tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post2694787257460494644..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Catholics: Blurring Lines with MuslimsJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-53301401090074271962008-03-14T12:42:00.000-04:002008-03-14T12:42:00.000-04:00Jesus said:"I am the true vine, and my Father is t...<B>Jesus</B> said:<BR/>"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. <BR/><BR/>"You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. <BR/><BR/> "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. <BR/><BR/>"If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. <BR/><BR/>"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. <BR/> <BR/>"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete." <I>(John 15: 1-11)</I><BR/><BR/><B>Carrie</B> said:<BR/>"We do not need to keep the law to earn or <B>keep</B> our salvation."<BR/><BR/>Carrie, my sister in Christ:<BR/>I fear that you again misunderstand an elemental aspect of the nature of we who are grafted in. According to the Master indeed, we do not earn our salvation which is by grace (unmerited favor); however He is clear that we can reject it by our actions. <BR/><BR/>Christ warns us that The Father shall remove us from the vine (from Christ Himself) if we do not produce fruit. He also commands us remain in Him--a command that would be utterly absurd if we had no choice but to always so remain. <BR/><BR/>How then do we remain in His love? <BR/><BR/>Jesus said, “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.”<BR/><BR/>Other examples in scripture are equally explicit and legion. <BR/><BR/>Please understand that your assertions (or Calvin's) not withstanding, I hope you can understand how I will take the direct teaching of Christ himself over base contrary assertion against Him.<BR/><BR/>May great blessings of the example and teaching of our Savior, Jesus Christ descend upon you and remain with you forever to the glory of God the Father. Amen.<BR/><BR/>I remain by His grace,<BR/>Your humble servant and brother in Christ,<BR/>--Theo------- Theo -------https://www.blogger.com/profile/12764721283763955007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-9552453773656389172008-03-10T16:16:00.000-04:002008-03-10T16:16:00.000-04:00As if the law is still in effect, but now we have ...<I> As if the law is still in effect, but now we have help with grace to meet its requirements. </I><BR/><BR/>Let me qualify this statement. <BR/><BR/>We do still need to try and be obedient to the moral law, and through Christ we can do so better, but that has nothing to do with justification. <BR/><BR/>We do not need to keep the law to earn or <B>keep</B> our salvation.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52678296599413078742008-03-10T16:01:00.000-04:002008-03-10T16:01:00.000-04:00theden, I am looking through the rest of your comm...theden, <BR/><BR/>I am looking through the rest of your comments and there are a lot of problems. I’ll try to answer a few points, but until you can work out your misreading of the beginning of Romans, this is likely a futile exercise on my part.<BR/><BR/><I>Paul is NOT TALKING ABOUT THOSE WHO SIN but rather those who observe the law.</I><BR/><BR/>Huh? All have sinned. If you know someone in all of human history (besides Christ) who hasn’t sinned then you have just trumped God. Christ came b/c there was NO OTHER WAY – men could not save themselves through observing the law in any shape or form. <BR/><BR/><I>If one is saved through the law, that causes a few problems. One is that it does not give the opportunity for people outside of the law (gentiles) to be saved</I><BR/><BR/>NO, no one was ever saved through the law (Gal 3:11). The OT Jews were all saved by faith (Rom 4, Hebr 11). The law was only a schoolmaster (Gal 3:24)!!<BR/><BR/><I>secondly, that it can lead one to believe that one can be saved strictly by obedience to the law.</I><BR/><BR/>This seems to conflict with what you just said, I’m thinking you have confused the purpose of the law.<BR/><BR/><I>Thirdly, the Mosaic law had evolved to the point that it was impossible to follow it and not break it.</I><BR/><BR/>No! It didn’t evolve to a point that it was impossible, it NEVER was possible. <BR/><BR/><I>And then third, that after our justification, we must still obedient to the law (now Christ’s commandments) because we are now alive in Christ and through His grace, we can be obedient to the law.</I><BR/><BR/>And this is wrong. Your understanding of the law, justification, redemption all seem to be off. As if the law is still in effect, but now we have help with grace to meet its requirements. You really need to do a study on the purpose of the law.