tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post8898316782609579379..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: TraditionJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-5688740865541963132016-07-05T10:41:33.943-04:002016-07-05T10:41:33.943-04:00And Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of Me...And Jesus said, "Do this in remembrance of Me" <br />1 Corinthians 11:24<br /><br />Luke 22:19-20Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-81584375359090702642016-07-05T10:38:02.791-04:002016-07-05T10:38:02.791-04:00Why celebrate the Lord's Supper to "recal...<i>Why celebrate the Lord's Supper to "recall" what Jesus did for you when Baptism is the same purpose to "recall" what Jesus did for you?</i><br /><br />Because baptism is a one-time event/experience connected with initial repentance and faith in Christ - Luke 24:46-47; 13:1-5; 5:32; Acts 2:38; 3:19; Acts 17:30; 26:20<br /><br />whereas the Lord's supper is an ongoing continuation that is connected with perseverance, abiding, and sanctification of the person.<br /><br />John 6:55 - definitional to abiding in Christ - continuing, dwelling with Christ, remaining in Him. John 15:1-16<br /><br />We need reminders since we are weak and forget (2 Peter chapter 1) and can drift away. (Hebrews 2, 3, 4)<br /><br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-61934654186255626552016-07-01T12:38:00.928-04:002016-07-01T12:38:00.928-04:00Ken,
In case you were curious, I wrote a new arti...Ken, <br />In case you were curious, I wrote a new article on the incoherence of the Protestant view of the Sacraments. If the Sacraments are merely an outward testimony of what Jesus has already done for you, then it basically makes Baptism and Lord's Supper indistinguishable from each other. Why celebrate the Lord's Supper to "recall" what Jesus did for you when Baptism is the same purpose to "recall" what Jesus did for you?Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-28616958045511732016-06-18T20:20:17.697-04:002016-06-18T20:20:17.697-04:00Algo,
Good job !!
I have not had time to digest e...Algo,<br />Good job !!<br /><br />I have not had time to digest everything, but you are providing all the evidence that the Roman Catholics need.<br /><br />Thanks for the quote from Anthony Lane's article on Scripture and Tradition - that is a very important article.<br /><br />The links and quotes and references from King and Webster's books are great.<br /><br />Thanks bro!Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-15843626628190737362016-06-18T20:18:27.418-04:002016-06-18T20:18:27.418-04:00And it bothers him [ Nick the Catholic ]that his a...<i>And it bothers him [ Nick the Catholic ]that his argument is not taken seriously. </i><br /><br />Thanks Joey Henry for excellent analysis. You pretty much wrote better what I was trying to say.<br />Always appreciate your thoughtful comments here.<br /><br />I am amazed that Nick things those are even good arguments to make. <br />KenKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-11390263754581867622016-06-18T15:47:16.701-04:002016-06-18T15:47:16.701-04:00"In Galatians 1:14, Paul makes reference to &...<b>"In Galatians 1:14, Paul makes reference to 'the traditions of my fathers' and in Colossians 2:8, 'the tradition of men'. Charles Hodge notes that Galatians 1:14 and Colossians 2:8 are references 'to what is human and untrustworthy...and frequently in the gospels of the elders.'<br /><br />Only in the remaining three instances (1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Thess. 2:15, 3:6), where the noun (paradosis) appears, do we find binding Christian tradition in the New Testament. In each of these, the apostle makes reference to authoritative apostolic tradition which he had 'delivered' (1 Cor. 11:2), 'taught' (2 Thess. 2:15), or 'commanded' (2 Thess. 3:6).<br /><br />In all three cases, the tradition(s) to which he referred could be objectively identified by his readers.<br /><br />These traditions were not something awaiting the future development of a living voice because, firstly, they had already been 'delivered' to the Corinthians who were 'keeping' them (1 Cor. 11:2), and secondly, they had already been 'taught' to the Thessalonians who were commanded to 'stand fast' in them and 'hold them' (2 Thess. 2:15). Thirdly, they were commanded to 'walk' according to them, clearly indicating that the Thessalonians were already acquainted with them (2 Thess. 3:6).<br /><br />This being the case, not one of these texts supports the modern Roman view that 'tradition' in the New Testament can refer to a future unfolding of doctrinal development, or unidentified dogma awaiting future definition.<br /><br />Why? Because the Church was already in possession of these traditions. They were already 'keeping' them, 'holding' them, and 'walking' in them.<br /><br />The verbs used to describe the relationship of these traditions to Christian observance make no sense unless they had already been identified and defined. Every reference to 'tradition' in these passages has to do with doctrinal or moral rules already delivered." </b><br /><br />David T. King Vol I Holy Scripture: The Ground and Pillar of Our Faith p.112Algohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11166837376395639695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-54662212649759114502016-06-18T15:17:27.990-04:002016-06-18T15:17:27.990-04:00Also:
