| Noah "a righteous man, blameless an righteous among the people" (gen 6:9) Job who is "blameless and righteous" (job 1:1) "prophets and righteous men" (Matt 13:17) "you Farnese the tomb of the righteous" (Luke 14:14) I can go on and on. Not to say that the righteous are sinless. But Protestants go as far as saying non are righteous. When scripture says otherwise. Now we can go into that is because of Gods grace not that these righteous have earned in a legal sense. But that God sees them as righteous the the lense of grace. "the lord looked with grace on Abel and his offering" Cain he did not look with grace (heb 11:4 Gn 4:4-5) If theses people can be righteous then how much more is Mary? Whom Christ received his flesh! And: |
| Also if you stand to this you would have to settle for scenario #2 where Jesus needed to be saved from original sin since he inherited our corrupt flesh as Protestants would put it. So could you provide us with scripture that will inform us at what point was Christ prevented by the Holy Spirit from fallen into or inheriting Mary's fallen nature? |
| My Response: |
| Note in the above quotes that only the last quote (by Ambrose) even mentions sin. What were the others referring to? Her chastity even as a faithful, married, Jewish woman? Or a woman that has not sinned since her birth, with no mention of what the dogma declares? " this doctrine always existed in the Church as a doctrine that has been received from our ancestors, and that has been stamped with the character of revealed doctrine. " And also: "Alexander VII, who authoritatively and decisively declared the mind of the Church: "Concerning the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, ancient indeed is that devotion of the faithful based on the belief that her soul, in the first instant of its creation and in the first instant of the soul's infusion into the body, was, by a special grace and privilege of God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, her Son and the Redeemer of the human race, preserved free from all stain of original sin. And in this sense have the faithful ever solemnized and celebrated the Feast of the Conception." |
| We are then joined by another poster: |
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| #12
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Quote:
So what? As blessed as he is, he does not set doctrine. He deferred to the Church. What is it with this obsession with twisting words? Really? |
| And my response: |
| Oh, so Tertullian is now blessed. I was almost certain that you were going to call him a heritic and throw him under the bus. And who's words am I twisting? Once again I will demonstrate that numerous Early Church Writers and Early Church Fathers claimed that"God alone is without sin." Basil of Caesarea (AD. 329-379): When thou hast blessed the Lord out of Scripture according to thy power, and hast sent up thy praise to Him, then begin to humble thyself and say, ‘I am not worthy, O Lord, to speak before Thee, because I am a sinner.’ Even though thou knowest nothing evil of thyself, thou must speak so; for none is without sin, but God only. For translation, see Richard Travers Smith, The Fathers for English Readers: St. Basil the Great (New York: Poit, Young and Company, 1879), pp. 145-146. Greek Text Ὅταν δὲ δοξολογήσῃς ἀπὸ τῶν Γραφῶν, ὡς δύνασαι, καὶ ἀναπέμψῃς αἶνον πρὸς τὸν Θεὸν, τότε ἄρχου μετὰ ταπεινοφρόσύνης, καὶ λέγε. Ἐγὼ μὲν, Κύριε, οὐκ εἰμὶ ἄξιος ἐπὶ σοῦ φθέγξασθαι, διότι σφόδρα ἁμαρτωλὸς τυγχάνω. Κὰν μὴ σύνοιδάς τι σεαυτῷ φαῦλον, οὕτω χρὴ σε λέγειν. Οὐδεὶς γὰρ ἀναμάρτητος εἰ μὴ μόνος ὁ Θεός. Constitutiones Monasticae, Caput I. §3. PG 31:1329. Ambrose (c. 339-97) commenting on Luke 1:35: For wholly alone of those born of woman was our Holy Lord Jesus, Who by the strangeness of His undefiled Birth has not suffered the pollutions of earthly corruption, but dispelled them by heavenly majesty. Saint Ambrose of Milan, Exposition of the Holy Gospel according to Saint Luke, trans. Theodosia Tomkinson (Etna: Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies, 1998), Book II, §56, p. 59. Latin Text Sed immaculatum semen inviolabili utero Spiritus sanctus infudit: solus enim per omnia ex natis de femina sanctus Dominus Jesus, qui terrenae contagia corruptelae immaculati partus novitate non senserit, et coelesti majestate depulerit. Expositio Evangelii secundum Lucam, 2.56, PL 15:1572D-1573A. Ambrose (c. 339-97): No Conception is without iniquity, since there are no parents who have not fallen. For translation, see I. D. E. Thomas, The Golden Treasury of Patristic Quotations (Oklahoma City: Hearthstone Publishing, 1996), p. 258. Latin Text Nec conceptus iniquitatis exsors est, quoniam et parentes non carent lapsu. Prophetae David ad Theodosium Augustum, Caput XI, PL 14:873. Ambrose (c. 339-97): So, then, no one is without sin except God alone, for no one is without sin except God. Also, no one forgives sins except God alone, for it is also written: “Who can forgive sins but God alone?” And one cannot be the Creator of all except he be not a creature, and he who is not a creature is without doubt God; for it is written: “They worshipped the creature rather than the Creator, Who is God blessed for ever.” God also does not worship, but is worshipped, for it is written: “Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shall thou serve.” NPNF2: Vol. X, On the Holy Spirit, Book III, Chapter 18, §133. Ambrose (c. 339-97): Let us therefore consider whether the Holy Spirit have any of these marks which may bear witness to His Godhead. And first let us treat of the point that none is without sin except God alone, and demand that they prove that the Holy Spirit has sin. NPNF2: Vol. X, On the Holy Spirit, Book III, Chapter 18, §134. continued: |
