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Sunday, October 02, 2011

Did Jerome Change His Mind on the Apocrypha ?

Here's an old post written by my friend Ray Aviles. I originally posted it 06/14/06.

By Ray Aviles

There’s an argument going around the Catholic apologetic circles claiming that Jerome changed his position on the Apocrypha later in his life. That he came to accept these books as inspired because of the “judgment of the churches” on this matter. Furthermore, they claim the evidence of this lies in his citing these books using the word “Scripture” to define them. RC apologist Mark Shea provides an example of this in an Envoy Magazine article (found here: http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/1.2/marapril_story2.html). He writes:

"In his later years St. Jerome did indeed accept the Deuterocanonical books of the Bible. In fact, he wound up strenuously defending their status as inspired Scripture, writing, "What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]). In earlier correspondence with Pope Damasus, Jerome did not call the deuterocanonical books unscriptural, he simply said that Jews he knew did not regard them as canonical. But for himself, he acknowledged the authority of the Church in defining the canon. When Pope Damasus and the Councils of Carthage and Hippo included the deuterocanon in Scripture, that was good enough for St. Jerome. He "followed the judgment of the churches."

Shea not only claims that Jerome accepted them, but that he “strenuously” defended them. A word used to intrigue the reader, but there is no evidence that he defended them, let alone “strenuously.” Furthermore, from the citation above, he states that Jerome followed the “judgment of the churches”, which Shea translates as the synods of Hippo and Carthage, but he is mistaken. Contextually, the “judgment of the churches” refers to Theodotion’s translation of Daniel which the churches were using instead of the Septuagint version. To add to this, he couldn’t have followed Carthage considering they met 17 years after Jerome penned the above. Both Hippo and Carthage were regional councils, didn’t speak for the entire church, thus it wasn’t mandated that Jerome submit to their decisions. Yet, it was Theodotion’s version Jerome refers to when he mentions the “judgment of the churches” and not their decision on canon:

"In reference to Daniel my answer will be that I did not say that he was not a prophet; on the contrary, I confessed in the very beginning of the Preface that he was a prophet. But I wished to show what was the opinion upheld by the Jews; and what were the arguments on which they relied for its proof. I also told the reader that the version read in the Christian churches was not that of the Septuagint translators but that of Theodotion. It is true, I said that the Septuagint version was in this book very different from the original, and that it was condemned by the right judgment of the churches of Christ; but the fault was not mine who only stated the fact, but that of those who read the version. We have four versions to choose from: those of Aquila, Symmachus, the Seventy, and Theodotion. The churches choose to read Daniel in the version of Theodotion. What sin have I committed in following the judgment of the churches? But when I repeat what the Jews say against the Story of Susanna and the Hymn of the Three Children, and the fables of Bel and the Dragon, which are not contained in the Hebrew Bible, the man who makes this a charge against me proves himself to be a fool and a slanderer; for I explained not what I thought but what they commonly say against us. I did not reply to their opinion in the Preface, because I was studying brevity, and feared that I should seem to be writing not a Preface but a book. I said therefore, "As to which this is not the time to enter into discussion." Otherwise from the fact that I stated that Porphyry had said many things against this prophet, and called, as witnesses of this, Methodius, Eusebius, and Apollinarius, who have replied to his folly in many thousand lines, it will be in his power to accuse me for not baring written in my Preface against the books of Porphyry. If there is any one who pays attention to silly things like this, I must tell him loudly and free that no one is compelled to read what he does not want; that I wrote for those who asked me, not for those who would scorn me, for the grateful not the carping, for the earnest not the indifferent. Still, I wonder that a man should read the version of Theodotion the heretic and judaizer, and should scorn that of a Christian, simple and sinful though he may be.

The issue was Theodotion’s (a known heretic) translation of Daniel which was being used by the churches. The translation was faulty, wasn’t based on the Septuagint, and condemned by the “right judgment of the churches”, but the reader can see that this in no way applies to the decision on canon made at the local councils of Hippo and Carthage.

Jerome goes on to say that he is merely stating Jewish opinion against these books. Although this was the view he espoused, he was not the originator, and it put him in the uncomfortable position of arguing with the Jews on this. J.N.D. Kelly expounds:

"Jerome, conscious of the difficulty of arguing with Jews on the basis of books they spurned and anyhow regarding the Hebrew original as authoritative, was adamant that anything not found in it was ‘to be classed among the apocrypha’, not in the canon; later he grudgingly conceded that the Church read some of these books for edification, but not to support doctrine." [J. N. D. Kelly, Early Christian Doctrines (San Francisco: Harper, 1960), p. 55].

He was further riled by the fact that the churches followed the translation of a known heretic instead of a Christian such as himself. As an aside, Shea wrongfully associates Pope Damasus as being in agreement with the alleged “decision” at Hippo and Carthage, but Damasus died in 384 A.D, nine years before Hippo (393) and thirteen years before Carthage (397).

Shea continues with the usual RC apologetic misrepresentations against Martin Luther, naming him as the culprit who excluded the deuterocanonicals (Jim Swan did a wonderful job of putting the proper perspective on Luther and the canon here) Yet, I’ve always found this to be odd reasoning considering the Roman Catholic canon wasn’t decided until Trent. Cardinal Cajetan (the same one who opposed Luther) and Cardinal Ximenes, both contemporaries of the era, wrote against the canonicity of these books as well. Further, there was opposition within Trent regarding these books, spearheaded by the group led by Giralamo Cardinal Seripando (for more information on this, read Hubert Jedin’s Cardinal Seripando, Papal Legate at Trent). The mere fact that there was opposition at Trent substantiates that no canon was in effect where the “judgment of the churches” would authoritatively bind the Catholic to the decision at Hippo and Carthage.

Shea reiterates his error here:

"As St. Jerome said, it is upon the basis of "the judgment of the churches" and no other that the canon of Scripture is known, since the Scriptures are simply the written portion of the Church's apostolic tradition."

Again, Shea is embellishing Jerome’s statements regarding the “judgment of the churches” to mean something that it isn’t. As I’ve already shown, contextually, Jerome is saying something else entirely. Yet, Shea isn’t the only one who tries to make Jerome pro-deuteros. Some Catholic apologists play more loosely with Jerome’s words. An apologist who calls himself “Matt1618” asserts in his internet article “Did Some Church Fathers Reject the Deuterocanonicals as Scripture” (found here: http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/deut.html) that Jerome did indeed show an acceptance of these books because he never denied them inspiration and he called them “Scripture” in his later writings. This is merely “reading between the lines” in an attempt to find something more favorable to his position. He states:

"In fact it is true that none of the Fathers, even St. Jerome, ever deny their inspiration."

I don’t know how “Matt1618” would define this “denial”, but all this amounts to wishful thinking. To put it simply, what Jerome states in his prefaces and commentaries amounts to a denial of their inspiration as well as their canonicity. To put it plainly, if Jerome states that a book isn’t canonical it is only because Jerome doesn’t believe it is inspired. Scripture is “God-breathed” and men wrote as they were inspired of God. Inspired books are in the canon because they came from the very mouth of God. It defeats the purpose of the canon if some “God-breathed” Scriptures are included and others aren’t. If a book is not in the canon, it is because it is not inspired. In essence, “Matt1618” is implying that Jerome didn’t see “inspiration” as the criterion for inclusion into the canon and that a book can be “inspired” and “Scripture” and, for whatever reasons, be outside of the canon. In his commentary on Wisdom of Solomon and Ecclesiasticus, Jerome states:

"As, then, the Church reads Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees, but does not admit them among the canonical Scriptures, so let it also read these two Volumes (Wisdom of Solomon and Ecclesiasticus) for the edification of the people, not to give authority to doctrines of the Church."

According to Jerome, these books are ecclesiastical, capable of spiritual teaching, but cannot be used for supporting church doctrine. This begs the question: Since when is known Scripture not to be used for supporting doctrine? Even Scripture itself attests:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16-17).
Furthermore, Jerome, emphatically states in his preface to the books of Samuel and Kings:

"This preface to the Scriptures may serve as a "helmeted" introduction to all the books which we turn from Hebrew into Latin, so that we may be assured that what is not found in our list must be placed amongst the Apocryphal writings. Wisdom, therefore, which generally bears the name of Solomon, and the book of Jesus, the Son of Sirach, and Judith, and Tobias, and the Shepherd are not in the canon."

