tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post5877506224922669617..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: The special pleading of Sola Ecclesia-ists' claims to unityJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger105125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-63527287858212841112010-01-20T14:37:56.845-05:002010-01-20T14:37:56.845-05:00John: Otherwise whoever accepts the least stuff w...John: <i>Otherwise whoever accepts the least stuff wins, which would be the atheist.</i><br /><br />Now John: <i>there are no canonical books, traditions or teachings that one must accept to be an atheist, other than the single one which is definition of that moniker.</i><br /><br />You are apparently incapable of following an argument with any consistency. You could certainly stand to read my blogposts on atheism over at my blog.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-80801453701695331072010-01-19T17:43:42.285-05:002010-01-19T17:43:42.285-05:00Last I checked there are no canonical books, tradi...Last I checked there are no canonical books, traditions or teachings that one must accept to be an atheist, other than the single one which is definition of that moniker.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-30447252624652123852010-01-19T17:02:52.943-05:002010-01-19T17:02:52.943-05:00You think atheists accept the least stuff on faith...You think atheists accept the least stuff on faith? You have a lot to learn about atheism.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-78824696286285027222010-01-19T17:01:17.230-05:002010-01-19T17:01:17.230-05:00Rhology: just because we've got more stuff tha...Rhology: just because we've got more stuff than you, doesn't let you off the hook of being consistent in the proof you demand to prove your own stuff. Otherwise whoever accepts the least stuff wins, which would be the atheist. So the challenge remains - prove it or admit your blind allegiance to your own traditions.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-54897147204452585082010-01-19T09:33:16.449-05:002010-01-19T09:33:16.449-05:00Not at all, John.
We both agree that Hebrews is in...Not at all, John.<br />We both agree that Hebrews is inspired by God. We DON'T agree that "apostolic tradition" indeed comes from an apostle. The challenge remains - prove it or admit your blind allegiance to EOC.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-25262887243885443872010-01-19T09:27:17.625-05:002010-01-19T09:27:17.625-05:00Errr, isn't that the point Rhology? I'm re...Errr, isn't that the point Rhology? I'm responding to someone who claims an argument cuts against EO, when it cuts against sola scriptura too.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-56404134428102011262010-01-19T09:07:19.180-05:002010-01-19T09:07:19.180-05:00What John conveniently neglects to mention is that...What John conveniently neglects to mention is that his challenge cuts against the EO position as well.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-31930528529336369862010-01-18T20:15:05.071-05:002010-01-18T20:15:05.071-05:00"the New Testament provides the substance whi..."the New Testament provides the substance while tradition provides arguments from silence."<br /><br />What substance and what silence?<br /><br />If tradition didn't have substance, there would be nothing for you to disagree with.<br /><br />That the tradition is not verbal, doesn't make it silence, it makes it non verbal.<br /><br />If non-verbal is silence, then the lack of verbal statement about Hebrew's authorship or authority means it should be discarded. All you have as a basis for accepting Hebrews is the non-verbal tradition that it is authoritative and in some undefined way apostolic. Do you accept this tradition? If so, why?Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-53729701332239232142010-01-18T11:13:09.218-05:002010-01-18T11:13:09.218-05:00We don't have "tomes" of extra-bibli...We don't have "tomes" of extra-biblical *quotations* of the Apostles; but we do know the way they understood their own words, the way they served the Liturgy, and more or less detailed accounts of what happened to them after Pentecost.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-44123235965177736032010-01-18T10:42:39.705-05:002010-01-18T10:42:39.705-05:00Oh yes, I recall that now and also recall that he ...Oh yes, I recall that now and also recall that he is quoted as essentially preaching sermons that consisted of "Little children, love one another."<br /><br />Yet, of course, nothing at all anywhere near the extent to which we can claim that various detailed traditions come from the apostles.<br /><br />aDios,<br />Mariano<br /><br />PS: John, I do not care to get side tracked; in Hebrews we have the words but not the name which in tradition was have names but no words thus, the New Testament provides the substance while tradition provides arguments from silence.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-47172061875449364782010-01-17T17:35:05.067-05:002010-01-17T17:35:05.067-05:00"Please provide 1) the name of the apostle wh..."Please provide 1) the name of the apostle who stated it"<br /><br />For the book of Hebrews, please prove to everybody's satisfaction what apostle wrote it.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02977287092917957220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-16723866351197638082010-01-17T12:41:13.008-05:002010-01-17T12:41:13.008-05:00Sorry, that was Polycarp actually. The line belong...Sorry, that was Polycarp actually. The line belonging to the Apostle [John] is “Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within.” :-)The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-7062602866384085522010-01-17T09:24:16.994-05:002010-01-17T09:24:16.994-05:00Ok, thank you, now we are getting somewhere.