<BR/><BR/>And I am guessing this misunderstanding of the law and grace is bleeding over into your understanding of salvation of those who do not know Christ but “follow the dictates of their conscience”. Grace leads people to salvation through Christ through overt belief in him, it does not lead people to observing the some form of the law (good works).<BR/><BR/><I>There is NOTHING more important than loving God with all your heart, all your mind and with all your strength. That's the point of what I'm trying to tell you.</I><BR/><BR/>You cannot love God if you do not even know who he is. Muslims do not know the one true God. Whatever worship they seem to be doing, it is worthless if not directed to the one true God of the Bible.<BR/><BR/>And religion is not people searching for the one true God, but mostly people making their own idols. Look to Romans 1.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-20246351277325090932008-03-10T15:24:00.000-04:002008-03-10T15:24:00.000-04:00The Church is saying they don’t know but they hold...<I>The Church is saying they don’t know but they hold out the possibility that MAYBE they can be saved (through Christ) because without that possibility, God is not merciful but rather would be a monster who does not show mercy. </I><BR/><BR/>Wow!<BR/><BR/>Somehow I missed the part of your comment earlier. Are you sure you want to say that?<BR/><BR/>(I wouldn't)Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-64644777436063472822008-03-10T08:44:00.000-04:002008-03-10T08:44:00.000-04:00When using “accuse” and “defend” with “judge” I th...<I>When using “accuse” and “defend” with “judge” I think it’s pretty clear what they’re talking about. </I><BR/><BR/>You are still misreading that section. Verses 13-15 should be read as parenthesized (word?) - you are getting tripped up by the sentence structure. <BR/><BR/>"Accuse" and "Defend" go with the thoughts and elaborate the prior 2 phrases "since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,".<BR/><BR/>What is accusing and defending? Their thoughts. How would "their thoughts" defend them from judgment? That doesn't even make sense. Their thoughts accuse or defend them of breaking the natural law that is written on their hearts. Their "thoughts" show that they had a law to follow and will leave them without an excuse on the day of judgment.<BR/><BR/>I don't have time to address the rest of your comment now.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904685811197057474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-18931224815747555932008-03-10T08:24:00.000-04:002008-03-10T08:24:00.000-04:00For reference, my question was as follows: "Carrie...<I>For reference, my question was as follows: "Carrie, when a Catholic says that he or she worships the same God as a Muslim, what does (s)he mean?"</I><BR/><BR/>I have read conflicting viewpoints from Catholic's, even on this blog. And since there is no infallible decision that I know of, all I can do is piece together assertions from Popes and others in the hierarchy and come to a conclusion.<BR/><BR/>But whether whatever the answer is, the underlying reasoning in the Catholic approach is faulty as evident from the discussion here. And that is really what I am trying to flush out.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12904685811197057474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-73858855325793610092008-03-09T15:39:00.000-04:002008-03-09T15:39:00.000-04:00Carrie said: "David Waltz - why don't you answer t...Carrie said: "David Waltz - why don't you answer this question for "hidden one"."<BR/><BR/>Carrie, I'm still waiting for your answer to my question. If I wanted to know what David Waltz thinks your position is, I'd have asked him.<BR/><BR/>(For reference, my question was as follows: "Carrie, when a Catholic says that he or she worships the same God as a Muslim, what does (s)he mean?")Hidden Onehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06042188431683942338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-18416584689302318232008-03-08T22:31:00.000-05:002008-03-08T22:31:00.000-05:00Meanwhile others continue to neglect Romans 10 and...Meanwhile others continue to neglect Romans 10 and Acts 17. :-)<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>RdPFred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-54951007422974323752008-03-08T21:00:00.000-05:002008-03-08T21:00:00.000-05:00Let the reader note that TheDen continues to negle...Let the reader note that TheDen continues to neglect Romans 3 in his analyses.