In his preface to the Daniel he states:

"I say this to show you how hard it is to master the book of Daniel, which in Hebrew contains neither the history of Susanna, nor the hymn of the three youths, nor the fables of Bel and the Dragon; because, however, they are to be found everywhere, we have formed them into an appendix, prefixing to them an obelus, and thus making an end of them, so as not to seem to the uninformed to have cut off a large portion of the volume."

Four things are to be noted here. The first being that the additions weren’t in the Hebrew Scriptures; secondly, that Jerome calls Bel and the Dragon a “fable”; thirdly, that they were appended to his Vulgate; and fourthly, that they were marked with an “obelus” which is a critical symbol used in ancient manuscripts to mark a questionable passage. Nothing here reveals any indication that Jerome held, at least, the additions to be inspired Scripture.

Again, to Jerome, the extra books were “…not to give authority to the doctrines of the Church” and they “…are not in the canon.” Attempting to draw skepticism by claiming that he didn’t call them “uninspired” is leading the reader at best. Sure, they have some ecclesiastical value within them, but a book doesn’t need to be inspired or canonical to have ecclesiastical value. Although there are other passages from his writings that I can cite, I believe these suffice in showing that Jerome did not believe the Apocryphal books were inspired.

Next, “Matt1618” states there is evidence that Jerome did indeed cite these books and cited them “…approximately 55 times.” This is easy to refute. After all, if Paul can cite pagan writers such as Menander, Epimenedes, or Aratus, I’m sure Jerome can cite from these books which he claimed were good for the edification of the church as well as others. But “Matt 1618” goes further and says that he cited them as Scripture. He then goes to give a few selected quotes from Jerome:

(I am citing from his article, my comments are in black fonts and brackets)

Does not the SCRIPTURE say: 'Burden not thyself above thy power' [SIRACH 13:2] Jerome, To Eustochium, Epistle 108 (A.D. 404), in NPNF2, VI:207 [* Matt1618 is correct, Jerome does call this verse from Sirach “Scripture”, but one must question if what he means is in the “inspired” sense. Considering he has already stated that “Ecclesiasticus” (Sirach) is not to be used doctrinally (see above) we can assume that this is not the case]

Do not, my dearest brother, estimate my worth by the number of my years. Gray hairs are not wisdom; it is wisdom which is as good as gray hairs At least that is what Solomon says: "wisdom is the gray hair unto men.’ [Wisdom 4:9]" Moses too in choosing the seventy elders is told to take those whom he knows to be elders indeed, and to select them not for their years but for their discretion (Num. 11:16)? And, as a boy, Daniel judges old men and in the flower of youth condemns the incontinence of age (Daniel 13:55-59, or Story of Susannah 55-59, only found in the Catholic Bibles) Jerome, To Paulinus, Epistle 58 (A.D. 395), in NPNF2, VI:119 [* Matt1618 is reading too much into this citation, although he “cites” these books, citing them doesn’t mean he viewed them as “Scripture”, especially in light of the fact that he stated the books can be used “ecclesiastically”]

"I would cite the words of the psalmist: 'the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,’ [Ps 51:17] and those of Ezekiel 'I prefer the repentance of a sinner rather than his death,’ [Ez 18:23] AND THOSE OF BARUCH,'Arise, arise, O Jerusalem,’ [Baruch 5:5] AND MANY OTHER PROCLAMATIONS MADE BY THE TRUMPETS OF THE PROPHETS." Jerome, To Oceanus, Epistle 77:4 (A.D. 399), in NPNF2, VI:159 [* Same as above]

[It is true that a festival such as the birthday of Saint Peter should be seasoned with more gladness than usual;] still our merriment must not forget the limit set by Scripture, and we must not stray too far from the boundary of our wrestling-ground. Your presents, indeed, remind me of the sacred volume, for in it Ezekiel decks Jerusalem with bracelets, (Eze. 16:11) Baruch receives letters from Jeremiah,(Jer. 36, Bar. 6) and the Holy Spirit descends in the form of a dove at the baptism of Christ.(Mt. 3:16) Jerome, To Eustochium, Epistle 31:2 (A.D. 384), in NPNF2, VI:45 [* In the beginning brackets, I added what “Matt1618” left out considering this adds context to the passage. If I would’ve left it exactly as he cited it, then it would seem as if this is one thought. However, the first “Scripture” is within the context of the festival of St. Peter. The second “sacred volume” is in the context of the presents given to Jerome. These are two thought and not one. Thus, when he cites Baruch, he isn’t specifically calling it Scripture and, again, Jerome could be citing it for its ecclesiastical value].

As in good works it is God who brings them to perfection, for it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that pitieth and gives us help that we may be able to reach the goal: so in things wicked and sinful, the seeds within us give the impulse, and these are brought to maturity by the devil. When he sees that we are building upon the foundation of Christ, hay, wood, stubble, then he applies the match. Let us then build gold, silver, costly stones, and he will not venture to tempt us: although even thus there is not sure and safe possession. For the lion lurks in ambush to slay the innocent. [Sir. 27:5] "Potters' vessels are proved by the furnace, and just men by the trial of tribulation." And in another place it is written: [Sir. 2:1] "My son, when thou comest to serve the Lord, prepare thyself for temptation." Again, the same James says: [James 3:22]"Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only. For if any one is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a mirror: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth away, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was." It was useless to warn them to add works to faith, if they could not sin after baptism. Jerome, Against Jovinianus, Book 2, 3 NPNF2, VI:390 [* Matt1618 makes the assumption that Jerome’s usage of the phrase “it is written” is being used in the biblical sense—that there is an air of Scriptural credibility within this phrase—but he never stops to think if Jerome simply meant that these citations were “written”, nothing more and nothing less).

"Yet the Holy Spirit in the thirty-ninth(9) psalm, while lamenting that all men walk in a vain show, and that they are subject to sins, speaks thus: "For all that every man walketh in the image."(Psalm 39:6) Also after David's time, in the reign of Solomon his son, we read a somewhat similar reference to the divine likeness. For in the book of Wisdom, WHICH IS INSCRIBED WITH HIS NAME, SOLOMON SAYS: "GOD CREATED MAN TO BE IMMORTAL, AND MADE HIM TO BE AN IMAGE OF HIS OWN ETERNITY."(Wisdom 2:23) And again, about eleven hundred and eleven years afterwards, we read in the New Testament that men have not lost the image of God. For James, an apostle and brother of the Lord, whom I have mentioned above--that we may not be entangled in the snares of Origen--teaches us that man does possess God's image and likeness. For, after a somewhat discursive account of the human tongue, he has gone on to say of it: "It is an unruly evil ... therewith bless we God, even the Father and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God."(James 3:8-9) Paul, too, the "chosen vessel,"(Acts 9:15) who in his preaching has fully maintained the doctrine of the gospel, instructs us that man is made in the image and after the likeness of God. "A man," he says, "ought not to wear long hair, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God."(1 Cor. 11:7) He speaks of "the image" simply, but explains the nature of the likeness by the word "glory."

7. Instead of THE THREE PROOFS FROM HOLY SCRIPTURE which you said would satisfy you if I could produce them, BEHOLD I HAVE GIVEN YOU SEVEN"--- Jerome, Letter 51, NPNF2, VI:87-8 [* In context, Jerome gives more then seven Scriptures within this passage and there is no way of telling whether the citation from Wisdom is amongst the “seven”, but for the sake of argument we’ll give it the benefit of the doubt. I don’t know why “Matt1618”capitalizes “which is inscribed with his name” and I can only hope he isn’t implying that “his name” refers to God, thus indicating inspiration. On the contrary, this evidently refers to Solomon who it is said wrote this book].

