tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post3705579135886051391..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Luther, 2 Maccabees & Purgatory....RevisitedJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-36058834453302408912008-10-03T16:34:00.000-04:002008-10-03T16:34:00.000-04:00bkaycee,Thanks for sharing. 27 years ago I was pr...bkaycee,<BR/>Thanks for sharing. 27 years ago I was preparing for marriage too - to a Catholic, and I was not Catholic. For 7 years I remained non-Catholic, but then - when I actually opened my heart and mind to the possibility - the Truth was let in. I have been a Catholic for a little over 20 years now, and have never regretted the move - which was not based in an emotional high, but in deeply thought out and heavily debated with my father-in-law (not so much with my wife, as she was visiting several churches with me from my Lutheran church to a few non-denominational fellowships I also frequented).<BR/> <BR/>One thing I cannot understand is how one who was a Catholic could ever leave the Real Presence of the Eucharist behind? Unless, of course, that person never really accepted the Real Presence theology. <BR/> <BR/>If this conversation is not appropriate here, feel free to address me in one of the forums I mentioned before. I also host a couple others which are not nearly as busy as CDF, I would encourage you to contact me in the <A HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/acts" REL="nofollow">ACTS forum</A>. If it is OK here, I'll try to check back more frequently. <BR/> <BR/>AMDG,<BR/>Scott<<<Scott Windsorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961374547503296840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-90110389733923375412008-10-03T10:38:00.000-04:002008-10-03T10:38:00.000-04:00"bkaycee,Clearly we have a difference of opinion a..."bkaycee,<BR/>Clearly we have a difference of opinion and interpretation. 22 years ago, I would share your interpretation with you, but I do know differently now."<BR/><BR/>Scott, i would love to debate, but have very limited time, with Church, family, and work but let me mention that 24 years ago, I was in your shoes. I was a Catholic preparing for marriage. My priest let me borrow his catechism and while i tried to read it, found it empty and void of life, not filling my need to know God more as I tried to "get more religious" for marriage. At the same time a part time pastor at work shared the Gospel of Grace on the Romans road of salvation with me. Praise and thanks be to God, that God graciously opened my eyes to understand His Word and gave me the Faith to believe in Him(Christ) and trust Him alone as the substitionary atonement for my sin, the author and finisher of my salvation, making me a new Creation in Christ.<BR/>God truly seated me in heavenly places with Christ, as I literally could not sleep for 3 days, feeling the presence and closeness of Christ, my Savior. For the next 6 months I was walking on air, joyous, hungry for God's Word, telling others about the free gift of salvation in Christ, truly loving God and His Son because He first loved me! God converted me to Himself, not to a church. I will forever boast in Christ and in Him alone! Christ is my all in all, and all "the fullness of the Faith" there is. The Savior and Shepherd of the sheep found me and I rest with true peace in Him.bkayceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15735441833526239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-67548787748964898092008-10-02T23:51:00.000-04:002008-10-02T23:51:00.000-04:00bkaycee,Clearly we have a difference of opinion an...bkaycee,<BR/>Clearly we have a difference of opinion and interpretation. 22 years ago, I would share your interpretation with you, but I do know differently now. <BR/> <BR/>The fact of the matter is, the Catholic Church does not define exactly what or how the purging process of Purgatory is or will be. We just know, from Scripture, that there will be this cleansing since nothing impure can enter Heaven. <BR/> <BR/>It is not my intention to come here and attack you and your beliefs. I initially came to this blog because I stumbled across something Mr. Swan wrote about me a year and a half ago, and I was not aware it was even here until I happened upon his response in a Google search. I have responded to him, and he says he will get to my responses when he has the time. I invite his interaction with what I've said.