tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post2791496783719733326..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: The historical “shoot the messenger” approach among Roman Catholic responses to Luther reveals the bankruptcy of their positionJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-13716517764921227142010-11-03T21:44:41.613-04:002010-11-03T21:44:41.613-04:00Yes the book "How The Pope Became Infallible:...Yes the book "How The Pope Became Infallible:Pius IX and the Politics of Persuasion" by August Bernhard Hasler mentions that Pope Pius IX "Pio Nono" was insane at the time of Vatican Ijohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12061818889296322158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-56144112107616724132010-11-03T14:17:26.500-04:002010-11-03T14:17:26.500-04:00Pages 77 to 102 are not shown in this preview.
Ev...<i>Pages 77 to 102 are not shown in this preview.</i><br /><br />Evidently that's the rest of the book! <br /><br />:-(John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-36676602999681530572010-11-03T14:15:18.927-04:002010-11-03T14:15:18.927-04:00Pages 73 to 75 are not shown in this preview.
:-)...<i>Pages 73 to 75 are not shown in this preview.</i><br /><br />:-)John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-37234450160406381332010-11-03T11:49:46.084-04:002010-11-03T11:49:46.084-04:00I haven't had a chance to read this yet, but i...I haven't had a chance to read this yet, but it looks interesting:<br /><br />Martin Bucer and Wessel Gansfort<br /><br />http://books.google.com/books?id=ObOQgL68k_UC&pg=PA67&dq=Wessel+Gansfort&hl=en&ei=Vii3TO2kDYy6sAPkmqCACQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEgQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=falseTim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-50925025502820323812010-11-03T04:50:04.800-04:002010-11-03T04:50:04.800-04:00From the title page of that work:
If I had read h...From the title page of that work:<br /><br /><i>If I had read his works earlier my enemies might think that Luther had absorbed everything from Wessel, his spirit is so in accord with mine. -- Luther's letter to Rhodius</i>John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-16497896561047791742010-11-03T04:45:08.852-04:002010-11-03T04:45:08.852-04:00Here is the link to Gansfort's On Ecclesiastic...Here is the link to Gansfort's <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=24dhAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Wessel+Gansfort&hl=en&ei=LCDRTKmjCYHGlQeoiqGDDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false" rel="nofollow">On Ecclesiastical Dignity and Power</a>John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-58001030195105197852010-11-03T04:40:46.660-04:002010-11-03T04:40:46.660-04:00As you look at reformers prior to Luther, please t...<i>As you look at reformers prior to Luther, please take a look at Wessel Gansfort, as well as Wycliffe and Huss. He lived during the time of Pope Sixtus IV, and his humanist-based criticisms of the monstrosities of the papal system are a must read. Luther read Gansfort. So should we. </i><br /><br />Tim, right now I'm putting together a post on the situation in the church around 1500, relying on Bernhard Lohse's "Martin Luther's Theology." He mentions Gansfort but not in this context. I'll have to look him up.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-71222818456725472472010-11-03T04:37:55.201-04:002010-11-03T04:37:55.201-04:00History is showing that Pius IX aka "Pio Nono...<i>History is showing that Pius IX aka "Pio Nono", the Pope who made Papal Infallibility a dogma of the Roman Church was quite insane aka a lunatic.</i><br /><br />I'd like to see a source on this as well. Kelly (Oxford Dictionary of the Popes) notes that he "removed all conciliarist interpretations of the role of the papacy," but did not describe him as insane. Rather, he had a "winning personality, kindly wit, and patience in adversity."John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-13686588577759450592010-11-02T23:07:19.142-04:002010-11-02T23:07:19.142-04:00John, where are you getting your information? That...John, where are you getting your information? That is a pretty serious charge.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-11225667311430824482010-11-02T22:03:12.853-04:002010-11-02T22:03:12.853-04:00We don't even have to go back as far as Luther...We don't even have to go back as far as Luthers's time to find a skeleton in the Roman closet. History is showing that Pius IX aka "Pio Nono", the Pope who made Papal Infallibility a dogma of the Roman Church was quite insane aka a lunatic. If he were "an average American citizen" he would not be allowed to sign any legal contracts or make any binding moral decisions. Yet this lunatic promulgated and made binding the dogma of Papal Infallibility in which the souls of millions must believe it under pain of mortal sin and hellfire if they do not believe this dogma declared and made binding by an insane individualjohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12061818889296322158noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-63142143369218419772010-11-02T13:31:03.028-04:002010-11-02T13:31:03.028-04:00Thanks Tim, I'll look him up.Thanks Tim, I'll look him up.