A. "Your argument is ingenious, but you do not see THAT IT GOES AGAINST HOLY SCRIPTURE, which declares that even ignorance is not without sin. Hence it was that Job offered sacrifices for his sons, test, perchance, they had unwittingly sinned in thought. And if, when one is cutting wood, the axe-head flies from the handle and kills a man, the owner is[Num. 35:8] commanded to go to one of the cities of refuge and stay there until the high priest dies; that is to say, until he is redeemed by the Saviour's blood, either in the baptistery, or in penitence which is a copy of the grace of baptism, through the ineffable mercy of the Saviour, who[Ezek. 18:23] would not have any one perish, nor delights in the death of sinners, but would rather that they should be converted and live. C. It is surely strange justice to hold me guilty of a sin of error of which my conscience does not accuse itself. I am not aware that I have sinned, and am I to pay the penalty for an offence of which I am ignorant? What more can I do, if I sin voluntarily?
A. DO YOU EXPECT ME TO EXPLAIN THE PURPOSES AND PLANS OF GOD? THE BOOK OF WISDOM GIVES AN ANSWER TO YOUR FOOLISH QUESTION: [Sir 3:21] "LOOK NOT INTO THINGS ABOVE THEE, AND SEARCH NOT THINGS TOO MIGHTY FOR THEE." AND ELSEWHERE,[5] "Make not thyself overwise, and argue not more than is fitting." And in the same place, "In wisdom and simplicity of heart seek God." You will perhaps deny the authority of this book;" "Jerome, "Against the Pelagians, NPNF2, VI:464-5" [* He submits these together, but anyone can see that when Jerome refers to Scripture in the passage, he is referring to canonical Scripture (Job, Numbers, and Ezekiel). The citation from Sirach is independent of the above citation and there is no indication that Jerome cites it as Scripture].
"And in the proverbs Solomon tells us that as "the north wind driveth away rain, so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.(Prov. 25:23)" It sometimes happens that an arrow when it is aimed at a hard object rebounds upon the bowman, wounding the would-bewounder, and thus, the words are fulfilled, "they were turned aside like a deceitful bow," (Psalm 128:57) and in another passage: "whoso casteth a stone on high casteth it on his own head." (Sir. 27:25) Jerome, To Rusticus, Epistle 125, 19 (A.D. 404), in NPNF2, VI:251 [* Again, although Sirach is used in context alongside Scripture, it doesn’t prove much, especially in light of ecclesiastical usage]
9. Let me call to my aid the example of the three children, (Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego in Daniel 3) who, amid the cool, encircling fire, sang hymns, (Song of Three Holy Children, found only in Deuterocanonical portion of Daniel 3) instead of weeping, and around whose turbans and holy hair the flames played harmlessly. Let me recall, too, the story of the blessed Daniel, in whose presence, though he was their natural prey, the lions crouched, with fawning tails and frightened mouths.(Daniel 6) Let Susannah also rise in the nobility of her faith before the thoughts of all; who, after she had been condemned by an unjust sentence, was saved through a youth inspired by the Holy Ghost (Susanna 45, or Daniel 13:45). In both cases the Lord's mercy was alike shewn; for while Susannah was set free by the judge, so as not to die by the sword, this woman, though condemned by the judge, was acquitted by the sword. Jerome, Letter 1:9, NPNF2, VI:2 [* Jerome cites the additions to Daniel, but this doesn’t mean he cited this as inspired Scripture and not ecclesiastically]
6. I salute your mother and mine with the respect which, as you know, I feel towards her. Associated with you as she is in a holy life, she has the start of you, her holy children, in that she is your mother. Her womb may thus be truly called golden. With her I salute your sisters, who ought all to be welcomed wherever they go, for they have triumphed over their sex and the world, and await the Bridegroom's coming, (Mt. 25:4) their lamps replenished with oil. O happy the house which is a home of a widowed Anna, of virgins that are prophetesses, and of twin Samuels bred in the Temple! (Luke 2:36, Acts 21:9, 1 Sam. 2:18) Fortunate the roof which shelters the martyr-mother of the Maccabees, with her sons around her, each and all wearing the martyr's crown! (2 Macc. 7) For although you confess Christ every day by keeping His commandments, yet to this private glory you have added the public one of an open confession; for it was through you that the poison of the Arian heresy was formerly banished from your city. Jerome, to Chromatius, Jovinus, and Eusebius, Letter 7:6, NPNF2, VI:10 [* Jerome cited a historical fact which happens to be recorded in 2 Maccabees 7. Citing history doesn’t make the history book “Scripture”]
But now that a virgin has conceived (Isa. 7:14) in the womb and has borne to us a child of which the prophet says that "Government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called the mighty God, the everlasting Father," (Isa. 9:6) now the chain of the curse is broken. Death came through Eve, but life has come through Mary. And thus the gift of virginity has been bestowed most richly upon women, seeing that it has had its beginning from a woman. As soon as the Son of God set foot upon the earth, He formed for Himself a new household there; that, as He was adored by angels in heaven, angels might serve Him also on earth. Then chaste Judith once more cut off the head of Holofernes (Jud. 13).Then Haman--whose name means iniquity--was once more burned in fire of his own kindling (Est. 7:10) Then James and John forsook father and net and ship and followed the Saviour: neither kinship nor the world's ties, nor the care of their home could hold them back. Then were the words heard: "Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." (Mark 8:34) For no soldier goes with a wife to battle. Even when a disciple would have buried his father, the Lord forbade him, and said: "Foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man hath not where to lay His head." (Mt. 8:20-22) So you must not complain if you have but scanty house-room. In the same strain, the apostle writes: "He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord but he that is married careth for the things that are of the world how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord that she may be holy both in body and in spirit. But she that is married careth for the things of the world how she may please her husband." (1 Cor. 7:34-36). Jerome, to Eustochium, Letter 22:21, NPNF2, VI:30 [* Again, citing an apocryphal book doesn’t mean that Jerome viewed it as “Scripture” when he could be using it ecclesiastically]
For it is not ecclesiastical rank that makes a man a Christian. The centurion Cornelius was still a heathen when he was cleansed by the gift of the Holy Spirit. Daniel was but a child when he judged the elders.( Dan. 13:55-63, or Susanna 55-63) Amos was stripping mulberry bushes when, in a moment, he was made a prophet (Amos 7:14) David was only a shepherd when he was chosen to be king.(2 Sam. 16:11-13) And the least of His disciples was the one whom Jesus loved the most. My brother, sit down in the lower room, that when one less honorable comes you may be bidden to go up higher (Luke 14:10). Jerome, to Heliodorus, Letter 14:9, NPNF2, VI:17. [* Jerome refers to a history recorded in Susanna. Again, nothing that would place Jerome as citing inspired Scripture]
These things, dearest daughter in Christ, I impress upon you and frequently repeat, that you may forget those things which are behind and reach forth unto those things which are before (Phil. 3:12). You have widows like yourself worthy to be your models, Judith renowned in Hebrew story (Jud. 13) and Anna the daughter of Phanuel (Lk 2) famous in the gospel. Both these lived day and night in the temple and preserved the treasure of their chastity by prayer and by fasting. One was a type of the Church which cuts off the head of the devil (Jud. 13:8) and the other first received in her arms the Saviour of the world and had revealed to her the holy mysteries which were to come (Lk 2:36-38). Jerome, to Salvina, Letter 79:10, NPNF2, VI:168 [* Jerome explicitly calls the Judith account a “Hebrew story”, but the account of Phanuel in Luke 2 he calls “the gospel.” If he were citing them both as Scripture, why classify Judith this way and contrast it to a gospel account? I think the answer is obvious].
To summarize, “Matt1618” has only one instance of Jerome calling an Apocryphal book “Scripture”, maybe two if we ease up a bit and include Jerome, Letter 51, NPNF2, VI:87-8. Yet, in neither of these instances do we have anything which would enthrall the reader into believing he accepted these books as inspired Scripture. J.N.D. Kelly sheds light on Jerome’s usage of these books and his usage of the word Scripture:
Jerome’s conversion to ‘the Hebrew verity’ [i.e. in contrast to the LXX] carried with it an important corollary—his acceptance also of the Hebrew canon, or list of books properly belonging to the Old Testament. Since the early Church had read its Old Testament in Greek, it had taken over without question the so-called Alexandrian canon used in the Greek-speaking Jewish communities outside Palestine. This had included those books (Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Judith, etc.) which are variously described as deuterocanonical or as the Apocrypha. Around the end of the first century, however, official Judaism had formally excluded these, limiting the canon to the books which figure in English Bibles as the Old Testament proper. Since Origen’s time it had been recognised that there was a distinction between the Jewish canon and the list acknowledged by Christians, but most writers preferred to place the popular and widely used deutero-canonical books in a special category (e.g. calling them ‘ecclesiastical’) rather than to discard them. Jerome now takes a much firmer line. After enumerating the ‘twenty-two’ (or perhaps twenty-four) books recognised by the Jews, he decrees that any books outside this list must be reckoned ‘apocryphal’: ‘They are not in the canon.’ Elsewhere, while admitting that the Church reads books like Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus which are strictly uncanonical, he insists on their being used solely ‘for edifying the people, not for the corroboration of ecclesiastical’. This was the attitude which, with temporary concessions for tactical or other reasons, he was to maintain for the rest of his life—in theory at any rate, for in practice he continued to cite them as if they were Scripture. Again what chiefly moved him was the embarrassment he felt at having to argue with Jews on the basis of books which they rejected or even (e.g. the stories of Susanna, or of Bel and the Dragon) found frankly ridiculous. J. N. D. Kelly, Jerome: His Life, Writings, and Controversies (Peabody: Hendrickson Publishers, 2000), pp. 160-161.
RC apologists, those who argue this way, are merely using sophistry to recreate Jerome and place him on the side of the Deuterocanonicals, but the evidence really doesn’t give them much to stand on. I guess this is due to the fact that Jerome is one of the Doctors of the Church and he happened to disagree that these books were inspired Scripture. It is a source of embarrassment to them so they attempt to salvage whatever they can and find themselves reading “between the lines” of his writings in a futile attempt to win him back. There is no record showing that Jerome had a change of heart regarding these books and the very fact that scholarly clergymen, such as the aforementioned Cardinals, used Jerome’s position as a catalyst for their own disagreements with these books shows an understanding that he never wavered, never changed his position. But some RC apologists choose to blind themselves from the facts.
In conclusion, Augustine, who was a contemporary of Jerome, advocated the Apocryphal books and used his weighty suffrage to influence the African synods (Hippo and Carthage), but his appeal to them was strictly emotional and, as evidenced in the City of God, he used folklore to gain acceptance of these books. Regarding canon issues and languages, it was Jerome who was the canon scholar and not Augustine. In their correspondence on the issue of the Latin translation (dated 404 AD), Jerome chides Augustine for misunderstanding the nuances of his translations (see here: http://www.bible-researcher.com/vulgate2.html). Augustine chose not to side with Jerome, but continued to push the Septuagint over the Hebrew, even though the Septuagint itself was translated into Greek from the Hebrew. Augustine’s adherence to the LXX was based on the story of the “Seventy” which were the 72 Jewish translators who translated the Hebrew into the Greek language. Augustine tells the story of how these men worked separately in cells and when they compared their manuscripts, they were uniform in every detail, word for word. Jerome calls the story of the cells “fables” and made up, but Augustine claimed that because they worked under the same Spirit, they were led in this endeavor, thus proving the LXX to be of God. What Augustine either didn’t understand or ignored is that the “Seventy” only translated the first 5 books of Moses, the Pentateuch. In the website “The Septuagint Online” states:
Philo of Alexandria (fl. 1st c CE) confirms that only the Torah was commissioned to be translated, and some modern scholars have concurred, noting a kind of consistency in the style of the Greek Penteteuch [sic]. Over the course of the next three centuries, however, other books of the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek in an order that is not altogether clear. By observing technical terms and translation styles, by comparing the Greek versions to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and by comparing them to Hellenistic literature, scholars are trying to stitch together a history of the translations that eventually found their way into collections. It seems that sometimes a Hebrew book was translated more than once, or that a particular Greek translation was revised. In other cases, a work was composed afresh in Greek, yet was included in the collection of scriptures (from http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/index.htm)
Only the Pentateuch was translated by the “Seventy” and Augustine truly had no clear reasoning in accepting the Septuagint and the books not found in the Hebrew text. It would seem he influence men through the use of quaint myths or hearsay, but as for Jerome he was resolute and never changed his mind, never follow a “decision” made by the councils influenced by Augustine and, most obviously, he never felt the need to. Jerome denied both the inspiration and the canonicity of the added books and no amount of historical revision will change the facts.