<BR/> <BR/>Now, that being said, if you wish to continue this with me - then I would invite you to challenge me and/or the several other Catholic apologists on <A HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CatholicDebateForum" REL="nofollow"> The Catholic Debate Forum on Yahoogroups (CDF)</A>. And of course, you can respond in the comments section of <A HREF="http://cathapol.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">CathApol, my blog</A>.<BR/> <BR/>As I told James, I am not an anti-Lutheran apologist and do not plan to frequent this blog much. I will check in from time to time, but am quite busy on <A HREF="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CatholicDebateForum" REL="nofollow">CDF</A>, and other forums I participate in.<BR/> <BR/>May God bring us both to the fullness of His Truth,<BR/>Scott<<<Scott Windsorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961374547503296840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-81864599008718389272008-10-02T00:26:00.000-04:002008-10-02T00:26:00.000-04:00Certainly the text plainly says, "suffer loss...Certainly the text plainly says, "suffer loss" which is quite different from whatever suffering purgatory is purported to be.<BR/><BR/>Does one "suffer loss" in purgatory or does one suffer from the purging? <BR/><BR/>additional notes from Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary<BR/><BR/>the day-of the Lord (1Co 1:8; Heb 10:25; 1Th 5:4). The article is emphatic, "The day," that is, the great day of days, the long expected day.<BR/><BR/>declare it-old English for "make it clear" (1Co 4:4).<BR/><BR/>it shall be revealed by fire-it, that is, "every man's work." Rather, "He," the Lord, whose day it is (2Th 1:7, 8). Translate literally, "is being revealed (the present in the Greek implies the certainty and nearness of the event, Re 22:10, 20) in fire" (Mal 3:3; 4:1). The fire (probably figurative here, as the gold, hay, &c.) is not purgatory (as Rome teaches, that is, purificatory and punitive), but probatory, <B>not restricted to those dying in "venial sin";</B> the supposed intermediate class between those entering heaven at once, and those dying in mortal sin who go to hell, but <B>universal, testing the godly and ungodly alike</B> (2Co 5:10; compare Mr 9:49). <B>This fire is not till the last day, the supposed fire of purgatory begins at death.</B> The fire of Paul is to try the works, the fire of purgatory the persons, of men. <B>Paul's fire causes "loss" to the sufferers; Rome's purgatory, great gain, namely, heaven at last to those purged by it, if only it were true. Thus this passage, quoted by Rome for, is altogether against, purgatory.</B> "It was not this doctrine that gave rise to prayers for the dead; but the practice of praying for the dead [which crept in from the affectionate but mistaken solicitude of survivors] gave rise to the doctrine" [Whately].bkayceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15735441833526239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-63338007912071627462008-10-01T23:13:00.000-04:002008-10-01T23:13:00.000-04:00(We have just seen it is clearly found in Scriptur...<I>(We have just seen it is clearly found in Scripture)</I><BR/><BR/>No, what we've seen clearly is that there is a reference to "the day" that will bring the quality of our work to light.<BR/><BR/>That's not a clear reference to Purgatory at all (and if it is, then why has Rome made an infallible declaration to that effect?)<BR/><BR/>Indeed, it makes much more sense that it's a reference to the Day of the Lord, for fire is a frequent image associated with the return of the Lord.GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-63556773500107321522008-10-01T18:55:00.000-04:002008-10-01T18:55:00.000-04:00More from where I posted under the wrong blog - bu...More from where I posted under the wrong blog - but I will continue my responses here now...<BR/><BR/>> James Swan said...<BR/>> Interesting also Scott how <BR/>> "works" are judged in 1 cor 3, <BR/>> not sins and their punishment.<BR/>> I thought Rome teaches Purgatory<BR/>> is a place to be purifed from <BR/>> the temporal punishments of sin.<BR/> <BR/>Notice how you've parsed the terminology here. Your first comment is "works... not sins" and then your next comment is "temporal punishments of sin." Those are two quite starkly different concepts. The temporal punishments OF sin are not the sins themselves - those have already been forgiven.<BR/><BR/>> Nor does the text say that a <BR/>> person is punished, or a person <BR/>> is going through the fire, but <BR/>> rather their works.<BR/> <BR/>Well, I can see how you come to that novel interpretation, but the fact is verse 15 says:<BR/><B>If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.