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-4315984294859196542008-03-08T20:05:00.000-05:002008-03-08T20:05:00.000-05:00Carrie,What the Church is talking about is a perso...Carrie,<BR/><BR/>What the Church is talking about is a person who has never heard of Jesus Christ. Let’s say there’s some poor Muslim who lives in some small town and through no fault of their own has never seen a Christian or heard of Jesus Christ. Does God automatically condemn that person to Hell? <BR/><BR/>The Church is saying they don’t know but they hold out the possibility that MAYBE they can be saved (through Christ) because without that possibility, God is not merciful but rather would be a monster who does not show mercy. <BR/><BR/>Regarding Romans 2:12, yes, I agree. All who sin outside the law will perish without reference to it. Read v. 13: “those who observe the law will be justified…” then read v. 14: “Gentiles who do not have the law by nature OBSERVE THE PRESCRIPTIONS OF THE LAW…” Paul is NOT TALKING ABOUT THOSE WHO SIN but rather those who observe the law. <BR/><BR/>You're right…all who sin outside the law will perish. However, as Paul says, those who observe the law will be judged by Christ and their conflicting thoughts ACCUSE OR EVEN DEFEND THEM. <BR/><BR/>I am not missing the point of Romans 1-3. What it’s talking about is that we are not saved through the law. We are saved through our faith. If one is saved through the law, that causes a few problems. One is that it does not give the opportunity for people outside of the law (gentiles) to be saved and secondly, that it can lead one to believe that one can be saved strictly by obedience to the law. Thirdly, the Mosaic law had evolved to the point that it was impossible to follow it and not break it. So it allows for no chance for salvation for gentiles and a false security in salvation for the Jews. <BR/><BR/>Paul tells us that first off, we all need salvation because all of us are sinners. Secondly, we are saved through our faith and not through our obedience to the law. And then third, that after our justification, we must still obedient to the law (now Christ’s commandments) because we are now alive in Christ and through His grace, we can be obedient to the law.<BR/><BR/>When talking about a Muslim (or any other non-Christian) who could be saved, the Catechism is clear that a person can only do this through God’s grace. if a person who doesn’t know Christ “but seeks God with a sincere heart and , MOVED BY GRACE…” then that person can be saved but only with God’s help and only through Jesus Christ. <BR/><BR/>“Ever see a cartoon where a character has an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other whispering in his ear? Similar idea. When you feel guilty before doing something wrong, or justify why doing wrong is okay, your "thoughts" are showing the law written on your heart. “<BR/><BR/>I don’t think that’s right. In that same sentence, it says that God will judge them. When using “accuse” and “defend” with “judge” I think it’s pretty clear what they’re talking about. <BR/><BR/>My understanding is also in agreement with Acts 10:35:<BR/><BR/>“Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him”<BR/><BR/>Essentially, we do everything not out of strict obedience to the law but rather out of love for God. It's the love for God that's important. Faith can move mountains but without love, we are nothing. <BR/><BR/>There is NOTHING more important than loving God with all your heart, all your mind and with all your strength. That's the point of what I'm trying to tell you.TheDenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01249467690546096072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1427034539709820282008-03-08T17:54:00.000-05:002008-03-08T17:54:00.000-05:00Some if not many, think that when the Bible speaks...Some if not many, think that when the Bible speaks of faith, it is referring to generic faith. Also take the case of mercy or grace, these can be thought of in the generic sense in relation to God.<BR/><BR/>God does not rest in our believin in Him as a merciful gracious God. Grace is not grace if it is not seen in the giving of God's Son to pay for our sins, there is no other mercy nor grace that God ultimately gives except in the Son.<BR/><BR/>The way God shows mercy is by bringing us to the Son so that we might rest all our hope in His finished work and so find peace with Him.<BR/><BR/>Generic faith will still damn us.<BR/><BR/>LPCLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-66606743406067258622008-03-08T16:22:00.000-05:002008-03-08T16:22:00.000-05:00Paragraph 848 says that God has the ability to lea...<I>Paragraph 848 says that God has the ability to lead them to that faith. </I><BR/><BR/>To a "faith" that is not aware of Christ. Please, this is not the faith of the Bible.