26 comments:

  1. This is quite timely, as i was just involved in a debate (in which i linked Jerome to this page) where again the RC assertion was made that Rome gave us the Bible and thus we cannot tell her she is wrong. Which, despite effectively nuking the church by its premise, is fallacious if it supposes that it had an infallible canon to give prior to the Reformation.

    And which may still be considered open, due to the debate on 3 Esdras, which you deal much with as well →
    thank God, as well due to Rome making Tradition equal to Scripture.

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    1. Yes, Rome gave us Scripture, even "Catholic Church" is in the following text, Protestant historian Philip Schaff - Year 150 AD, 603III.—Canon Muratorianus.4977
      I.…those things at which he was present he placed thus.4978 The third book of the Gospel, that according to Luke, the well-known physician Luke wrote in his own name4979 in order after the ascension of Christ, and when Paul had associated him with himself4980 as one studious of right.4981 Nor did he himself see the Lord in the flesh; and he, according as he was able to accomplish

      2. Moreover, the Acts of all the Apostles are comprised by Luke in one book, and addressed to the most excellent Theophilus, because these different events took place when he was present himself; and he shows this clearly—i.e., that the principle on which he wrote was, to give only what fell under his own notice—by the omission4988 of the passion of Peter, and also of the journey of Paul, when he went from the city—Rome—to Spain.

      3. As to the epistles4989 of Paul, again, to those who will understand the matter, they indicate of themselves what they are, and from what place or with what object they were directed. He wrote first of all, and at considerable length, to the Corinthians, to check the schism of heresy; and then to the Galatians, to forbid circumcision; and then to the Romans on the rule of the Old Testament Scriptures, and also to show them that Christ is the first object4990 in these;—which it is needful for us to discuss severally,4991 as the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name, in this order: the first to the Corinthians, the second to the Ephesians, the third to the Philippians, the fourth to the Colossians, the fifth to the Galatians, the sixth to the Thessalonians, the seventh to the Romans. Moreover, though he writes twice to the Corinthians and Thessalonians for their correction, it is yet shown—i.e., by this sevenfold writing—that there is one Church spread abroad through the whole world. And John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes only to seven churches, yet addresses all. He wrote, besides these, one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in simple personal affection and love indeed; but yet these are hallowed in the esteem of the Catholic Church, and in the regulation of ecclesiastical discipline. There are also in circulation one to the Laodiceans, and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, andaddressed against the heresy of Marcion; and there are also several others which cannot be received into the Catholic Church, for it is not suitable for gall to be mingled with honey.

      https://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.v.iii.iii.html

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  2. This, along with James Swan's articles on Luther and justification by faith alone and Alistar McGrath and Romans 3:28, may be the most important articles at this web-site.

    They are well- worth repeating from time to time, because they are so important.

    http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/02/luther-added-word-alone-to-romans-328.html

    http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2006/08/alister-mcgrath-on-augustine-and.html

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  3. Mark Shea made a mistake in the citation from Against Rufinus 11:33 - it should II:33 as in 2, 33.


    What sin have I committed if I followed the judgment of the churches? But he who brings charges against me for relating the objections that the Hebrews are wont to raise against the story of Susanna, the Son of the Three Children, and the story of Bel and the Dragon, which are not found in the Hebrew volume (ie. canon), proves that he is just a foolish sycophant. For I wasn't relating my own personal views, but rather the remarks that they [the Jews] are wont to make against us" (Against Rufinus 11:33 [A.D. 402]).

    see here:

    http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/01/the-canon-question/#comment-6206

    Also, his original article has moved.

    http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/religion-and-philosophy/apologetics/5-myths-about-7-books.html

    I just noticed this because some Iranian Christians are becoming Roman Catholic and I so I was debating them informally and looked at these articles again.

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  4. Anonymous, all you are posting is parroted prevaricating propaganda, being contrary to Scripture and history.

    No, Rome did not give us Scripture, since the NT church was not the RCC, and Scripture existed before Rome, which, contrary to its self-proclaimed presumption, is not necessary for souls to ascertain what is of God, both men and writings. Neither does even being the historical magisterial judges on what is of God, men and writings, mean that all their judgments are of God, and are to be submitted to.

    For,

    1. Rather than the NT church, which provided the NT, being the Catholic Church (Rome or EO), distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly God-inspired, substantive, authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels)

    2. And rather than Rome being necessary to know what is of God, an authoritative body of wholly inspired Scripture had been established by the time of Christ, as manifest by the frequent appeals to Scripture, including "He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. Luke 24:27) And writings of which provided the prophetic and doctrinal epistemological foundation for the church.

    3. Moreover, rather than being the historical magisterial judges on what is of God, men and writings, mean that all their judgments are of God, and are to be submitted to, the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) which was the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23)

    And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

    4. In addition, rather than Protestantism owing its canon to the church of Rome, it is even effectively affirmed in Catholicism that btwn her canon and ours, we hold to the most ancient OT canon: “the protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants.” “...the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia>Canon of the Old Testament; htttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) The Protestant canon of the Old Testament is the same as the Palestinian canon. (The Catholic Almanac, 1960, p. 217)

    Furthermore, it took Rome over 1400 hundred years after the last book was penned for her to definitively settle her canon, thus as James Swan has well-established, scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible" (yet faulty) indisputable canon for Catholics - after the death of Luther (whose personal opinion on the canon was not wholly followed in Protestantism) (Also, some of the books of the Pseudepigrapha were invoked by some church fathers, and found their way into other canons of various Eastern churches, which also differ with that of Rome.