http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2008/04/tra...Also:<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow">http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2008/04/tradition-distinguished-abuse-of-2.html</a>Algohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11166837376395639695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-10660012819846922562016-06-18T15:14:16.725-04:002016-06-18T15:14:16.725-04:00And Regarding 2 Thes 2:15
http://turretinfan.blog...And Regarding 2 Thes 2:15<br /><br /><a rel="nofollow">http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2008/04/2-thess-215-comments-answered.html</a>Algohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11166837376395639695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-14217137500090346152016-06-18T14:47:58.400-04:002016-06-18T14:47:58.400-04:00A great presentation on 2 Tim 3 in Sessions One &a...A great presentation on 2 Tim 3 in Sessions One & Two:<br /><br /><br /><br /><a rel="nofollow"> https://www.monergism.com/legacy/mt/mp3/patristic-roots-reformation-historical-basis-evangelical-belief-david-t-king </a>Algohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11166837376395639695noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-46912680348106228422016-06-18T10:10:57.680-04:002016-06-18T10:10:57.680-04:00Hi Ken,
Just want to drop a comment regarding the...Hi Ken,<br /><br />Just want to drop a comment regarding the liturgy argument that Nick gave. He really believes this is one of his ultimate argument. And it bothers him that his argument is not taken seriously. The reason I don't take it seriously is because of the following:<br /><br />1. It presupposes an understanding of the application of sola scriptura that is erroneous. For example, it demands that the perfect order, words and programs of the believer's assembly should be laid out in the Bible otherwise it is in violation of the sola scriptura principle. This is simply a wrong understanding of the tenet.<br /><br />2. There are many things in the Christian life, practice and decision making that is not detailed in Scripture but are controlled, principled and guided by Scripture. For example, we are commanded to take care of our bodies but the Scripture does not detail whether we are to do 10 sit-ups per day or have glutten free diet for breakfast. We are commanded to love but the Scripture does not detail that on Monday we are to give 10 dollars to homeless to show love. In other words, Scripture gives us principles and guidance on which we apply to each of our situations; the details of which vary in different ways.<br /><br />3. Thus, we are commanded in Scripture to gather together in worship. There are guidelines and principles in Scripture what we are to do in these gatherings. One major objective is for edification which Scripture gives us guidelines such as preaching, singing and exhorting. But it is not limited to those only because we see also as situation permit the celebration of the Lord's Supper or Baptism. Or, the prayer for the sick or rebuking or disciplining or ordaining leaders. There are many things that Scripture provides as priciples and practices that we can apply when we gather. There are liberties on what and when to do it. And so, our commitment to gather together to edify fellow believers and create programs to that end is a full commitment to Sola Scriptura rather than a violation of it.<br /><br />4. As a practical example: In China, most underground church gathering significantly differ in their practices when they worship together. Theirs is very basic. Sometimes, it is merely the reading of Scripture and prayer during the service. They have to make it quick and fast. At times, it is testimonial and thanksgiving. Are they violating Sola Scriptura or is their practice not in accordance with Scripture? Of course not. The principle is laid out in Scripture the application of which differ in every situation. We dare not say that their "liturgy" is deficient compared to the gathering we have for theirs might be more meaningful due to the persecution they experienced, although short and basic. It is not the form or length of words and ornaments used that the Scripture prescribed after all when we gather together in worship but the heart.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Joey HenryAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12121152868437323191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-18689697534761754512016-05-17T11:13:09.446-04:002016-05-17T11:13:09.446-04:00As for your admission that you only celebrated the...<i>As for your admission that you only celebrated the Lord's Supper once a month, this is astonishing because either it is part of liturgy or it isn't."