tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post5541259404068178378..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: How the fictional early papacy became realJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger52125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-75346531762905118672010-06-09T21:44:22.178-04:002010-06-09T21:44:22.178-04:00Reposting to fix typos:
So, should you be worried...Reposting to fix typos:<br /><br /><i>So, should you be worried about the canon the other "church" has "adopted"? If yes, what would be the basis for your worry?</i><br /><br />What do you mean? What other church has adopted what other canon? You mean the RCC canon?<br /><br /><i>Ok, what are going to do with the other Protestant whose idea about church is different from your very strongly held opinion?</i><br /><br />What other Protestant church holds to a different understanding than what I've laid out here?<br /><br /><i>Somehow, "invisibility" is not sufficent for you because you still want to know what the canon is and your invisible church can't get it done for you.</i><br /><br />I know what the canon is. I trust God in Christ that we have His Word as intended, otherwise I can make nothing of your statement.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-35566072887958569402010-06-09T21:12:15.484-04:002010-06-09T21:12:15.484-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-31272456251691765762010-06-09T17:17:58.802-04:002010-06-09T17:17:58.802-04:00"I mean that the local congregations, whereve..."I mean that the local congregations, wherever they existed, accepted certain books by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and rejected others."<br /><br />and<br /><br />"Where ever two or three are gathered in Jesus' name."<br /><br />So, should you be worried about the canon the other "church" has "adopted"? If yes, what would be the basis for your worry?<br /><br />"Regarding the visible Church, I do not believe that God intended to establish one gigantic, overarching religio/political institution through which His people would be governed by a hierarchy of a privileged relative few by apostolic succession."<br /><br />Ok, what are going to do with the other Protestant whose idea about church is different from your very strongly held opinion?<br /><br />"The Church is invisible in the sense that we do not know who the elect are.."<br /><br />Somehow, "invisibility" is not sufficent for you because you still want to know what the canon is and your invisible church can't get it done for you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-29562942884718641232010-06-08T23:55:47.767-04:002010-06-08T23:55:47.767-04:00Dozie,
I mean that the local congregations, where...Dozie,<br /><br />I mean that the local congregations, wherever they existed, accepted certain books by the guidance of the Holy Spirit and rejected others. I believe it was God's intention to bring His Word to His people in this way.<br /><br />Regarding the <i>visible</i> Church, I do not believe that God intended to establish one gigantic, overarching religio/political institution through which His people would be governed by a hierarchy of a privileged relative few by apostolic succession. His Church is visible in that we see it in the myriads of local congregations scattered throughout the world. Those who are truest to His written Word are among His true Church, His true disciples.<br /><br />The Church is <i>invisible</i> in the sense that we do not know who the elect are; that is, we can make human judgements about who are true believers but we can't know for certain--that is in God's hands.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-42423071273784202242010-06-08T22:13:13.581-04:002010-06-08T22:13:13.581-04:00Dozie,
"The problem with the question is the...Dozie,<br /><br />"The problem with the question is the one you bring to it. The Church does not teach she is superior to the Scriptures."<br /><br />Well, according to the arguments advanced by RC apologists, she is superior, because they need an infallible interpreter, and no one knew what the Scriptures were until the canon was "officially" put forth. This argument is quite common, and I submit it means the Church is over the Scriptures. The superiority is embedded within the claim made by the RCC--look to the RCC (or EOC)and not the Scriptures, because we only know the Scriptures from the RCC. That certainly sounds like an embedded claim to superiority.<br /><br /><br />"Ok, “the Church not understood as only the RC or EO”, but as what? Do you mind clarifying?"<br /><br />Where ever two or three are gathered in Jesus' name.Edward Reisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07099195433395115204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-22265253999684192512010-06-08T20:48:42.844-04:002010-06-08T20:48:42.844-04:00“The problem with the question is in the unspoken ...