1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation…
1277 Baptism...is necessary for salvation, as is the Church herself...
183 Faith is necessary for salvation…
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation…
980 …This sacrament of Penance is necessary for salvation…
846 ...the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation...
1816 …Service of and witness to the faith are necessary for salvation…
1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
837 …Even though incorporated into the Church, one who does not however persevere in charity is not saved.
2036 The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation…
2068 …so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.
Council of Trent:
CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.
CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.
Catechism of St. Pius:
39 Q: What are the conditions necessary to obtain Heaven?
A: The conditions necessary to obtain Heaven are the grace of God, the practice of good works, and perseverance until death in His holy love.
Baltimore Catechism
Q. 476. Is grace necessary to salvation?
A. Grace is necessary to salvation, because without grace we can do nothing to merit heaven.
Q. 477. Can we resist the grace of God?
A. We can, and unfortunately often do, resist the grace of God.
Q. 478. Is it a sin knowingly to resist the grace of God?
A. It is a sin, knowingly, to resist the grace of God, because we thereby insult Him and reject His gifts without which we cannot be saved.
Q. 479. Does God give His grace to every one?
A. God gives to everyone He creates sufficient grace to save his soul; and if persons do not save their souls, it is because they have not used the grace given.
I am reminded again of the inconsistency of post-Vatican Council II theology of today's Roman Catholicism. What exactly is the historical Roman Catholic position on salvation? According to official Roman Catholic teaching, people like Protestants and Muslims can now be saved. Of course, we know that this is something unheard of centuries ago. The curse of the Council of Trent is still upon us Protestants. How then can be saved according to Roman Catholic teaching?
ReplyDeleteThanks for the post. It also reminded me of Mr. Gerry Matatics.
"According to official Roman Catholic teaching, people like Protestants and Muslims can now be saved."
ReplyDeletePerhaps you should be more concerned with working out your own salvation.
What "curse" are you referring to? Muslims who reject Christ cannot be saved, no Catholic document says otherwise.
ReplyDeleteI never thought I'd see a post on this blog that I could give an unqualified "amen" to.
ReplyDeleteThere's a first time for everything, I guess.
Muslims who reject Christ cannot be saved, no Catholic document says otherwise.
ReplyDeleteBut do they need to accept Christ to be saved? Can they reject the Catholic Church and be saved?
Any Muslim who learns the truth about Christ, yet still rejects him, cannot be saved.
ReplyDeleteAny Muslim who learns the truth about Christ, yet still rejects him, cannot be saved.
ReplyDeletekmerian, you make me laugh. Are you a lawyer or a politician by chance?
You didn't answer my questions but I think I know the answer.
"Muslims who reject Christ cannot be saved, no Catholic document says otherwise."
ReplyDeleteMany Roman Catholics (including those at Catholic Answers) interpret RC teaching otherwise, claiming that "invincible ignorance" compels most Muslims to reject the Trinity, and that their rejection of Christ doesn't exclude them from salvation.
Why would Muslims need to even hear about Christ? Would they? They are already included in the plan of salvation and adore along with us the One True God, after all.
ReplyDeleteCarrie,
ReplyDeleteThere is some additional juice left to be squeezed in 1257:
1257 ... Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude ... God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
It's necessary - but it's not really necessary.
-Turretinfan
Rhology,
ReplyDeleteYour comment was nicely Calvinist. Why do any of the elect need to hear about Christ? If they are elect, they are elect.
Carrie,
Elsewhere you said "I don’t define faith in the same way you do – as a list of revelations that must be believed. My saving faith comes from my justification before God, by grace and received through faith. I look more to my faith as a proof of my justification (by those things which I believe which I outlined in my longer comment up above). My faith is in Christ to save me by grace through faith as promised in his Word."
So, you get justified to get saving faith which gets you justified. Got it.
You also said "But at a basic level, Catholic salvation involves a fair amount of human effort – it is by no way obtained through faith alone."
Who is conflating justification and sanctification here? Salvation does consist of these aspects. Salvation is not obtained by faith alone. Salvation is obtained by grace alone, through faith and a living, working faith at that, which God graciously gives and which He is right to expect us to live out by constant reliance upon Him and repentance. Initial monergism, subsequent synergism.
Turretinfan,
ReplyDeleteI would ordinarily presume you were being ironic, especially in light of what Turretin taught regarding infant faith and baptism, but, sadly, I know you are not.
Carrie, any Muslim who hears the good news and rejects that Christ is the savior and the son of God, cannot be saved. I don't care what any liberal Catholic says. Even Catholic answers has this one wrong. The only way Salvation is even possible without acknowledging Christ, is if you are completely unaware of Christ, through no fault of your own.
ReplyDeleteThe Church is the body of Christ, you cannot reject the body but accept the head.
Ree, intractable ignorance states that if a person never hears the Gospel, God will not punish them for rejecting it, because they were never given an opportunity to accept or reject.
Rho, you are misquoting Vatican II, yes, Muslims worship the one true God, that alone will not save them, because they deny the sonship of Christ, they are included in the plan of salvation because even though they worship the one true God, God wishes them to be saved through Jesus Christ.
So, you get justified to get saving faith which gets you justified. Got it.
ReplyDeleteMike,
I find explaining saving faith from my point of view a bit easier, but my POV needs to incorporate God's POV.
I am saved BY grace THROUGH Faith (Eph 2:8).
Who is conflating justification and sanctification here? Salvation does consist of these aspects.
Justification in Protestant and Catholic theology is different so I try to simply things by just talking about salvation - what will get us to heaven. I do not cooperate in my justification, you do.
It's necessary - but it's not really necessary.