</i><br /><br />Does not bother me one bit at all. Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-88756582703090451162016-05-17T11:10:34.966-04:002016-05-17T11:10:34.966-04:00There are a good group of folks who are part of th...There are a good group of folks who are part of the "house church movement" (based on the many verses at the end of the epistles that say, "the church that meets in their house", etc. ) that base a lot of what they do on the info in the NT and have meals together - the original Lord's Supper was at the end of a full meal, after worship in preaching, teaching, praying, singing praises, etc.<br /><br />The would use Acts 2, I Cor. 11 and 1 Cor. 14:26 (some are continualists in matters of spiritual gifts, etc.)<br /><br />But many of these folks burn out because using their own home in today's society, etc. is very difficult when the church grows. If the church never grows and it is kept small, that is another thing.<br /><br />In Iran, other Muslim countries, and other places like China, N. Korea, believers meet secretly in homes.<br /><br />But Scripture does not require house churches, and it does not require a certain liturgy. It just says that the believers met together regularly, and sometimes in early chapters "day by day", etc. and in the temple, until later; and on Sundays (Acts 20:7, I Cor. 16:1-2 - oh yeah, and taking up a collection / worship by giving to God's work is based on that; see also Revelation 1:10, which is not about meeting for worship on Sunday, but is about John being in the Spirit "on the Lord's day", which seems to also mean "Sunday".)<br /><br />When they met, it says they worshipped, etc. It doesn't specify the details of how to worship. But we know from the rest of Scripture the ways in which worship is carried out.<br /><br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-29134756298496559212016-05-17T10:46:09.560-04:002016-05-17T10:46:09.560-04:00Where does it say in Scripture that the Lord's...Where does it say in Scripture that the Lord's supper Is REQUIRED to be done EVERY SUNDAY?<br /><br />Liturgy is just an English word for the order /service of worship of singing, prayers, Scripture reading, teaching and preaching.<br /><br />It developed from the word for worship, which I showed you.<br /><br />Liturgy, in the meaning of the later development of it (the rituals and actions and words of a worship service) is not required in Scripture.<br /><br />So we are free to worship with prayers, Scripture reading, preaching, teaching, singing, and the Lord's Supper once a month if we want to. I do think once a quarter is not often enough, but every week is fine also, but I agree with once a month, and don't have any objections to either every week or once a month. Each church is free to choose which way they go on that, IMO. Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-56497189757146140362016-05-16T18:36:52.492-04:002016-05-16T18:36:52.492-04:00Ken,
You said: None of what you say really carri...Ken, <br /><br />You said: <b>None of what you say really carries any weight with me, since you are right in the sense that that an order of worship is not laid out word for word, but the general idea is for us to worship God by Scripture, prayer, singing, teaching, etc. and we can arrange the order however we want to and that is not a big deal to me.</b><br /><br />The main problem I have here is that you haven't actually given any Scriptural verses that say what the "general idea" is for Christian Liturgy. The closest thing you've listed is the Lord's Supper, which you say you only do once a month. I don't even think you've given a verse that says singing is supposed to be done during liturgy. <br /><br />As for your admission that you only celebrated the Lord's Supper once a month, this is astonishing because either it is part of liturgy or it isn't. If it is part of liturgy, you have no right to only do it 25% of the time. This suggests a person can celebrate the Lord's Supper as rarely as they feel like it, and by extension they can leave out Scripture, prayer, etc, as often as they feel like it. All this reduces down to a liturgical relativism, which really isn't liturgy at all, but more and more a man-made event according to personal taste.<br /><br /><br />Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-18535938445721010192016-05-16T00:25:57.132-04:002016-05-16T00:25:57.132-04:00λειτουργούντων δὲ αὐτῶν τῷ κυρίῳ
As they were min... λειτουργούντων δὲ αὐτῶν τῷ κυρίῳ<br /><br />As they were ministering / (worshiping ) to the Lord . . . <br />Acts 13:2<br /><br />The word Liturgy is just a man-made word anyway, based on the Greek word there in Acts 13:2, one of the places it is used.<br /><br />We are free to worship God with Scripture, reading, preaching, teaching, singing, praying. We don't celebrate the Lord's supper every Sunday either, but rather once a month, which I think is good.<br /><br />None of what you say really carries any weight with me, since you are right in the sense that that an order of worship is not laid out word for word, but the general idea is for us to worship God by Scripture, prayer, singing, teaching, etc. and we can arrange the order however we want to and that is not a big deal to me. Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-26200290488203119902016-05-15T22:53:52.113-04:002016-05-15T22:53:52.113-04:00Nick,