<BR/><BR/><I>Again…Romans 2:14-16. It DOES NOT say these people are doomed but rather that “when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature OBSERVE THE PRESCRIPTIONS OF THE LAW…” </I><BR/><BR/>Read it again: "All who sin apart from the law will also <B>perish</B> apart from the law". To say they won't perish you would have to say they have not sinned, but that is not possible since we will see in Romans 3 that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". <BR/><BR/>You have totally missed the point of Romans 1-3 where Paul masterfully explains how ALL men are under sin, Jew or Gentile, and none will escape the wrath of God against sin by their own works. <BR/><BR/>Paul has put everyone on the same level playing field: "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." That is the "bad news" just prior to giving the "good news", "BUT NOW a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."<BR/><BR/>The only way to be righteous before God is through faith in Christ to those <B>who believe</B>. Overt faith, not some "faith" where they "try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience". <BR/><BR/><I>Defend them from what? From Christ’s judgment. </I><BR/><BR/>Wrong. <BR/><BR/>"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and <B>their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.</B>"<BR/><BR/>Ever see a cartoon where a character has an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other whispering in his ear? Similar idea. When you feel guilty before doing something wrong, or justify why doing wrong is okay, your "thoughts" are showing the law written on your heart. <BR/><BR/>The KJV has parentheses around verses 13-15. Try reading it that way and you may see the flow better.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-48595573406227689342008-03-07T23:17:00.000-05:002008-03-07T23:17:00.000-05:00Rhology,“I didn't realise that depraved unregenera...Rhology,<BR/><BR/>“I didn't realise that depraved unregenerate man could worship God. Did I miss something?” Where does it say (in Romans 3) that a depraved unregenerate man could not worship God?<BR/><BR/>Genesis 4:3-4 highlights two types of worship. One type is pleasing to God and the other type is not. One sacrifices “one of the best firstlings” and the other was “an offering.” God looked favorably on one and not the other. <BR/><BR/>There are a few problems with Cain’s worship that God found displeasing. First, he showed greed by not offering to God his “best” and rather chose to save it for himself. Secondly, he showed envy by murdering his brother because his sacrifice was better and third, he showed that his eyes were not fully on God because he was watching his brother’s worship instead of focusing his eyes on God. <BR/><BR/>Cain’s imperfect worship would show that he was depraved and unregenerate. His imperfect worship showed that God was not first in his heart and led to more sin and the eventual killing of his brother. <BR/><BR/>So yes, any man can worship God but perfect worship is most pleasing to Him. As Christians, our worship should involve Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross which was “the best firstling” offered to God. This is most pleasing to Him as it’s the only perfect sacrifice ever offered. Everything else would pale in comparison. <BR/><BR/>Is Muslim worship displeasing to God? I don’t know. I’m not Him. But yes, they can worship Him albeit it’s not as pleasing in God’s eyes as Christian worship.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Carrie,<BR/><BR/>I’m not obfuscating anything. Paragraph 848 says that God has the ability to lead them to that faith. Actually, nowhere in Scripture does it say you have to have “overt faith” as you put it. It says that you have to have faith. This is not a loophole. The Church leaves open the hope that God will have mercy on whom he wills and that may include those who have not had the opportunity to know Christ.<BR/><BR/>“This doctrine of theirs is not scriptural, it is their answer to ‘what about those who never heard or can't understand’". <BR/><BR/>Again…Romans 2:14-16. It DOES NOT say these people are doomed but rather that “when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature OBSERVE THE PRESCRIPTIONS OF THE LAW…” Paul is saying that if a Gentile observes the law in his heart, he will be judged by Jesus Christ accordingly and that their thoughts will either “accuse or even defend them.” Defend them from what? From Christ’s judgment. Paul is leaving the hope open that there are Gentiles who may have “a law unto themselves” who will be saved by Christ Jesus.TheDenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01249467690546096072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-45446137550190847942008-03-07T15:45:00.000-05:002008-03-07T15:45:00.000-05:00Maybe we should wager, I don't know, a commentary ...<I>Maybe we should wager, I don't know, a commentary on Hebrews!</I><BR/><BR/>I think a few people here could benefit from a commentary on Romans.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-78876414596831494202008-03-07T15:05:00.000-05:002008-03-07T15:05:00.000-05:00Just answer my question and you'll have yours, RdP...