    Its over.

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  5. Anonymous, all you are posting is parroted prevaricating propaganda, being contrary to Scripture and history

    That's typical of Anonymous!

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  6. That's typical of Anonymous!

    You mean pontifical, prodigious, or profuse can be added in the pejorative to this damning profane polemical perversion of the pure word of God, which presumes a premise that the papal church was the prima NT church of Scripture. And I am serious.

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  7. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  8. I was wondering what you thought of this article I had written?:

    I had a chance this evening to look over your article. It was a good presentation.

    I was fascinated by the anonymous comment that was left, for a number of reasons:

    1. Though written articulately, it was not a clearly written comment. I thought the name-dropping of Aristotle was at best clever, at worst, pretentious.

    2. I've never been a fan of "anonymous" comments that don't clearly define their ultimate authority or convictions. I suspect the anonymous person was Roman Catholic?

    3. You wrote, "The apostle's message could be paraphrased in this manner: 'the one justified by faith shall live.'" Your anonymous detractor wrote, "I don’t believe you can do [sic] simply take the liberty of paraphrasing the prophet as you did. It changed the meaning of the text to better imply what you wish." If I recall correctly, that "paraphrase" is the same exact thing Luther wrote in his introduction to Romans, but I'd have to check it to verify.

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  9. Though written articulately, it was not a clearly written comment.

    I certainly win the prize for not being articulate, much less clearly written! Being 70 and with stiff arthritic fingers is only part of the problem.

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  10. Hey Ray,
    I don't know whether I understood your argument. Are you saying that in all those instances, Jerome is refering to the deuterocanonicals as "Scripture" but not "inspired scripture"?

    Does not the SCRIPTURE say: 'Burden not thyself above thy power' [SIRACH 13:2] Jerome, To Eustochium, Epistle 108 (A.D. 404), in NPNF2, VI:207

    Ok, why is he emphasizing it? If Sirach is not insoired, why does he asks the question "Does not Scripture say?" What is the purpose of tbis question?
    In the case of Baruch, he cites him as written by a prophet. Help me out here, how is that. Ot inspired?
    Lastly, what would convince you that Jerome changed his mind? I assume your problem is that Jerome in these instances is not explicit enough. So If Jerome would have used the phrase "divine scripture" for example, eould that be a proof that he does not cite a mere human writing, but a divine writing?
    Thanks for your answer in advance.

    P.s. I am not the anonymous guy mentioned above. I am new to this website and I simply don't have an account. Thanks

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    1. Hey, Dave!

      This seems like the usual Protestant argument of misquoting or moving the goal posts to just not becoming Catholic or having to show their arguments are flawed. Ray is doing a pretty Protestant thing by saying he doesn’t specifically say “inspired scriptures” therefore the silly Catholics are false. This is how Protestants justify being Protestant, they misrepresent the truth and move their standards to the max on things church fathers would disagree on them with different beliefs. This is why Trent horn and other Catholic apologists argue like atheists; atheists, when given evidence of the proof of god, push it to the side and say that it isn’t satisfactory enough, just to keep being an atheist.

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  11. If Sirach is not insoired, why does he asks the question "Does not Scripture say?" What is the purpose of tbis question?
    In the case of Baruch, he cites him as written by a prophet. Help me out here, how is that.


    ● The Catholic Encyclopedia states,

    An analysis of Jerome's expressions on the deuterocanonicals, in various letters and prefaces, yields the following results: first, he strongly doubted their inspiration; secondly, the fact that he occasionally quotes them, and translated some of them as a concession to ecclesiastical tradition, is an involuntary testimony on his part to the high standing these writings enjoyed in the Church at large, and to the strength of the practical tradition which prescribed their readings in public worship.

    Obviously, the inferior rank to which the deuteros were relegated by authorities like Origen, Athanasius, and Jerome, was due to too rigid a conception of canonicity, one demanding that a book, to be entitled to this supreme dignity, must be received by all, must have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and must moreover be adapted not only to edification, but also to the "confirmation of the doctrine of the Church", to borrow Jerome's phrase. (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm)

    ● At Jerusalem there was a renascence, perhaps a survival, of Jewish ideas, the tendency there being distinctly unfavourable to the deuteros. St. Cyril of that see, while vindicating for the Church the right to fix the Canon, places them among the apocrypha and forbids all books to be read privately which are not read in the churches. In Antioch and Syria the attitude was more favourable. St. Epiphanius shows hesitation about the rank of the deuteros; he esteemed them, but they had not the same place as the Hebrew books in his regard.

    The historian Eusebius attests the widespread doubts in his time; he classes them as antilegomena, or disputed writings, and, like Athanasius, places them in a class intermediate between the books received by all and the apocrypha. ....

    The influence of Origen's and Athanasius's restricted canon naturally spread to the West. St. Hilary of Poitiers and Rufinus followed their footsteps, excluding the deuteros from canonical rank in theory, but admitting them in practice. The latter styles them "ecclesiastical" books, but in authority unequal to the other Scriptures. St. Jerome cast his weighty suffrage on the side unfavourable to the disputed books... (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament, eph. mine)

    ● In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. The prevailing attitude of Western medieval authors is substantially that of the Greek Fathers. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm)

    Luther and the Reformers (overall) treated the Apocrypha as many others did, which was that these books were not to be held as equal to the Scriptures, but were useful and good to read, but not for establishment of doctrine. Luther's Bible included almost all the apocryphal books of the Catholic canon, wanting them to be available despite not being qualified to be classed as Scripture [proper], and therefore he placed apocryphal works between the Old and New Testaments following the ancient practice of Jerome, who had separately placed such at the end of the Old Testament. (The New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocryphal/Deuterocanonical Books, by Michael David Coogan, Marc Zvi Brettler, p. 457)

    More, by the grace of God: https://peacebyjesus.net/ancients_on_scripture.html#2

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  12. Hey Noah,
    of course I do believe Jerome did change his mind.

    This is from letter 118, written in 406 AD, which shows Jerome did indeed change his mind, where he explicitly quotes Sirach as "DIVINE SCRIPTURE":

    Divina Scriptura loquitur: 'Musica in luctu, intempestiva narratio.' (Ecclesiasticus 22:6)

    In English:
    Divine scripture says: a tale out of season is as musick in mourning. Sirach 22:6

    A.E. Breen says this about Jerome quoting Sirach as "divine Scripture":

    "If words can express thoughts, the man who penned these lines believed that he was quoting the inspired word of God ."

    I found an example where Jerome introduces the book of Genesis with the very same words as he does with Sirach (divina scriptura). Its in Epistle 51, 5

    Neque enim dixit Scriptura divina : Deposuit Deus Adam et Evam in terram: sed, eiecit eos de paradiso, et habitare [Vatic. et vetus editio habitare fecit contra paradisum, et non adiecit eos sub paradiso.] fecit eos contra paradisum. Non ait, sub paradiso. Et posuit romphaeam flammeam, et Cherubim custodire introitum ligni vitae [Genes. 3]

    English:
    For the divine Scripture has not said, God put down Adam and Eve upon the earth, but He drove them out of the paradise, and made them dwell over against the paradise. He does not say under the paradise. He placed...cherubims and a flaming sword...to keep the way of the tree of life (Genesis 3)

    This shows that for Jerome later on Sirach was just as "divine scripture" as Genesis was.

    To PeaceByJesus:

    Honestly I don´t care you are quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia. Its a secondary source. Why not using the primary source? The church fathers themselves?

    Tell me, how could Athanasius think that Sirach is not inspired scripture, when he explicitly says that it is the word of the Holy Spirit, just as Psalms is?

    Athanasius:

    "And although, again, he conceal his natural falsehood, and pretend to speak truth with his lips; yet are we 'not ignorant of his devices,' but are able to answer him in the words SPOKEN BY THE SPIRIT against him; 'But unto the ungodly, said God, why do you preach My laws?' (PSALM) AND, 'Praise is not seemly in the mouth of a sinner.' (SIRACH)

    (Athanasius, Letter to the Bishops of Egypt)

    I can give you similar examples from all the church fathers.