You said, "The idea that you "wor...Nick,<br /><br />You said, <i>"The idea that you "worship" however you please on Sunday has an exact parallel with the Golden Calf incident in the OT, where the Israelites basically invented their own liturgy."</i><br /><br />How does the golden calf incident speak to the liturgy at all? They were worshipping a golden statue, not the Lord...<br /><br />Quoting EJ on your own blog post, and being a Roman Catholic himself:<br /><br /><b>I also find it strange that you accuse Protestants of engaging in manmade worship and being idolaters, yet you base your opinion of them on a manmade syllogism and not on Church teaching.</b><br /><br />and EJ quoting your Catechism: <b>819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276</b><br /><br />and finally... <b>The harshness comes from you and not from the Church. I am not saying that Protestants have “bits and pieces” of the truth, as you have put it. It is the Church that has pointed out to us the elements of truth that our separated brothers and sisters have in common with us. You seem to think little of what the Church teaches.</b><br /><br />In Him,<br />JoeJoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18261351748058047837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-37723552737907056782016-05-14T23:04:36.722-04:002016-05-14T23:04:36.722-04:00Having the Psalms and the Bible and Creeds doesn&#...Having the Psalms and the Bible and Creeds doesn't tell you what the Liturgy is supposed to be. Simply quoting a verse here and a verse there from Scripture doesn't answer the question, it simply means you will take whatever verses of Scripture you want to be Liturgical and order them however you think is best. <br /><br />St Paul speaks of women wearing head coverings, and yet nobody I know has that as a requirement. So it's not enough to simply go through and pick out which verses you like. <br /><br />There are a lot of passages on teaching and preaching and such, but that doesn't mean they are liturgical, nor does it tell you how it is to be done within the Liturgy. Even the Sacraments aren't clearly part of the Liturgy within Protestantism, as many Protestants don't even do the Lord's Supper ever week. And in terms of Baptism, I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it was done in within the Liturgy. <br /><br />The format of Liturgy that you do on Sunday is pretty fixed and not many people would tolerate changing it. What you need to realize is that the format you're going by is not laid out in Scripture, it's made up by men. Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-37187456844549439172016-05-14T14:54:30.877-04:002016-05-14T14:54:30.877-04:00We don't "worship the Lord however we ple...We don't "worship the Lord however we please"<br /><br />rather<br /><br />we worship the Lord in Spirit and in Truth.<br /><br />according to the Truth of Scripture.<br /><br />Praising Him in His attributes and sound doctrinal propositions and content, etc. (singing, praying, preaching in according with sound doctrine.) Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-22477455451103940332016-05-14T14:50:05.750-04:002016-05-14T14:50:05.750-04:00We have the Psalms and the theology of the whole b...We have the Psalms and the theology of the whole bible, the Deity of Christ, the Trinity, and the first 4 ecumenical creeds flesh out the theology that is Biblical about God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. <br /><br />We have verses that say, "sing a new song to the Lord", etc. and "play on the string instruments with skill", etc.<br /><br />and <br />the chapters on the Lord's supper, "do this in remembrance of Me", etc.<br /><br />and<br />lots of Scripture about teaching and preaching.<br /><br />exhortations to reading Scripture and prayer.<br /><br />So:<br />preaching and teaching from Scripture<br />Scripture reading<br />Singing songs of worship and praise that are doctrinal in content<br />Prayers<br />The Lord's supper<br />Baptism when there is someone ready<br />etc.<br />these are the contents of a Biblical worship service.<br /><br />So, I honestly do not see your point, that seems to be that the liturgy HAS to be revealed by God about the specific order of saying words, and I guess, you are including Transubstantiation, a man-made doctrine and superstition that was developed more from the 800s - 1215 AD and then defended by Aquinas later.<br /><br /><br /><br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-49367911111372354162016-05-13T10:16:57.037-04:002016-05-13T10:16:57.037-04:00Ken,