<I>Just answer my question and you'll have yours, RdP.</I><BR/><BR/>I thought that I did answer your question, but maybe I've missed one.<BR/><BR/><I>Um, b/c Jesus is God and they deny that. For one thing.</I><BR/><BR/>So did the Jews of Paul's day, whom you concede worshiped the true God.<BR/><BR/><I>B/c they think Ab raised the knife above Ishmael and not Isaac.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, they have errors in their beliefs. Of course. No one is denying that. So did the Jews of Paul's day, who denied that Jesus was the Messiah but who also worshiped the true God (though not according to knowledge).<BR/><BR/><I>B/c they think God is Unitarian.</I><BR/><BR/>...and the Jews of Paul's day denied the Trinity or any less than absolute oneness in God, too.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>RdPFred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85393886999766456522008-03-07T14:47:00.000-05:002008-03-07T14:47:00.000-05:00Just answer my question and you'll have yours, RdP...Just answer my question and you'll have yours, RdP.<BR/>Rom 10:2 - they have a zeal for God, <B>but not according to knowledge</B>. If they don't KNOW who God is... in that sense, I'll give you that I'd be happy to grant the parallel between Jews and Muslims.<BR/><BR/><I>if they say that they worship the God of Abraham, why should we not take them at their word?</I><BR/><BR/>Um, b/c Jesus is God and they deny that. For one thing.<BR/>B/c they think Ab raised the knife above Ishmael and not Isaac.<BR/>B/c they think God is Unitarian.<BR/><BR/><I>Yet I don't know of any Protestants who say that the Jews of Paul's day worshiped a false god.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, b/c they knew God, once upon a time. Theirs were the oracles of God and all that. Not so for Muslims.<BR/>But I'd like you to come right out and tell us whether you agree with TheDen when he says "THIS DOESN’T MEAN THAT MUSLIMS ARE SAVED. They still must turn to Christ sometime before their death."<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85641285219683348702008-03-07T14:36:00.000-05:002008-03-07T14:36:00.000-05:00Worshiping God is a spiritually good thing, right?...<I>Worshiping God is a spiritually good thing, right?<BR/>Romans 3 says unregenerate man doesn't do it.</I><BR/><BR/>Did the Jews in Paul's day worship the true God?<BR/><BR/>If so, were they regenerate or not? If they were, how can this be since they denied that Jesus was their Messiah?<BR/><BR/>If, however, the Jews of Paul's day did not worship the true God, Please explain Paul's words in Romans 10:2. Thanks.<BR/><BR/>Also, note Isa. 1:12-15, where God rejects the worship of Israel. It's not that they weren't worshiping him in what they were doing; it's that he abhorred their worship on account of their sins. The point being: worship does not imply that the worshiper is in right relationship to the one he worships. Note that Christ himself says (to the Samaritan woman), "You worship what you do not know" (John 4:22).<BR/><BR/><I>You are mistaking the Acts 17 psg. They DIDN'T know the One True God, that's his whole point.</I><BR/><BR/>I've re-read my post, and I'm obviously missing the part where I said that they did know him. I bold-faced Paul's statement that they worship God in ignorance, and I repeated that statement myself. I said (because Paul did) that they worshiped God in ignorance.<BR/><BR/><I>Yet they offered worship to an unknown god.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, and Paul identifies that unknown God with our God: "What you therefore worship in ignorance, <B>that</B> I proclaim to you."<BR/><BR/><I>Muslims have never had a relationship with TOTGod</I><BR/><BR/>I am no Islamic scholar, nor even a hobbyist of the topic. But if they say that they worship the God of Abraham, why should we not take them at their word? It doesn't make them right; they obviously worship in ignorance.<BR/><BR/><I>Why say that they are similar?</I><BR/><BR/>Because you (and, once upon a time, I myself) say that they do not worship the true God because of the errors in their understanding of who God is. But the Jews have similar misunderstandings, inasmuch as they deny the Trinity and deny that Jesus was the Messiah. Yet I don't know of any Protestants who say that the Jews of Paul's day worshiped a false god.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/><BR/>RdPFred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-58267518961198741282008-03-07T14:30:00.000-05:002008-03-07T14:30:00.000-05:00Oh. That's funny, I could've sworn the next quest...Oh. That's funny, I could've sworn the next question from RCs would be "Well, but isn't that just your private interpretation?!?!?!" <BR/><BR/>Maybe we should wager, I don't know, a commentary on Hebrews!Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-74604008732031449032008-03-07T14:14:00.000-05:002008-03-07T14:14:00.000-05:00Nowhere does it say in the catechism that Salvatio...<I>Nowhere does it say in the catechism that Salvation is outside of Christ. As I'm sure you know. The Church teaches that there is no Salvation outside of the Church. So, obviously you're misreading CCC#847.</I><BR/><BR/>Rhology, <BR/><BR/>He's obfuscating here. They say that any salvation is still "mysteriously" through the Church (and Christ) but this mysterious path does not include faith in Christ. So they say it is through Christ, but it is not through overt faith in Christ. It's a loophole.<BR/><BR/>This example from Catholic answers may help:<BR/><BR/>"CATHOLIC: It is not as confused as you imagine. Let’s make some important distinctions: The Church is necessary, as I have said, because no one will be saved apart from Christ. If the Church were suddenly taken out of the world, the knowledge of Christ would be lost. So I agree with our Fundamentalist friend here on the necessity of Christ and the Church for salvation, but he insists also that faith in Christ must be conscious and explicit for a person to be saved. Am I accurate in stating your position?<BR/><BR/>OBJECTOR TWO: Yes. The Bible says, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" (Acts 16:31). I don’t know so much about belonging to the Church. If you mean the Roman Catholic Church, then the Church is definitely not necessary for salvation. If you mean the Church generically—that is, the body of Christ—then I might agree. But my point is that the Catholic Church can’t logically claim that Christ is necessary for salvation and also that non-Christians have the possibility of salvation.<BR/><BR/>CATHOLIC: We can claim both because we know from Scripture that Christ and the Church are necessary, but we also don’t know how many people without a conscious and explicit knowledge of Christ may still be united to him in a way known only to God.<BR/><BR/>OBJECTOR ONE: Let me see if I understand you. Christ and the Church are necessary but the Church also allows that there may be those outside the Church who are united to Christ without knowing that they are united to him. That position is not as harsh and condemning as I first thought but I still think that it comes down to the same thing. You insist on salvation only through Christ.<BR/><BR/>CATHOLIC: Guilty as charged. The Catholic Church insists on salvation only through Christ because it is the unchanging witness of Scripture and Christian Tradition. We cannot surrender the centrality of Christ or the Church without abandoning our faith and heritage. <B>But you are also right when you say that there may be people who are united to Christ while not being aware of it.</B> We don’t say that we know there are such people. We say that because we don’t know if those outside the Church are cut off from Christ."<A HREF="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0403sbs.asp" REL="nofollow">source</A><BR/><BR/>So, you can have saving faith in Christ but be unaware of it. <BR/><BR/>Now, the next question will come from the Catholics saying - what about infants and the mentally-challenged? This doctrine of theirs is not scriptural, it is their answer to "what about those who never heard or can't understand".Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-19430421535847230342008-03-07T13:40:00.000-05:002008-03-07T13:40:00.000-05:00Worshiping God is a spiritually good thing, right?...Worshiping God is a spiritually good thing, right?<BR/>Romans 3 says unregenerate man doesn't do it.<BR/>You are mistaking the Acts 17 psg. They DIDN'T know the One True God, that's his whole point. Just saying that there's a god we don't know is not to worship or know the One True God. Yet they offered worship to an unknown god. Could have been any one of a number (since their imagination was so fertile) yet Paul decided to seize upon that as a good illustration, a cultural touching point.<BR/><BR/>Muslims have never had a relationship with TOTGod in their whole existence as a religion, unlike the Jews. Why say that they are similar?<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-4646310869669410522008-03-07T13:25:00.000-05:002008-03-07T13:25:00.000-05:00I didn't realise that depraved unregenerate man co...<I>I didn't realise that depraved unregenerate man could worship God. Did I miss something?</I><BR/><BR/>"Then Paul stood up in the midst of the Areopagus, and said, "Men of Athens, I see that in every respect you are extremely religious. For as I was going about and observing objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: 'To the Unknown God.' <B>What therefore you worship in ignorance,</B> that I proclaim to you..." (Acts 17:22-23, emphasis added).