</B><BR/>Note, the subject at the end of this sentence is "himself" and he will be saved, "as through fire." So where it may not be a literal "fire" - it will be "as fire" and he will pass through it.<BR/><BR/>> I think Luther was right when <BR/>> he said Rome takes 1 cor. 3 to <BR/>> teach Purgatory, simply because <BR/>> "fire" is mentioned.<BR/> <BR/>Well, it's not simply because fire is mentioned. It's a judgment or testing "AS BY fire" - and the individuals passing through this will either receive a reward OR suffer loss. So there's a LOT more than simply mentioning fire.<BR/> <BR/>Scott<<<Scott Windsorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961374547503296840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-36614343286691310182008-10-01T16:40:00.000-04:002008-10-01T16:40:00.000-04:00Hmmm, not sure how it happened, but yes, it was un...Hmmm, not sure how it happened, but yes, it was under the wrong blog entry... I have taken the liberty of copying your (James') response into this comment - and I will respond to it here. Like I said, I was tired when I did that first response, but I have no clue how it could get attached to the wrong blog entry. <BR/><BR/>> James Swan said...<BR/>><BR/>> This is a misrepresentation of <BR/>> the passage.<BR/>><BR/>> Scott, my apologies. Luther did <BR/>> not assign verse 13, he only <BR/>> states 1 Cor. 3, citing the <BR/>> chapter generally. <BR/><BR/>Agreed, but that would only further my point - the context shows more here than Luther lets on to.<BR/><BR/>> The text is from the Old <BR/>> Philalephia edition of <BR/>> Luther's Works vol. 3. I took <BR/>> the text from an on-line <BR/>> version, without checking it<BR/>> against the original, which I <BR/>> just did.<BR/> <BR/>Thank you! That is appreciated. Is there an online reference to the original that we can all look at?<BR/><BR/>> In the text, Luther is working <BR/>> though a brief response to 49 <BR/>> articles written against him. <BR/>> I've noticed the later responses <BR/>> are much more sparse (he seemed <BR/>> to be running out of gas, so to <BR/>> speak).<BR/>><BR/>> I don't think its fair to say <BR/>> Luther "overlooked the context", <BR/>> when he was only speaking <BR/>> generally of 1 Cor. 3,<BR/> <BR/>Well, as I said, the context reveals more than Luther lets on to. I agree his reference is not specific, but the quote was pretty direct.<BR/><BR/>> and I think you would agree <BR/>> Roman Catholics do refer to it <BR/>> as a Purgatory prooftext. That <BR/>> really is Luther's point.<BR/> <BR/>It really is a prooftext, even if Luther, et al, refuses to see it as such. It speaks of the judgment, wherein our works are tested - this is after this life when this happens. It goes on to say that if works remain, there will be rewards - but if the works are burned up, the person will "suffer loss, yet he will be saved." So we have a "saved person" who will undergo judgment/testing and IF his works are "burned up" this "saved person" will "suffer loss."<BR/> <BR/>As for bkaycee's comment:<BR/>> Not sure how "suffer loss" of <BR/>> reward is a "clear reference" to <BR/>> purgatory.<BR/> <BR/>Well, it's NOT merely a loss of reward - THAT is a twisting of the Scripture! One does not "suffer" the "loss" of something they NEVER HAD! It is AFTER this SAME JUDGMENT/TEST OF FIRE that the person whose works remain WILL BE rewarded, whereas the one whose works are "burned up" - that person will "suffer loss." It is a clear reference to suffering after this life, but before entering into the beatific vision of Heaven.<BR/><BR/>James Swan concludes:<BR/>> I'm sorry I haven't gotten to <BR/>> your blog entries yet, but then <BR/>> again, you took quite a while to <BR/>> write to me.<BR/> <BR/>Perhaps the reason it took me so long to write you is that I was not informed that you had posted a blog response about me and/or something I had written. When I blogged my response, I informed you here that I did so, I didn't wait for you to stumble upon it by accident well after the fact, (that's how I found your blog, using a Google search including my name).Scott Windsorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961374547503296840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-61117102587901141432008-10-01T10:06:00.000-04:002008-10-01T10:06:00.000-04:00Not sure how "suffer loss" of reward is a "clear r...Not sure how "suffer loss" of <I>reward</I> is a "clear reference" to purgatory. Certainly the man will probably be ashamed and greived that he did not do all he could do for his Savior, but this "suffering" of loss is, clearly not purgatory. The works are burned up, not the man. Seems like another vain attempt to see purgatory in any verse where fire/suffering is found. Luther's reading was clearly correct.bkayceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15735441833526239587noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-60884941097138711612008-10-01T06:06:00.000-04:002008-10-01T06:06:00.000-04:00I tried to post this response once before, but it ...