Plea...Ok, thank you, now we are getting somewhere.<br /><br />Please provide 1) the name of the apostle who stated it, 2) the quote from the apostle and 3) the citation to where it is found for the following:<br /><br />Apostle's words in the Liturgy.<br />Apostle's words in the Tradition.<br />Apostle stating, "first born of satan"<br /><br />aDios,<br />MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-73082229426654026592010-01-17T07:40:48.946-05:002010-01-17T07:40:48.946-05:00The way of serving the Liturgy is one "word&q...The way of serving the Liturgy is one "word" that's not recorded anywhere in the NT. The lives of the Apostles after Pentecost are not recorded in Scripture, but known from tradition. The phrase `first born of satan` is a also a word belonging to an Apostle not recorded in the NT. Etc.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-67954801702217657452010-01-16T15:31:16.906-05:002010-01-16T15:31:16.906-05:00The issue is whether there is even one single word...The issue is whether there is even one single word spoken by the apostles that is quoted in tradition, liturgy or anything else at all outside of the New Testament and the answer, clearly, is "No."<br /><br />aDios,<br />MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-22344450263101421732010-01-16T12:22:31.873-05:002010-01-16T12:22:31.873-05:00The Bible, in both Testaments, has divine services...The Bible, in both Testaments, has divine services. And we're told to do them. We're even told on which days. But there's no actual description of NT worship anywhere in the NT. <br /><br />The Bible tells us to do the Liturgy, but it doesn't tell us how. The Liturgy does not consist in reading the entire Scripture. Nor in waging wars (like those we read of in the Bible). Nor in wandering around naked in the park like Adam and Eve. Nor in reciting the psalter from beginning to end. Nor in doing miracles and receiving visions and uttering prophecies (which the Bible also mentions). Nor in merely re-enacting in a few minutes the events of the Last Supper. Nor in washing anyone's feet. <br /><br />I'm not saying that it's not put together from elements which are ultimately found in Scripture: but which ones and in which order? <br /><br />And P.S.: I'm not Catholic.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-80243368513351970332010-01-16T11:46:07.530-05:002010-01-16T11:46:07.530-05:00I just thought You were/are a Lutheran (and that s...I just thought You were/are a Lutheran (and that subsequently the Liturgy might mean something to you). Sorry.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-63456524420709557732010-01-15T22:57:50.389-05:002010-01-15T22:57:50.389-05:00So there is no liturgy that contains statements sp...So there is no liturgy that contains statements spoken by the apostles which are not found in the Bible--agreed.<br /><br />Now, by the form and content of Christian worship you must mean having the priest perform the mass with his back to the parishioners for centuries until this supposed apostolic tradition is ignored and he turns around--with no biblical backing nor apostolic backing.<br /><br />Or, the parishioners not partaking of the wine/blood until this supposed apostolic tradition is ignored and centuries later when they do so--again, no biblical backing nor apostolic backing.<br /><br />Or changing confession from exomologesis to auricular or a thousand other things that have been changed from, if you are correct, the teachings of the apostles themselves (of which we have not one single word quoted anywhere) outside the New Testament?<br /><br />aDios,<br />MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-29792637801013731082010-01-15T19:29:12.131-05:002010-01-15T19:29:12.131-05:00The form and content of Christian worship, which t...The form and content of Christian worship, which to my knowledge is described in detail nowhere in the New Testament.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-84600518096628280742009-12-28T21:39:01.496-05:002009-12-28T21:39:01.496-05:00Lvka,
The liturgy contains statements spoken by th...Lvka,<br />The liturgy contains statements spoken by the apostles which are not found in the Bible?<br /><br />I would be interested in having you provide these quotations and citations.<br /><br />aDios,<br />MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-37070225053241509682009-12-27T15:12:00.114-05:002009-12-27T15:12:00.114-05:00Rho here seems to
Then your reading comprehension...<i>Rho here seems to</i><br /><br />Then your reading comprehension is faulty. I haven't even made a statement FOR my position here at all. I've just been laying the smack down on a garbage Sola Ecclesia argument. An internal critique of your position.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-17837716558879215182009-12-20T17:59:49.132-05:002009-12-20T17:59:49.132-05:00L.P.,
1) you don't, but Rho here seems to
2)...L.P., <br /><br />1) you don't, but Rho here seems to<br />2) spoken like a true islander :-)<br /><br /><br />-------------------------<br /><br />Mario, <br /><br />the Liturgy, for instance.The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-47928803167380945042009-12-19T10:21:07.366-05:002009-12-19T10:21:07.366-05:00The issue of oral apostolic tradition is actually ...The issue of oral apostolic tradition is actually stunningly simply, and here I am addressing Roman Catholicism:<br /><br />Ask a Catholic to quote to you one statement, one sentence or one word, , even one single one, spoken by the apostles which is not found in the Bible but only in their oral traditions.<br /><br />There is nothing there, no substance, but only a vague claim to oral tradition—but what is the tradition itself? What did they say and not write down? One single statement, anything at all?<br /><br />aDios,<br />MarianoKenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-33331618094167450282009-12-19T06:36:20.580-05:002009-12-19T06:36:20.580-05:00Lvka.
I am not shy at all about the diversity of ...Lvka.<br /><br />I am not shy at all about the diversity of protestants. I think it is really a strength. As protagonists to RC and EO, they have a dilemma, who are they going to pick first to take off?<br /><br />Protestantism is like an archipelago, it is hard to colonize.<br /><br />LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-70123714607920823542009-12-18T23:50:23.224-05:002009-12-18T23:50:23.224-05:00Catholics have the same belief (i.e., Catholicism ...Catholics have the same belief (i.e., Catholicism is not just unified institutionally, but also as a faith-system). The same goes for Orthodoxy and Monophysites. -- and as You can see, they're only three Chuches, not 30,000. <br /><br />Furthermore, how exactly are Protestants united in spirit, without being united in faith?? (I mean, it's not like Reformed Calvinists and Oneness Pentecostals are all actually good ol'-fashioned die-hard Lutherans bickering over minute details...)The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.com