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  13. Just saw this response as a result of perusing some past emails, in which Dave said,

    Honestly I don´t care you are quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia. Its a secondary source. Why not using the primary source? The church fathers themselves? Tell me, how could Athanasius think that Sirach is not inspired scripture, when he explicitly says that it is the word of the Holy Spirit, just as Psalms is?

    Honestly, rejecting the Catholic Encyclopedia as a secondary source vs. you, with your selective choices of church fathers which support the larger canon, is pompous presumption.

    For as re Athanasius referring to Sirach as scripture, while denying this as being Scripture,* this is both consistent with words of Enoch being cited as Scripture - thus by your measure this must be part of the canon - and with some books being of edifying use but not Scripture proper, a distinction of old which Luther himself made.

    But Athanasius wrote:

    "there are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read, nor is there in any place a mention of apocryphal writings." (Letter 39)

    Thus Sirach was not Scripture proper. More from the scholarly source you marginalize:

    Obviously, the inferior rank to which the deuteros were relegated by authorities like Origen, Athanasius, and Jerome, was due to too rigid a conception of canonicity, one demanding that a book, to be entitled to this supreme dignity, must be received by all, must have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and must moreover be adapted not only to edification, but also to the "confirmation of the doctrine of the Church", to borrow Jerome's phrase. (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament;

    Thus Luther himself labored to translate and include apocryphal writings in his bible, reflective of his personal private judgment of what was Scripture proper, placing them in a separate section as per an ancient practice, as did Prot Bibles for centuries after before neglecting them to save money (it is said), and likely due to lack of demand.

    For the reality that the CE and so many other sources attest to is that scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon — after the death of Luther.

    And as for (so-called) church fathers themselves being the primary source, as if whatever they wrote is authoritative, the fact is that it is what Rome affirms from these ancients that is authoritative, while the CE is of more weight than your private parroting of propaganda,

    Thus are explained both her respect for the writings of the Fathers of the Church and her supreme independence towards those writings–she judges them more than she is judged by them.” — Catholic Encyclopedia: “Tradition and Living Magisterium” http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm

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  14. @PeaceByJesus
    You said: "Honestly, rejecting the Catholic Encyclopedia as a secondary source vs. you, with your selective choices of church fathers which support the larger canon, is pompous presumption."
    Why? What is of greater value than the primary source in question? Why is an opinion of someone in an encyclopedia relevant, if that person´s expertise is not even Athanasius?
    You are still avoiding my point. Athanasius says that both Psalms and Sirach are the "words of the Holy Spirit". IF that is the case, then there is no question whether Sirach is inspired or not. And then it follows that "canon" means something else. Our understanding of "canon" is different than of the church fathers. Similarly, today many protestants (and also catholics) would not say that "Apocrypha" is an invention of heretics and that is should not be read. But such was the case for church fathers. So you are anachronistically retrojecting the modern meaning of "canon" into Athanasius. But when it comes to the real question, is Sirach the word of the Holy Spirit? Athanasius says yes!
    You said: "For as re Athanasius referring to Sirach as scripture, while denying this as being Scripture,* this is both consistent with words of Enoch being cited as Scripture - thus by your measure this must be part of the canon - and with some books being of edifying use but not Scripture proper, a distinction of old which Luther himself made."
    I have no clue what you are talking about. Athanasius says nothing about Enoch. Enoch was indeed regarded as inspired scripture by some, no doubt about that. To my best knowledge no one said Enoch was just edifying. For the church fathers its either scripture proper or not. Again you are simply reading into your belief into the works of the church fathers.

    Now to the festal letter. Athanasius´s point is not to tell you what is scripture. Athanasius´s point is to be aware of different groups (Jewish, Christian, Heretical, ...) Those that are accepted by all, and hence doctrine can be established in all instances, are those in the "canon", but ... the church has more books which have contain "godliness" just as those in the canon. But the heretical groups also have other books ... apocrypha.
    Here are some articles you should read, if you really just want to go with secondary sources. But these are at least focused on Athanasius himself:
    D. Brakke, A New Fragment of Athanasius's Thirty-Ninth Festal Letter. Heresy, Apocrypha, and the Canon
    P. Piovanelli, Rewriting: The Path from Apocryphal to
    Heretical, In: W. Mayer, B. Neil, Religious Conflict from Early Christianity to the Rise of Islam.
    Both Brakke and Piovanelli confirm, the list has an "antiheretical" agenda, the point is not to tell you the scope of inspired books, the point is to tell you what books you can use and which you should avoid.
    But when you read Leemans, who went in depth, how the book of Wisdom is used by Athanasius, he concluded that there is no difference whatsoever between "those that are read" and those "in the canon", both are divine and inspired:
    https://poj.peeters-leuven.be/content.php?id=504830&url=article
    These are at least robust up to date works with very narrow focus on the issue, unlike the Catholic Encyclopedia.

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  15. John Whitgift (Church of England), as representative of this bestowed esteem, noted in reaction to the Presbyterian’s demand for the Apocrypha’s removal that “the Scripture here called Apocrypha, abusively and unproperly, are holy writings , void of error, part of the Bible."
    Primož Trubar, a Slovenian reformer, held a high view of the deuterocanon, having translated them along with the Old Testament. Instead of sticking to the Jewish canon as authoritative, he cited the longer one of the Council of Trent. Likewise, “in theological discussion he cites some deuterocanonical books as being of equal value to others.”
    Both Justus Jonas and Melanchthon each on separate occasions refer to the Apocrypha as “Scripture.” Jonas references to both Tobit and 2 Maccabees in this way, whereas Melanchthon notes only the latter.
    Zwingli in his 1529 preface to the Zurich Bible, Zwingli called the deuterocanon as “holy books.” And in the Zurich Bible, the deuterocanonical books are placed within the Old Testament after the Historical Books and before the Prophets, affirming their place as part of that collection.
    Heinrich Bullinger, and the First Helvetic Confession written in 1536, in which he played a helping role is also interesting. In that document, the "Apocrypha" are never mentioned nor is the term “canonical scripture.” Instead, the earlier (first) confession simply speaks of a “holy, divine scripture” or “the entire Biblical Scripture.” By not recognizing any difference between canonical and apocryphal/ecclesiastical scriptures, the first Helvetic Confession lumps both equally together. The difference was made only in the Second Helvetic Confession and Bullinger´s later statements. But as M.J. Korpman in the Oxford Handbook of Apocrypha points out:
    "Yet, one should not assume that because these apocryphal books were considered by Bullinger to be noncanonical, that he did not also consider them to be scripture. He expressly states in the confession that the Apocrypha is part of the Old Testament and moreover, in many of his sermons, he expressly affirms or positively cites the Apocrypha, even stating that one of the Apocryphal additions of Daniel is not only true, but rightly considered part of the book of Daniel proper. As such, it is clear that for Bullinger, the apocryphal as well as canonical books could equally be preached from and taught out of from the pulpit, even utilizing them to provide instruction related to doctrine, though not to serve as its basis.
    John Calvin, who although rejecting almost all the Apocrypha, explicitly accepted at various points of his life the book of Baruch as inspired and canonical scripture (1 Cor 10.20). His attitude implicitly was that he neither rejected or accepted the books of the Apocrypha as a whole, but rather chose to make personal decisions as to what works from that collection he deemed inspired.
    And lets not forget about the radical reformers, such as the Anabaptist, Menonites, etc., who (most of them) accepted the deuterocanon as inspired scripture."
    Korpman rightly notes in the Oxford handbook of the Apocrypha: " Although it may surprise many who have assumed, due to popular modern narratives, that the reformers by and large excluded the Apocrypha as both Scripture and inspired literature, the truth is that it was a smaller minority in the sixteenth century who did such."

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  16. Your argument is that for church fathers its either scripture proper or not, yet there was no one uniform position on this prior the death of Luther, and no one so-called "church father" definitively settled the canon.

    And thus arguing for the inclusion of Sirach as scripture proper based upon the opinion of Athanasius does not refute the fact is that scholarly disagreements over the canonicity (proper) of certain books continued down through the centuries and right into Trent, until it provided the first "infallible," indisputable canon — after the death of Luther.

    Which is the issue here, versus the premise of a settled canon that Luther is blamed for changing (who himself did not even settle the Prot canon).

    Which historical reality the officially sanctioned CE itself affirms, which is more weight than your opinion, and rot canon.

    And i pointed out the the Apocrypha was included in Prot Bibles for a long period. I actually consider the Wisdom of Solomon to be the best candidate for inclusion as Scripture proper. But it is unnecessary, though allusions and references to parts of such can be applicable.