“The problem with the question is in the unspoken premise: that recognition gives the one recognizing the thing superior to the thing.”<br /><br />The problem with the question is the one you bring to it. The Church does not teach she is superior to the Scriptures.<br /> <br />“For this reason it doesn't cause any protestant any consternation to state that the Church (not understood as only the RC or EO sects respectively) recognized and received the canon.”<br /><br />Ok, “the Church not understood as only the RC or EO”, but as what? Do you mind clarifying?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-89312199583495560912010-06-08T19:37:06.856-04:002010-06-08T19:37:06.856-04:00Dozie,
The problem with the question is in the un...Dozie,<br /><br />The problem with the question is in the unspoken premise: that recognition gives the one recognizing the thing superior to the thing. For this reason it doesn't cause any protestant any consternation to state that the Church (not understood as only the RC or EO sects respectively)recognized and received the canon. it is as if the Church asserted superiority over Christ because she recognizes Christ.Edward Reisshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07099195433395115204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-28460839692774714532010-06-08T19:12:12.205-04:002010-06-08T19:12:12.205-04:00"Scriptures as having been attested to by Chr..."Scriptures as having been attested to by Christ's [Universal] Church and received as such"<br /><br />I frankly do not know what "attested" is supposed to mean or the form it took. <br /><br />By "Universal" are you implying visible or invisible Church?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-7555326681359595892010-06-08T18:34:12.299-04:002010-06-08T18:34:12.299-04:00Dozie,
Your premise is flawed. None of the questi...Dozie,<br /><br />Your premise is flawed. None of the questions I asked is in any way a Protestant assertion. They are exclusively Roman Catholic or EO assertions.<br /><br />Protestants do not believe:<br /><br />1) That there exists an original official list of authoritative canonical books which were assembled by an authoritative council and were pronounced "the Scriptures." (We see the Scriptures as having been attested to by Christ's [Universal] Church and received as such; that is, they were Scriptures all along, not that the Church conferred authority upon certain books which then <i>became</i> Scripture).<br /><br />2) That binding apostolic oral traditions exist apart from and outside of the written Word of God, the Holy Scriptures.<br /><br />3) That there exists an original official list of authoritative dogmatic doctrinal pronouncements which are accessible to any Christian believer.<br /><br />I have never seen any RCC or EO produce such lists, despite repeated requests for same. Ironically, in order to produce a list of apostolic oral traditions, they would have to have been written down, defeating their purpose.<br /><br />Your questions are not a rational response to my questions.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39192532010777489772010-06-08T18:19:13.474-04:002010-06-08T18:19:13.474-04:00Dozie,
There is a guest post over at TurretinFan&...Dozie,<br /><br />There is a guest post over at TurretinFan's blog which substantively answers some/many of your questions:<br /><br /><a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/2010/06/jews-knew-old-testament-canon-guest.html" rel="nofollow">The Jews Knew the OT Canon</a>.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-47679261848240382222010-06-08T18:06:36.105-04:002010-06-08T18:06:36.105-04:00"The original official list of authoritative ..."The original official list of authoritative canonical books"<br /><br />Is there an actual Protestant canon of scriptures? If so, how did it come about? Who decided on the Protestant canon? In what setting was it decided - Council, Study Groups, etc? Are there records of the research/deliberations leading to such canonizations? Are Protestants still considering new materials? Please explain why or why not. Answers to these question would be very helpful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-66889803735355412572010-06-08T12:42:19.469-04:002010-06-08T12:42:19.469-04:00I would like to see unearthed the following three ...I would like to see unearthed the following three things:<br /><br />1) The original official list of authoritative canonical books<br /><br />2) The original official list of apostolic oral traditions<br /><br />3) The original official list of authoritative dogmatic doctrinal pronouncementsPilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-71165617437387653072010-06-08T10:56:14.226-04:002010-06-08T10:56:14.226-04:00Hmm, I like Blomberg's answer too!
