Sitting in my hotel room this morning I came across this clip of a man confronted by two young Mormon missionaries. In the end, it was rather a man confronting two Mormon missionaries. These Mormon kids end up like deer caught in the headlights by the end of the clip. Sure, it's easy to chuckle at them squirming. But as you watch the clip, notice... that's all that happens.
Perhaps these young men were challenged to rethink their Mormonism. Perhaps.
If you're going to rip someones beliefs down, I don't think that is enough. That's just... riping someones beliefs down. Wouldn't a less harsh approach against these particular Mormons been more appropriate? Wouldn't at least an attempt to present the Gospel have been a requirement of interaction? Lest anyone thinks I'm pointing fingers, the first finger pointed was directly at myself.
We have some very good Mormon friends; "archmormons" I like to say--very high in their ward or stake. They have not actually read the Bible.
ReplyDeleteWhen you want to discuss a passage, they come with a list of "cross-references" which make no sense.
It was the comments afterwards that smacked of pride. But otherwise, as far as my experience with the Mormon missionaries locally, they got put in their place as they should have been. Most of them know nothing of the Scripture and merely invite people to the Mormon movie they show. If anything they can only quote the Bk of Mormon when challenged about anything. But if 'we'all believe the Bible" how come we can't talk about it? That was a solid hit. And from there it was downhill for our two young gentlemen.
ReplyDeleteWouldn't a less harsh approach against these particular Mormons been more appropriate? Wouldn't a least an attempt to present the Gospel have been a requirement of interaction? Lest anyone thinks I'm pointing fingers, the first finger pointed was directly at myself.
ReplyDeleteJames,
I agree with you, the brother forgot the last part of 1 Peter 3:15, "with gentleness and respect". And I have done that before also, in the heat of the moment; and that is not good.
and PRV is right about the pride at the end.
It was not glorifying to God, even though he was right that the Bible is true and Joseph Smith was a false prophet.
We can be right; but if the way we deal with people is not done right, we loose and God is not glorified.
I had similar feelings when I first watched this, which was quite some time ago. What I immediately noticed at the end of the clip was how much more patient the Mormons were than the black guy (yes I'll say "black" since blacks call other black people "black" - get over it). They patiently let him act like an idiot, and that's probably all they remember about him.
ReplyDeleteI've been listening to Ernest Riesinger lately, a wonderful Reformed man with a huge heart for the gospel (and his book 'The law and the Gospel' changed my life), and he said "so many Calvinist Christians have a foundation to their house but then they have no doors or windows, while others try to have all the doors and windows but have no foundation". I really love that man.
Seems like this post and the comment thread is about condemnation. Condemning both the Mormon missionaries and the black fellow who engaged in counter-apologetics with the Mormon missionaries.
ReplyDeleteTo some limited degree I understand James Swan's condemnation of the Christian's attitude in his rebuttal to the Mormon missionary.
To some limited degree I understand James Swan's condemnation of the Christian's attitude in his rebuttal to the Mormon missionary.
ReplyDeleteI'm all for proclaiming the gospel and knowing full well it is an offense to sinners.
Rather, I'm against offensive people. sometimes the dividing line can be hard to determine. With this video clip, I don't think it is.
I once had a regularly visiting Jehova's Witness who laughed with every sentence he made much like this guy.
ReplyDeleteIt was highly annoying and profited none of us.
Rats. I'm using my wife's account and not mine. -Mike
ReplyDeleteIt is refreshing to have such humility and willingness to self-examine oneself displayed by Mr Swan and I agree with his assessment. I too am guilty of such things at times.
ReplyDeleteOne of the things Reformed folk are sometimes often accused of is an unswerving devotion to doctrine but a failure to exemplify and demonstrate "gentleness and respect" and a love for those with whom we speak. If we do not proclaim the gospel from a motive of love, and instead promote it from a desire to triumph intellectually over others, what is the point? Ungodly methods lead to ungodly results, sometimes even with the purest of doctrine.
Here are some bizarre quotes from Mormons:
ReplyDelete-Joseph Smith's Cosmology:
"The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform than the inhabitants of the earth, being about six feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years."
-A Quote from Mormon President Brigham Young in Regards to Cosmology:
"So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun...Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 13, p. 271)
-Mormonism Preaches a Works-Based Gospel:
"One cannot get into the kingdom of God upon the principle of faith alone, or repentance alone, or receiving the Holy Ghost alone. He will have to be baptized, go down in the water, and come up out of the water, and have hands laid upon him for the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is the procedure that was followed by the apostles of Christ. That is the procedure of the Church today. It is the only way." (Rudger Clawson, Conference Reports, October 1932, p.9)
-An Example from the Book Of Mormon Revealing Mormonism's Racist History on Native American Indians:
"they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them." (2 Nephi 5:21)
-Mormons Celebrate the Disobedience of Adam and Eve:
"And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end. And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin. But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who oweth all things. Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy." (2 Nephi 2:22-25)
-The Incredible Arrogance of Joseph Smith:
"Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet...When they can get rid of me, the devil will also go." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 408, 409)
-Mormons Believe That the Garden of Eden is Located in the State of Missouri:
"The Garden Of Eden was in Missouri. Noah was taken to the old world by the flood. This teaching was given by Joseph Smith and is still accepted as true doctrine. Given this teaching, Mormons have to accept the flood as a global phenomena" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, "Adam-Ondi-Ahman", p. 19-20)
Remarks from Joseph Fielding Smith, the Tenth Mormon President, on Man Reaching the Moon:
"We will never get a man into space. This earth is man's sphere and it was never intended that he should get away from it. The moon is a superior planet to the earth and it was never intended that man should go there. You can write it down in your books that this will never happen." (Honolulu Stake Conference 1961)
For a more basic overview of Mormon doctrine, see this article:
https://rationalchristiandiscernment.blogspot.com/2019/01/mormonism-christian-or-cult.html
I've not done a lot of study on Mormonism, simply because in my area, there are very few Mormons. In fact, I don't recall having come into contact with an actual Mormon in the last 10 years.
ReplyDeleteHere was the video that I think was originally on this old blog post- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVmP7t_EsyA