<BR/><BR/>With respect to Muslims specifically, I think that a sufficiently valid comparison may be drawn with Israel. St. Paul says of the Jews, "I bear them witness that they have zeal for God, but not according to knowledge" (Rom. 10:2). Jews deny the Trinity, and yet Paul affirms that they have zeal for God. He also says that the unregenerate Athenian pagans worshiped God in ignorance.<BR/><BR/>Consequently it is not very much of a stretch for me to concede what Muslims insist, just as Paul affirmed what the Jews said: that they worship the God of Abraham. Clearly they do not do so according to knowledge, a circumstance which is not unlike the Jews and the Athenians. The way of salvation for Jews and Muslims, Protestants and Orthodox and Catholics, remains the same, however: Christ. And in any case, what the Church says about baptism is likewise true for all: "The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude" (<A HREF="http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM" REL="nofollow">CCC 1257</A>).<BR/><BR/>Peace, <BR/><BR/>RdPFred Noltiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10203885485191808284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-20694510332214310162008-03-07T12:28:00.000-05:002008-03-07T12:28:00.000-05:00If you think that adequately explains the statemen...If you think that adequately explains the statement "together with us worship the One True God", OK, fine.<BR/><BR/>I didn't realise that depraved unregenerate man could worship God. Did I miss something?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-77242101149275091912008-03-07T12:23:00.000-05:002008-03-07T12:23:00.000-05:00Rhology,“So Muslims can be saved if they come into...Rhology,<BR/><BR/><BR/>“So Muslims can be saved if they come into the church? “<BR/><BR/>Yes. That’s the ONLY way for Salvation. Through Jesus Christ in His church. If you continue on to CCC#848, it says:<BR/><BR/>848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338<BR/><BR/>This means that God can save whomever He wants. Specifically those who are COMPLETELY ignorant of the Gospel. (This does not free us from our call to evangelize.) This is what I was trying to explain that if Jesus Christ appears to a Muslim and says, “follow Me” at the point of the Muslim’s death and they accept, they will be saved. <BR/><BR/>Ultimately, the Church teaches that Salvation is up to God. He has the power and ability to save whomever He wants. It leaves open the hope that if a person has not heard the Gospel that perhaps God will have mercy on them. <BR/><BR/>“Why then say that they participate in the plan of salvation?”<BR/><BR/>The plan of salvation is for ALL MEN. Christ’s redemption on the cross is open to all of humanity (this includes Jews, Muslims Buddhists, etc.). Muslims (and all other non-Christians) share in that opportunity ONLY if they turn to Christ sometime before their death. God’s desire is for all men to be saved. That salvation is only through Jesus Christ. <BR/><BR/>“Why say that they acknowledge the Creator, and later say that they ‘together with us worship the One True God’?<BR/><BR/>Because Muslims historically trace their roots back to Ishmael who was the first son of Abraham through Hagar. They are sons of Abraham and God promises that God will make a “great nation” of Ishmael; however, in Genesis, it says that the inheritance is through Isaac and not Ishmael. (Genesis 21: 11-13) So, although they don’t share in Abraham’s promise (through Isaac), they still acknowledge the Creator—through Abraham and worship the One True God. <BR/><BR/>THIS DOESN’T MEAN THAT MUSLIMS ARE SAVED. They still must turn to Christ sometime before their death.TheDenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01249467690546096072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52185092565186324502008-03-07T10:57:00.000-05:002008-03-07T10:57:00.000-05:00So Muslims can be saved if they come into the chur...So Muslims can be saved if they come into the church? <BR/>Why then say that they participate in the plan of salvation?<BR/>Why say that they acknowledge the Creator, and later say that they "together with us worship the One True God"?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-14488657905124517512008-03-07T10:55:00.000-05:002008-03-07T10:55:00.000-05:00Rhology,How would a Muslim be saved?845 To reunite...Rhology,<BR/><BR/>How would a Muslim be saved?<BR/><BR/>845 <B>To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation.</B> <BR/><BR/>846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] <B> Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ </B> the Head through the Church which is his Body<BR/><BR/><BR/>You can't stop at paragraph 841. You need to keep reading through paragraph 847.TheDenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01249467690546096072noreply@blogger.com