For you to say "Your RCC liturgy is to...Ken, <br /><br />For you to say "Your RCC liturgy is totally man-made ALSO" is a dangerous claim. That's basically saying "since you Catholics believe in traditions of men, then we Protestants ALSO get to believe in traditions of men". <br /><br />The idea that you "worship" however you please on Sunday has an exact parallel with the Golden Calf incident in the OT, where the Israelites basically invented their own liturgy. <br /><br />Liturgy in some concrete form has to be revealed by God, otherwise it means God doesn't care how He is worshiped, which cannot be given that God is opposed to false worship.Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-69973476161984406232016-05-13T10:05:37.826-04:002016-05-13T10:05:37.826-04:00where do you get the idea that a detailed liturgy ...where do you get the idea that a detailed liturgy has to be written out or revealed by God?<br /><br />Your RCC liturgy is totally man-made also. Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-552543512049330412016-05-02T17:43:02.116-04:002016-05-02T17:43:02.116-04:00Ken, you said:
Seems clear to me that a Sunday wo...Ken, you said:<br /><br /><b>Seems clear to me that a Sunday worship service is:<br />Teaching/ preaching the word<br />Prayers<br />Singing songs of Praise and thanksgiving<br /><br />Colossians 3:16 - "singing and making melody in your hearts with Psalms, Hymns, and spiritual songs"<br /><br />The book of Psalms<br />The Lord's supper</b><br /><br />What "seems clear" doesn't seem to have any clear Biblical mandate. Your quote from Colossians 3:16 is not speaking of liturgy, but of day to day stuff, and it's only speaking of singing songs. <br /><br />You can't just go through the NT and lift a verse from here and there and invent a liturgy, nor can you be so generic as to say the liturgy is Scripture, Prayer, and Lord's Supper. The less details Scripture gives, the more it means you have to make it up, which means the more man-made your liturgy is.<br /><br />Nickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01453168437883536663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-78320340933419883812016-04-29T16:57:32.573-04:002016-04-29T16:57:32.573-04:00seems clear to me that a Sunday worship service is...seems clear to me that a Sunday worship service is:<br /><br />Teaching/ preaching the word<br />Prayers<br />Singing songs of Praise and thanksgiving<br /><br />Colossians 3:16 - "singing and making melody in your hearts with Psalms, Hymns, and spiritual songs"<br /><br />The book of Psalms <br /><br />The Lord's supper<br />Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-69860464484632736202016-04-29T15:47:01.007-04:002016-04-29T15:47:01.007-04:00none of those passages entail revelation has ended...<i>none of those passages entail revelation has ended or the canon is closed.</i><br /><br />Taken together as a whole, they imply this.<br /><br />Jude 3 - "the once for all delivered to the saints faith' - implies that very thing.<br /><br />Since the promises of leading the disciples into all the truth are for them - in John 14, 16, and not for us (we have to resort to their writings to find the truth/word/gospel; as Irenaeus also told us, "since the tradition does exist, let us resort to the Scriptures" AH 3:5:1 see below) ; the implication is that all the truth was deposited with the disciples/apostles (and Paul being a special addition and seems to be the Lord's replacement for Judas)<br /><br />Irenaeus Against Heresies, 3:5:1<br />1. Since, therefore, the tradition from the apostles does thus exist in the Church, and is permanent among us, <b>let us revert to the Scriptural proof furnished by those apostles who did also write the Gospel, in which they recorded the doctrine regarding God,</b> pointing out that our Lord Jesus Christ is the truth, and that no lie is in Him.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-14408747030095619242016-04-29T11:10:30.232-04:002016-04-29T11:10:30.232-04:00Ken,
Yes, if the canon exists, it exists regardle...Ken,<br /><br />Yes, if the canon exists, it exists regardless of our apprehension of it - that's not the point I'm making nor am I confusing ontology with epistemology - the identification/recognition of that canon by the church is the point though. Given you affirm the identified/recognized canon as a Protestant doctrine, and given SS as your rule of faith in which all doctrine is derived/judged by Scripture alone, I'm asking to demonstrate your consistency with SS in affirming your canon and how you distinguish that doctrine from a man-made tradition.<br /><br />"resort to the written letter = Sola Scriptura in principle "<br /><br />SS was not "in principle" during NT times. It couldn't have been, by definition - that's White's point. You're redefining SS to mean "Scriptural authority" but it means much more than that - RCism holds to Scriptural authority while rejecting SS. You already apparently agree unwritten tradition was operative during biblical times. So, by your argument, I can just say "Unwritten tradition in principle".Cletus Van Dammehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13749634619890462132noreply@blogger.com