Maybe Paul&...Hmm, I like Blomberg's answer too!<br />Maybe Paul's letter to the Laodicaeans? Or his lost letter to the Corinthians?<br />Or maybe the original autograph of a biblical book or two.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-88330721133314184932010-06-08T10:35:55.747-04:002010-06-08T10:35:55.747-04:00Hey Rho, Matthew want to give a go at my question?...Hey Rho, Matthew want to give a go at my question?<br /><br /><br />John Tim Tim anyone .. Just out of curiousity , if i were to give you a magic wand that had the power to unearth artifacts or lost tomes or anything archaeological from any period of history what would you like to get back? You are allowed to unearth on thing. Ive asked many people this question and i always enjoy the answers. I was remined of it by John mentioning the possibility of finding hegisippus' works in the Vatican.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85431107713210423702010-06-08T10:20:59.026-04:002010-06-08T10:20:59.026-04:00when are you going to quite using the logical fall...<i> when are you going to quite using the logical fallacy of appealing to authority?</i><br /><br />The irony of this issuing forth from the mouth of a papist is apparently lost on Bellisario, like so many other things.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-90761099045549458062010-06-08T09:53:14.124-04:002010-06-08T09:53:14.124-04:00John
Paul's pwn collection of his letters.. ...John <br /><br />Paul's pwn collection of his letters.. Deadly. <br /><br />RichardAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-12613502608341354252010-06-08T08:23:09.392-04:002010-06-08T08:23:09.392-04:00Matthew Bellisario -- Thanks for another edifying ...Matthew Bellisario -- Thanks for another edifying <i>ad hominem</i> rant, again proving that you don't have the goods to actually interact with the material.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-54737205230410799872010-06-08T08:18:18.747-04:002010-06-08T08:18:18.747-04:00John, when are you going to quite using the logica...John, when are you going to quite using the logical fallacy of appealing to authority? It is not a convincing argument to go around cherry picking historian's quotes that fit into your neat fantasy of what you consider to be historical truth. Historical criticism is a weak platform to build your anti-papal tirade off of. <br /><br />Isn't it funny that when historical criticism can be used to to attack the papacy, then it is good history, but when we look at the "Reformers" doctrines of men founded on the misinterpretation of the Bible through the same historical lens, we see that it is not consistent to the historical critics either. Thats Ok though, because John will ignore the same historians who are also saying that Protestantism is not consistent with the Christianity of the early Church either. So where does that leave poor John? Inventing his own church which only exists in the figment of his imagination. What a joke.James Bellisariohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01786370386909499672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-47188483010681121072010-06-08T07:59:38.157-04:002010-06-08T07:59:38.157-04:00Well, that beats mine.
It has also been posited t...Well, that beats mine.<br /><br />It has also been posited that some of the "oral traditions" from NT times had been written down in some form -- "Q" and things like that. I'd also be interested in knowing what Paul wanted in 2 Tim 4:13: "When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments." There is some recent scholarship to suggest that Paul began collecting his own letters during his lifetime.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-71872859319706488052010-06-08T06:49:00.178-04:002010-06-08T06:49:00.178-04:00John. Sounds good to me. Best answer ive got was f...John. Sounds good to me. Best answer ive got was from Craig Blomberg, he said that most students of rabbi's took notes on papryii so he'd like to get hold of the notes the apostles took from the sermon on the mount!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-7911377048720326602010-06-08T06:29:32.178-04:002010-06-08T06:29:32.178-04:00Hi Space Bishop. I'd have to rate the works th...Hi Space Bishop. I'd have to rate the works that I cited, Hegesippus and Papias, as being right up there. Of course, there could be works that we don't even know about, so I'd have to reserve commentary on any of those.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-72158767584247089102010-06-08T06:22:46.652-04:002010-06-08T06:22:46.652-04:00John Tim Tim anyone .. Just out of curiousity , if...John Tim Tim anyone .. Just out of curiousity , if i were to give you a magic wand that had the power to unearth artifacts or lost tomes or anything archaeological from any period of history what would you like to get back? You are allowed to unearth on thing. Ive asked many people this question and i always enjoy the answers. I was remined of it by John mentioning the possibility of finding hegisippus' works in the Vatican.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1456588800085697132010-06-08T02:35:40.652-04:002010-06-08T02:35:40.652-04:00Tim (Pilgrim) - He's persuaded me to look up A...Tim (Pilgrim) - He's persuaded me to look up Alcuin now. I found his Medieval History through iTunes. I'm trying to track down a course syllabus or something -- I'm actually hoping to be able to find some of his other courses there, too. <br /><br />Tell him he's got fans out here in flyover country :-)John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-75553880635346630812010-06-08T01:04:33.798-04:002010-06-08T01:04:33.798-04:00BTW, you can find direct links to specific sermons...BTW, you can find direct links to specific sermons in the Judges series in the posts on my website as well.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-71991804758833779112010-06-08T00:54:00.591-04:002010-06-08T00:54:00.591-04:00I wish there were an army of Carl Truemans teachin...<i>I wish there were an army of Carl Truemans teaching in seminaries.</i><br /><br />Amen! I couldn't agree with you more. We credit Carl to a large degree for helping to keep Westminster on track during the Pete Enns controversy.<br /><br />Carl and his family have been members of our church for several years. We on the Pastoral Search Committee, in addition to calling a new Pastor, have also called Carl to serve as teaching elder.<br /><br />You can catch any of his sermon series on the Book of Judges in the sermon archives <a href="http://www.cornerstoneopc.com/page.php?id=9" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />Blessings,<br /><br />TimPilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.com