ReplyDeleteYes, I find there is always a loophole in modern-day Catholicism ;)
The Church is the body of Christ, you cannot reject the body but accept the head.
ReplyDelete"...For those, however, who have not received the Gospel proclamation, as I wrote in the Encyclical Redemptoris Missio, salvation is accessible in mysterious ways, inasmuch as divine grace is granted to them by virtue of Christ's redeeming sacrifice, without external membership in the Church, but nonetheless always in relation to her (cf. RM 10). It is a mysterious relationship. It is mysterious for those who receive the grace, because they do not know the Church and sometimes even outwardly reject her. It is also mysterious in itself, because it is linked to the saving mystery of grace, which includes an essential reference to the Church the Savior founded." -JPII
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html
I am saved BY grace THROUGH Faith (Eph 2:8).
ReplyDeletePlease tell me what faith means here. Please tell me how you know. Please do so from Scripture alone.
"Justification in Protestant and Catholic theology is different so I try to simply things by just talking about salvation - what will get us to heaven. I do not cooperate in my justification, you do."
In simplifying you complicate. If, as you say, you are justified by faith alone, how did you get that faith? Were you justified then got faith so you could be justified? Or is "regeneration" the loophole you'll use? If so, you can be regenerated apart from faith, which sounds to me like a contradiction, since regeneration is also a part of what "gets you to heaven." Also, it would seem that, in making the issue "what gets you to heaven," faith alone won't do. You surely don't mean to assert antinomianism, and you surely don't mean to assert that justification alone is all that comprises salvation.
The person is what gets saved, and the persos consists of a union of body and soul. The soul consists, at least minimally of reason and the will. If you insist that you do not cooperate in your justification in any sense, then you are insisting (even unwittingly) that the will remains unsaved even as the rest of the person gets saved, which is an impossibility. This is because the will must be changed and become willing to belong to the Lord, to do His will, to repent, etc. It must cooperate, contrary to your assertion that you do not cooperate. The matter is more nuanced and complex than you would have us believe.
ReplyDelete"What "curse" are you referring to? Muslims who reject Christ cannot be saved, no Catholic document says otherwise."
ReplyDeleteRemember the anathemas of Trent against Protestants?
"1257 ... Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament. The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude ... God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
It's necessary - but it's not really necessary."
Here's the inconsistency. You need to be baptized, but you don't have to.
"Your comment was nicely Calvinist. Why do any of the elect need to hear about Christ? If they are elect, they are elect."
Read Romans Chapter 10. Sinners must hear the Gospel first before they can believe.
"Rho, you are misquoting Vatican II, yes, Muslims worship the one true God, that alone will not save them, because they deny the sonship of Christ, they are included in the plan of salvation because even though they worship the one true God, God wishes them to be saved through Jesus Christ."
The claims of Vatican Council II have undermined the urgency of the Gospel. Evangelism is virtually useless since people can be saved apart from knowing and believing in Christ. This is not what the Roman Catholic church has historically believed. Moreover, this inclusivistic understanding of salvation contradicts passages like John 14:6.
Also, it would seem that, in making the issue "what gets you to heaven," faith alone won't do. You surely don't mean to assert antinomianism, and you surely don't mean to assert that justification alone is all that comprises salvation.
ReplyDeleteMike,
Wasn't it you who said your were a Calvinist prior to becoming RC? If so, you must certainly be familiar with regeneration/faith/justification and justification vs santification.
"Ree, intractable ignorance states that if a person never hears the Gospel, God will not punish them for rejecting it, because they were never given an opportunity to accept or reject."
ReplyDeleteThat's not how virtually every other Roman Catholic I've discussed it with has interpreted RC teaching. They all say that those who are predisposed to reject Christian teaching because their background prejudices them against it can be saved because their prejudice can be no fault of their own and can result in invincible ignorance.
Where's that infallible interpreter when you need it?
Romans chapter 1 shows that "invincible ignorance" is a punishment imposed by God on those who do not like to retain God in their knowledge, and that rather than saving it condemns.
ReplyDeleteCarrie, John Paul is clear in what he is saying. Even someone who appears to outwardly reject the earthly church, can actually be part of the true Church of Christ and not even realize it. These are people who are slaves to the prejudices that they were taught. And only reject that which they do not understand.
ReplyDeleteEven someone who appears to outwardly reject the earthly church, can actually be part of the true Church of Christ and not even realize it. These are people who are slaves to the prejudices that they were taught. And only reject that which they do not understand.
ReplyDeleteACtually, that isn't clear at all.
How do you know when someone has truly rejected versus ignorantly rejected?
"Is grace necessary to salvation?
ReplyDeleteA. Grace is necessary to salvation, because without grace we can do nothing to merit heaven."
And the Catholic definition of Grace: UNMERITED favor.
E i E
Carrie, it is not important for me to know. God knows.
ReplyDeleteBut, it is often quite obvious those who ignorantly reject the church. They are the ones who hold fanciful beliefs about the church, or believe outlandish conspiracy thories, or believe every piece of anticatholic propaganda that comes their way.
Don't trust kmerian. He is a Vatican spy gathering information for the Vatican supercomputer.
ReplyDelete"John Paul is clear in what he is saying. Even someone who appears to outwardly reject the earthly church, can actually be part of the true Church of Christ and not even realize it. These are people who are slaves to the prejudices that they were taught. And only reject that which they do not understand."
ReplyDeleteSo now you acknowledge that your church teaches that someone can reject Christ and still be saved. So why do you suppose God is unwilling or unable to "unbrainwash" those prejudiced and gullible unbelieving faithful ones?
Carrie,
ReplyDeleteOf course I understand the distinctions. Let me ask you a couple of questions:
You are regenerated prior to faith, correct?
When was Abraham regenerated?