| A response from Odell: |
| Ambrose also had this to say "Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388). You have not answered my question I'll ask again. I added another so you are starting to get behind At what point was Christ prevented by the Holy Spirit from fallen into or inheriting Mary's fallen nature? Tell what you think immaculate, pure, tabernacle exempt from corruption, no flaw in thee, no stain, you are the Arc, undefiled, made inviolate means? Because it sounds awful like Catholic teaching here! |
| And my response to Odell: |
| I will let St. Augustine answer your first question below as he quotes St. Ambrose: |
| continued: Augustine (354-430): We have, my dearest Marcellinus, discussed at sufficient length, I think, in the former book the baptism of infants, — how that it is given to them not only for entrance into the kingdom of God, but also for attaining salvation and eternal life, which none can have without the kingdom of God, or without that union with the Savior Christ, wherein He has redeemed us by His blood. I undertake in the present book to discuss and explain the question, Whether there lives in this world, or has yet lived, or ever will live, any one without any sin whatever, except “the one Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all;” — with as much care and ability as He may Himself vouchsafe to me. NPNF1: Vol. V, On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, and on the Baptism of Infants, Book II, Chapter 1. Augustine (354-430 AD) commenting on Psalm 87 (Actually the LXX rendering of Psalm 88:4-5): In these words the person of the Lord appears most plainly: for who else is free among the dead, if not he who, though living in the likeness of sinful flesh, was alone sinless among sinners? John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., The Works of Saint Augustine, Part 3, Vol. 18, trans. Maria Boulding, O.S.B., Expositions of the Psalms, Psalms 73-98, Psalm 87.5 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 2002), p. 260. Latin Text: In his verbis maxime persona Domini apparet. Quis enim alius inter mortuos liber, nisi in similitudine carnis peccati inter peccatores solus sine peccato? In Psalmum LXXXVII Enarratio, §5, PL 37:1111. Augustine (354-430): This being the case, ever since the time when by one man sin thus entered into this world and death by sin, and so it passed through to all men, up to the end of this carnal generation and perishing world, the children of which beget and are begotten, there never has existed, nor ever will exist, a human being of whom, placed in this life of ours, it could be said that he had no sin at all, with the exception of the one Mediator, who reconciles us to our Maker through the forgiveness of sins. NPNF1: Vol. V, On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, and on the Baptism of Infants, Book II, Chapter 47. Augustine (354-430): Let us hold fast, then, the confession of this faith, without filtering or failure. One alone is there who was born without sin, in the likeness of sinful flesh, who lived without sin amid the sins of others, and who died without sin on account of our sins. “Let us turn neither to the right hand nor to the left.” For to turn to the right hand is to deceive oneself, by saying that we are without sin; and to turn to the left is to surrender oneself to one’s sins with a sort of impunity, in I know not how perverse and depraved a recklessness. “God indeed knoweth the ways on the right hand,” even He who alone is without sin, and is able to blot out our sins; “but the ways on the left hand are perverse,” in friendship with sins. NPNF1: Vol. V, On the Merits and Forgiveness of Sins, and on the Baptism of Infants, Book II, Chapter 57 [XXXV]. Augustine (354-430 AD): Did you not read there that, when the bishop I just mentioned [i.e., Ambrose] was teaching the birth of Christ from his virgin mother, he said, “And so he was tempted in every way like a human being and endured all things like human beings, but as born of the Spirit he held back from sin. After all, every human being is a liar (Ps 116:11), and no one is without sin but the one God. The principle, then, was preserved that no one born of a man and woman, that is, through the union of bodies, is seen to be immune from transgression. But the one who is immune from transgression is also immune from that manner of conception.” John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., WSA, Answer to the Pelagians III, Answer to Julian, Book I:4, 11, Part 1, Vol. 24, trans. Roland J. Teske, S.J. (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1998), p. 272. continued: See Next Post Part # 2. Algo |
| A Visit to Catholic Answers Forum Part #1 http://forums.catholic.com/forumdisplay.php?f=20 |
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