    And as for your incomprehension of my analogy btwn Enoch being cited as Scripture yet being excluded as being so, the point is obvious. If a statement from Enoch is even quoted in God-inspired Scripture as being from God, yet the whole of it is not, then a non-inspired ancient referring to Sirach as scripture does not make it so.

    Instead of arguing for your own justification for Sirach as being Scripture, your real argument as a RC should be that only Rome has the authority to settle the canon, under the premise than an infallible authority is essential to assuredly know what is of God.

    And for one to concur with her judgment on any of these books means one should submit to all her judgments, as so many RCs argue

    Which effectively nukes the church.


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  17. @PeaceByJesus
    To your first paragraph: What is scripture "proper"? Something is either the Word of God or not. There is no "proper" and "not proper". I find this argument similar to the unitarian position. They will quote passages to prove the Son is not equal to the father, like "the Son did not know the time", etc. So no matter how many passages you will show that proves same attributes shared by the Son and the Father, they will still appeal to a few passages to deny the divinity of the Son. Same way, in this case you will appeal to a lists, ripped out of context and ignore everything else where a church father uses Sirach the very same way as the protocanon. There is no "scripture proper" and "not proper", same way there is no "God proper" and "God not proper". Of course the Father is unique in a way, he is not begotten like the Son is. But both share the same nature and essence. Same way all scripture share the same nature - the Word of the Holy Spirit - as Athanasius says about Sirach. But from a different angle (like universal acceptance among Jews and Christians) they might be viewed differently. Just as the Son is GOD, same way scripture is the Word of God. There is nothing in between in any of these cases. There is no semi-God or semi-Scripture. But if you insist, then you have a problem, cause e.g. Cyril of Jerusalem, Amphilochius and others exclude Revelation. Jerome says in letter 129, Revelation is not in the canon for the whole East. So how are you consistent with lists?

    Trent was infallible indeed, but the Church spoke authentically in his magisterium even before, like in Florence which was an ecumenical council. Its not "infallible" or "nothing". Anything that is "magisterial" should be followed, and is the authentic expression of the whole church. Your argument is flawed, you don´t understand how the magisterium works. CE is not a magisterial work at all, its just a book. You have no clue what you are talking about.

    Regarding Enoch, I do believe those who cited it as scripture, e.g. Tertullian, believed it was inspired scripture. Tertullian vehemently defends it, because Jude cited it. But, e.g. when it comes to Origen, first he cites it, but later rejects it because as he says "its not read in the churches". So sometimes a father can express his opinion, but sometimes a father tells you what is actually scripture in the church. Now I don´t think (in line with some protestants) that Jude cited it as scripture. He says Enoch "prophesied". That is a little bit ambiguous and does not necessarily point to a book. He is not saying "scripture" or "it is written". I.e. we don´t know whether Jude actually took it from a book, or whether he was referring to something more abstract like a tradition.

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  18. Pt. 1:

    To your first paragraph: What is scripture "proper"? Something is either the Word of God or not. There is no "proper" and "not proper". I find this argument similar to the unitarian position.

    No, the only analogy to the Trinity is that the Father is the head, yet the Son and Spirit are one in being, sharing the same Divine nature as the Father, in distinction from other deities, as manifest by His enduring manifest power and qualities. Which is akin to the NT both being wholly God-inspired as the OT, which writings came to be recognized as being of God based upon their heavenly qualities and attestation.

    And which OT writings the Lord Jesus Himself invoked as in "all the Scriptures" (Luke 24:27,44-45) as did the NT church. And without any evident conflict with those who sat in the seat of Moses, which held to the Palestinian canon.

    And thus it is the "Protestant canon" that has the great antiquity. And which is affirmed in Catholicism: “the protocanonical books of the Old Testament correspond with those of the Bible of the Hebrews, and the Old Testament as received by Protestants.” “...the Hebrew Bible, which became the Old Testament of Protestantism.” (The Catholic Encyclopedia>Canon of the Old Testament; htttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm) The Protestant canon of the Old Testament is the same as the Palestinian canon. (The Catholic Almanac, 1960, p. 217)

    Of course, you can simply reject the weight of such scholarship versus your own and selective use of s-called "church fathers. And as for "Scripture proper," that is a distinction made by certain church fathers, as testified to in RC scholarship:

    An analysis of Jerome's expressions on the deuterocanonicals, in various letters and prefaces, yields the following results: first, he strongly doubted their inspiration; secondly, the fact that he occasionally quotes them, and translated some of them as a concession to ecclesiastical tradition...

    Obviously, the inferior rank to which the deuteros were relegated by authorities like Origen, Athanasius, and Jerome, was due to too rigid a conception of canonicity, one demanding that a book, to be entitled to this supreme dignity, must be received by all, must have the sanction of Jewish antiquity, and must moreover be adapted not only to edification, but also to the "confirmation of the doctrine of the Church", to borrow Jerome's phrase. (Catholic Encyclopedia, Canon of the Old Testament)

    Adversary of Luther, theologian Cardinal Cajetan stated, in his Commentary on All the Authentic Historical Books of the Old Testament (dedicated to Pope Clement VII ):

    "Here we close our commentaries on the historical books of the Old Testament. For the rest (that is, Judith, Tobit, and the books of Maccabees) are counted by St. Jerome out of the canonical books, and are placed amongst the apocrypha, along with Wisdom and Ecciesiasticus, as is plain from the Protogus Galeatus.

    Now, according to his judgment, in the epistle to the bishops Chromatius and Heliodorus, these books (and any other like books in the canon of the Bible) are not canonical, that is, not in the nature of a rule for confirming matters of faith. Yet, they may be called canonical, that is, in the nature of a rule for the edification of the faithful, as being received and authorised in the canon of the Bible for that purpose. By the help of this distinction thou mayest see thy way clearly through that which Augustine says, and what is written in the provincial council of Carthage.” . ("A Disputation on Holy Scripture" by William Whitaker (Cambridge: University, 1849), p. 48

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  19. Pt. 2, by the grace of God.:
    And which OT writings were established as being of God without any self-proclaimed "infallible" (but not inspired) council.

    Trent was infallible indeed, which is simply absurd bombast, as ensured perpetual magisterial veracity (EPMV) as per Rome is nowhere promised nor seen in Scripture, neither is this essential for authority and assurance.

    Yet Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares, and presumes protection from at least salvific error in non-infallible magisterial teaching on faith and morals.

    Your argument is flawed, you don´t understand how the magisterium works.

    Oh, I do understand how it works, versus your wishful imagination. And which includes its 3 (or 4 according to some) levels, and required submission, while being subject to variant interpretations by the members of Rome's diverse prelates and other members.

    Church spoke authentically "Authentically?" Whatever do you want that to mean as to require submission? All papal bulls and encyclicals? And as if these were not subject to variant interpretations. Thus Catholicism not exists with various sects, while Rome manifestly treats even proabortion, prohomosexual public figures as members in life and in death.

    And so it was that “The Council of Trent definitively settled the matter of the OT Canon."

    And "That this had not been done previously is apparent from the uncertainty that persisted up to the time of Trent." (New Catholic Encyclopedia, Catholic University of America , 2003, Vol. 3, pp. 20,26. To which reality much more of Catholic scholarship attests .

    As for, "anything that is "magisterial" should be followed, and is "the authentic expression of the whole church," you can only imagine that this is and was the case, which would leave the many RC scholars who disagreed on the canonical status of certain books of the deuteros to be in disobedient to Rome, which is simply reading into history what you can only wish was that case . Even the position of Luther on the deuteros was not a charge in his excommunication.

    Regarding Enoch,... I don´t think (in line with some protestants) that Jude cited it as scripture. He says Enoch "prophesied".

    That alone is certainly enough for RCs who argue that even a statement in the Bible that is similar to something in the deuteros validates that latter as being canonical Scripture.

    Regardless of this and what certain ECF held to, the real issue remains that of the claimed authority of Rome, as if being what she essentially claims, that being the essential historical discerners of what is of God - men and writings, and the stewards of Scripture, means that all her judgments as to who and what is of God must be followed. Thank God that presumption is not valid.

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  20. Luke 24:27,44-45 doesn´t tell you which books are meant here.

    Your quote regarding the Cetholic Encyclopedia (CE) and Hebrew bible, it simply reflects that the protestants accept the same books as the Hebrews. It doesn´t follow its the same collection as the Jews had in the 1st century and before the turn of the era. There were sects with various opinions on the canon.