<I>I tried to post this response once before, but it seems to have disappeared, so I will post it again</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, you posted it, but to a different blog entry:<BR/><BR/>https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=19795707&postID=2687950961013479735James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-12345250141317456512008-09-30T23:24:00.000-04:002008-09-30T23:24:00.000-04:00I tried to post this response once before, butit s...I tried to post this response once before, but<BR/>it seems to have disappeared, so I will post <BR/>it again now and also post a copy of it to my<BR/>blog: <A HREF="http://cathapol.blogspot.com/2008/09/luther-and-purgatory.html" REL="nofollow">Click here.</A> I am also not implying that<BR/>there was any ill-will on Mr. Swan's part and<BR/>that he may have deleted my earlier response. <BR/>I was quite tired that evening when I attempted<BR/>to post it - and it's possible after I did a<BR/>few "previews" that I neglected to click <BR/>"publish." So, on with the response:<BR/> <BR/>Mr. Swan, quoting Luther:<BR/><B><I>St Paul, in 1 Corinthians 3, says of the fire of the last day that it will prove the good works, and by it some shall be saved because they keep the faith, though their work may suffer loss. Of this fire also they make purgatory, according to their custom of twisting the Scriptures and making of them what they will.</I></B><BR/> <BR/>Well, there's no "twisting" done by Catholics <BR/>here! If Luther would just read on in the same <BR/>context he'd find Scripture provides us with <BR/>the truth of the matter. Let's do that now, <BR/>and I will <B>bold</B> the text which Luther <BR/>quotes from and <I>italicize</I> the text which <BR/>answers him:<BR/> <BR/>1Co 3:12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, <BR/>1Co 3:13 <B>each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.</B> <BR/>1Co 3:14 If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. <BR/>1Co 3:15 <I>If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.</I> (NASB)<BR/> <BR/>It must be noted, this "testing by fire" is done<BR/>as a judgment for those <B>ALREADY SAVED</B> and<BR/>it mentions that if a man's work is burned up, he<BR/>will "suffer loss." He will "suffer" yet, still<BR/>is saved! This is a <B>VERY CLEAR</B> reference<BR/>to Purgatory in Scripture. <BR/> <BR/>May God allow each of us to read this with objectivity<BR/>and humility. Purgatory IS scriptural - even if <BR/>Luther didn't see it as such. It also must be noted,<BR/>this article of Mr. Swan's reveals that even though<BR/>Luther did not believe Purgatory was scriptural, he<BR/>still believed it was true! Quoting again from Mr.<BR/>Swan's blog:<BR/> <BR/><B>"That there is a purgatory cannot be proved by those Scriptures which are approved and trustworthy. I have never yet denied that there is a purgatory, and I still hold that there is, as I have many times written and confessed, though I have no way of proving it incontrovertibly, either by Scripture or reason..."</B><BR/> <BR/>(We have just seen it is clearly found in Scripture)<BR/> <BR/><B>"...in a word, I have decided for myself that there is a purgatory, but cannot force any others to the same decision."</B><BR/>(1521, Luther's response to <I>Exsurge Domine</I> qtd. <BR/>at: <A HREF="http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2008/09/luther-2-maccabees-purgatoryrevisted.html" REL="nofollow">Beggars All Blog</A>.<BR/> <BR/>So Luther, though he THOUGHT he could not prove <BR/>Purgatory by Scripture - still believed in it.<BR/> <BR/>AMDG,<BR/>ScottScott Windsorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01961374547503296840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-33965476653975359452008-09-30T09:31:00.000-04:002008-09-30T09:31:00.000-04:002 Cor 5:8 is in the Catholic bible, is'nt it?2 Cor 5:8 is in the Catholic bible, is'nt it?bkayceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15735441833526239587noreply@blogger.com