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-51624810066543700162010-11-02T10:59:35.229-04:002010-11-02T10:59:35.229-04:00As you look at reformers prior to Luther, please t...As you look at reformers prior to Luther, please take a look at Wessel Gansfort, as well as Wycliffe and Huss. He lived during the time of Pope Sixtus IV, and his humanist-based criticisms of the monstrosities of the papal system are a must read. Luther read Gansfort. So should we. You can find a two-volume set of his works on Google Books for free. Pay particular attention to "On Ecclesiastical Dignity and Power."<br /><br />Gansfort was a tireless critic of the papalist system, and extremely learned in Scripture and other humanist emphases. One of his best arguments takes on the "Church as Ship of Peter" trope that the papalists relied upon so heavily. Gansfort argues, quite correctly, I believe, that when the captain of a ship goes insane or otherwise demonstrates a course that will wreck the ship, it is the duty of the passengers to remove him from the helm and pilot the ship themselves. This argument was made barely 30 years before Luther's reforms began.<br /><br />There are other significant figures as well. One, whose name escapes me at the moment, told a group of late 15th century prelates who would not listen to his cries for reform, "Jesus is sending other reformers after me. You will want to listen to them, but by then it will be too late."Tim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-60142405845533913282010-11-02T10:59:34.052-04:002010-11-02T10:59:34.052-04:00As you look at reformers prior to Luther, please t...As you look at reformers prior to Luther, please take a look at Wessel Gansfort, as well as Wycliffe and Huss. He lived during the time of Pope Sixtus IV, and his humanist-based criticisms of the monstrosities of the papal system are a must read. Luther read Gansfort. So should we. You can find a two-volume set of his works on Google Books for free. Pay particular attention to "On Ecclesiastical Dignity and Power."<br /><br />Gansfort was a tireless critic of the papalist system, and extremely learned in Scripture and other humanist emphases. One of his best arguments takes on the "Church as Ship of Peter" trope that the papalists relied upon so heavily. Gansfort argues, quite correctly, I believe, that when the captain of a ship goes insane or otherwise demonstrates a course that will wreck the ship, it is the duty of the passengers to remove him from the helm and pilot the ship themselves. This argument was made barely 30 years before Luther's reforms began.<br /><br />There are other significant figures as well. One, whose name escapes me at the moment, told a group of late 15th century prelates who would not listen to his cries for reform, "Jesus is sending other reformers after me. You will want to listen to them, but by then it will be too late."Tim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-44994764252192855982010-11-02T10:08:57.449-04:002010-11-02T10:08:57.449-04:00"...Luther used to punch people's favorit..."...Luther used to punch people's favorite aunties in the face just for fun..."<br /><br />Lol, Andrew, I can't even think up a good comeback for this one :-)John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-22900708724720829512010-11-02T10:02:34.922-04:002010-11-02T10:02:34.922-04:00Why can't you Luther worshiping, schismatic, h...Why can't you Luther worshiping, schismatic, heretical, self-popes just quit trying to defend Martin Luther. I don't know if you know this, but Luther used to punch people's favorite aunties in the face just for fun.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-73916897619494874162010-11-02T08:37:20.812-04:002010-11-02T08:37:20.812-04:00They should just apply their own methodology of di...<i>They should just apply their own methodology of discrediting Luther to their own line of popes.</i><br /><br />That would be interesting. Would any of our "inconsistency detectors" notice any double standard there? <br /><br />Doublessly not. Luther tried to "teach," whereas those popes, "for all the trains and the banks that they robbed, they never taught anyone." <br /><br />So long as the placeholders were in place, [vile though they were], the lineage continues.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-71119103996645123532010-11-02T08:19:55.474-04:002010-11-02T08:19:55.474-04:00"The older strand tends to overly vilify him,...<i>"The older strand tends to overly vilify him, as do Internet apologists and zealous Roman Catholic laymen. In their minds, if it can proved that he was such a wretched and overt sinner, his theological insights and Reformation work have no value."</i><br /><br />They should just apply their own methodology of discrediting Luther to their own line of popes.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.com