    But If you say I "simply reject the weight of such scholarship" as the CE is , then I hope you will be consistent and affirm these from the CE as well, and you won´t be cherry-picking:

    The Kéthubim, or Hagiographa Completion of the Jewish Canon

    Critical opinion as to date ranged from c. 165 B.C. to the middle of the second century of our era (Wildeboer). The Catholic scholars Jahn, Movers, Nickes, Danko, Haneberg, Aicher, without sharing all the views of the advanced exegetes, regard the Hebrew Hagiographa as not definitely settled TILL AFTER CHRIST. IT IS AND INCONTESTABLE FACT that the sacredness of certain parts of the Palestinian Bible (Esther, Ecclesiastes, Canticle of Canticles) was disputed by some rabbis as late as the second century of the Christian Era (Mishna, Yadaim, III, 5; Babylonian Talmud, Megilla, fol. 7).

    So if you want to argue with using Cajetan (who by the way originaly accepted the deuterocanon, just later rejected it and who also rejected some NT books like Hebrew), that there was no Catholic canon, until .... because Cajetan rejected it, then using the same standard, the Jews did not have a canon until much later, later than the 2nd century AD, since some books were disputed and contested. So are you going to be consistent in your argumentation or you are going to use the same argument against the Catholic canon, but inconsistently ignore it in favour of the protestant canon?

    So you are going to cite Whitaker, as some kind of reliable scholar, but when I show you modern-day, scholars who present up-to date research, are not reliable? On what basis? Where is your consistency?

    I am not even going to react to your statements in the second comment. You are moving goal posts there and insulting. That is apparently all you can do, since you are not even interested in a normal dialogue. This is my last comment, you can have the last word, the whole dialogue is mute at this point.

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  21. Justus Jonas and Melanchthon each on separate occasions refer to the Apocrypha as
    “Scripture.”. Zwingli called the deuterocanon as “holy books.” in the Zurich Bible, the deuterocanonical books are placed within the Old Testament... M.J. Korpman..one should not assume that because these apocryphal books were considered by Bullinger to be noncanonical, that he did not also consider them to be scripture...Calvin...explicitly accepted at various points of his life the book of Baruch as inspired and canonical scripture (1 Cor 10.20). ..Anabaptist, Menonites, etc., who (most of them) accepted the deuterocanon as inspired scripture."


    What! Catholics have long railed on Luther as if he, as a type of maverick on this issue, set the canon for Protestantism, and now you list a bunch whom your find did not, at least not wholly.

    However, this is simply another vain attempt at listing some sort of "fathers" who clearly or by inference affirmed apocryphal books, at least one or more, while ignoring those who did not, at least not all.

    And yet such selective support does not equate to the deuteros being what the Lord referred to as "the Scriptures" in refuting the devil and those who sat in the seat of Moses, and His prophetic fulfillment to the disciples.

    Regardless, despite RC attempts to support their church by appeal to Scripture and or history, as a RC, the assurance of your position must not rest upon the weight of substantiation as it is to be with a Bible Christian, but assurance rests upon of the the novel and unscriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial veracity (EPMV) of office. For under this presumption, then Tradition, history and Scripture only authoritatively consists of and means what she says. As notably exampled in the presumption of the of the Assumption .

    As explicitly asserted by no less than the famous Cardinal Manning:

    It was the charge of the Reformers that the Catholic doctrines were not primitive, and their pretension was to revert to antiquity. But the appeal to antiquity is both a treason and a heresy. It is a treason because it rejects the Divine voice of the Church at this hour, and a heresy because it denies that voice to be Divine... I may say in strict truth that the Church has no antiquity....Primitive and modern are predicates, not of truth, but of ourselves...The only Divine evidence to us of what was primitive is the witness and voice of the Church at this hour. — Dr. Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, Archbishop of Westminster, The Temporal Mission of the Holy Ghost: Or Reason and Revelation (New York: J.P. Kenedy & Sons, originally written 1865, reprinted with no date), pp. 227-228.

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  22. Your quote regarding the Cetholic Encyclopedia (CE) and Hebrew bible, it simply reflects that the protestants accept the same books as the Hebrews. It doesn´t follow its the same collection as the Jews had in the 1st century and before the turn of the era .

    You mean,

    "The Protestant canon of the Old Testament is the same as the Palestinian canon." (The Catholic Almanac, 1960, p. 217)

    But If you say I "simply reject the weight of such scholarship" as the CE is , then I hope you will be consistent and affirm these from the CE as well, and you won´t be cherry-picking:


    Selective quotes are certainly fitting, when credible, and esp. in documenting scholarship, and some sources have more weight than others.

    The Catholic scholars Jahn, Movers, Nickes, Danko, Haneberg, Aicher, without sharing all the views of the advanced exegetes, regard the Hebrew Hagiographa as not definitely settled TILL AFTER CHRIST. IT IS AND INCONTESTABLE FACT that the sacredness of certain parts of the Palestinian Bible (Esther, Ecclesiastes, Canticle of Canticles) was disputed by some rabbis as late as the second century of the Christian Era (Mishna, Yadaim, III, 5; Babylonian Talmud, Megilla, fol. 7).


    What is this? The Lord Jesus refers to "all the Scriptures" and to which He opens the mind of the disciples to this tripartite canon, " (Lk. 24:27, 44,45) and thus Paul etc. reasons out of them and Apollos "mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ," (et there was not authoritative canon until much later than the 2nd century AD??? Which source has more weight here?

    Your problem is with the Lord and His disciples who certainly had an authoritative canon to refer to, and which would be the Palestinian one, and those who sat in the seat of Moses *at that time* never disputed their references to it as being authoritative Scripture.

    Other researchers state,

    By the first century, it is clear that the Pharisees held to the twenty-two or twenty-four book canon, and it was this canon that eventually became the canon of Rabbinic Judaism because the majority of those who founded the Jewish faith after the destruction of Jerusalem were Pharisees. (Timothy Lim. University of Edinburgh; https://www.ancientjewreview.com/articles/2015/12/1/understanding-the-emergence-of-the-jewish-canon)

    "For the Jews of Palestine the limits of the canon (the term is Christian, and was not used in Judaism) were rigidly fixed; they drew a sharp line of demarcation between the books which 'defiled the hands''', i.e. were sacred, and other religiously edifying writings. The outlook of the Jewish communities outside Palestine tended to be much more elastic. (J. N. D. KELLY, EARLY CHRISTIAN DOCTRINES, FOURTH EDITION, ADAM & CHARLES BLACK LONDON, p. 53 )

    Meanwhile, you certainly (?) are not ignorant of the fact that it was far more than Cajetan that held to a smaller canon, for as shown you, In the Latin Church, all through the Middle Ages [5th century to the 15th century] we find evidence of hesitation about the character of the deuterocanonicals. There is a current friendly to them, another one distinctly unfavourable to their authority and sacredness, while wavering between the two are a number of writers whose veneration for these books is tempered by some perplexity as to their exact standing, and among those we note St. Thomas Aquinas. Few are found to unequivocally acknowledge their canonicity. The prevailing attitude of Western medieval authors is substantially that of the Greek Fathers. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm)

    And thus we must go to the heart of the issue, that of your actual basis of a faithful RC for the their canon being correct one, which is not based upon disputations about history, but the authority of Rome.

    To be continued due to character limit, while Blogger also seems to be removing my Scripture references.

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  23. I am not even going to react to your statements in the second comment. You are moving goal posts there and insulting. That is apparently all you can do, since you are not even interested in a normal dialogue. This is my last comment, you can have the last word, the whole dialogue is mute at this point.

    Rather, it is YOU who is ignoring The goal post, as you can hardly be ignorant of the reality that your real argument is that of the authority of Rome, with trust and submission to her, without which one cannot be sure of the contents of the Bible.

    As stated by those of more weight than thee:

    "People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high."(Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, "Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith, p. 72). ...the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities..." - Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium

    Thus, in order to avoid circularity, a recourse in Catholic apologetics is, "when we appeal to the Scriptures for proof of the Church's infallible authority we appeal to them merely as reliable historical sources, and abstract altogether from their inspiration." (Catholic Encyclopedia > Infallibility)

    Which absurdly presumes that the subject of conversion would see that the RCC is of God even though he cannot see the Bible is. The EO's claim similarly though

    For the presumption of Rome is as Cardinal Manning described, and thus submission to Rome, under the above premise is what you should be defending, versus arguing as we do based upon evidential warrant for doctrines.

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