tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post2659673735316523689..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Did Tetzel Really Say "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs"?James Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-76714407575949610142012-01-18T06:53:33.554-05:002012-01-18T06:53:33.554-05:00It's impossible to check every fact in every s...It's impossible to check every fact in every source.<br /><br />I don't often use Wiki for Reformation research, particularly because I have an extensive library of materials on the Reformation written by qualified scholars. <br /><br />I also think it's humorous a few Wiki pages refer to some of my writings for references. I certainly didn't add those links, nor do I know who did.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-87662037347604865732012-01-17T23:31:23.531-05:002012-01-17T23:31:23.531-05:00Thanks. I do not where the idea came that all the ...Thanks. I do not where the idea came that all the money went to Albrecht, as the ref source states, <br /><br />Half the proceeds in his province were to go to him, half to Leo X. for building the basilica of St Peter's at Rome. (http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Johann_Tetzel) <br /><br />Like with the Mormons (esp. with the Mormons!) i think there is a problem with editors on WP who are defenders of these faiths removing negativity them toward, or liberals against faith. I try to make such more objective in such a case, and so for now that sourced statement corrects the former.PeaceByJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08754948549904895669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-14536613514697266832012-01-17T15:25:52.320-05:002012-01-17T15:25:52.320-05:00Yes, I know about the letter. Unless it's sudd...Yes, I know about the letter. Unless it's suddenly appeared, the letter is not extant:<br /><br />LUTHER TO JOHN TETZEL AT LEIPSIC. De Wette-Seidemann, vi. 18. (Shortly before August II, 1519.)<br />Not only the reputation, but also the health of the indulgence-seller, John Tetzel, was broken by the storm started in 1517. When Luther heard that he was mortally ill, he wrote to comfort him, and bade him "not to be troubled, for the matter did not begin on his account, but the child had quite a different father." The letter is lost, but this quotation is preserved in Emser's: Auff des Stieres su Wittenberg wiettende replica.<br /><br />http://books.google.com/books?id=m4r3cwHjnvUC&pg=PA570#v=onepage&q&f=false<br /><br /><i>Also, was it true that Tetzel's fund raising was not at all for the reconstruction of St. Peter's Basilica, but towards helping the Archbishop of Mainz, Albert of Brandenburg, pay off his simony loan?</i><br /><br />See Brecht's first volume on Luther- Half of the money raised by the sale of indulgences was to go to Rome, the other half went to the Fugger Banking house, which loaned him the money to buy his office.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-31367329118510250182012-01-16T22:35:44.684-05:002012-01-16T22:35:44.684-05:00Thanks. Later maybe more could be added. Did you k...Thanks. Later maybe more could be added. Did you know about the letter the WP article says Luther wrote to Tetzel:<br /><br />Tetzel died in Leipzig in 1519. At the time of his death, Tetzel had fallen into disrepute and was shunned by the public. On his deathbed, Tetzel received a magnanimously penned correspondence from Martin Luther, stating that the child (i.e. the scandal) had a different father.[3]<br /><br />Also, was it true that Tetzel's fund raising was not at all for the reconstruction of St. Peter's Basilica, but towards helping the Archbishop of Mainz, Albert of Brandenburg, pay off his simony loan?PeaceByJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08754948549904895669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39064307191820928892012-01-16T15:24:24.291-05:002012-01-16T15:24:24.291-05:00In the blog post above, I link to Pastor's boo...In the blog post above, I link to Pastor's book. I also link to the commission of indulgences that Tetzel had, so you can read an excerpt from it yourself and see that he certainly did teach what the jingle claims, and was instructed to.<br /><br />Even Grisar states "the more highly placed Indulgence Commissaries did not scruple, in their official proclamations, to set forth as certain this doubtful scholastic opinion". <br /><br />In the extant sermons of Tetzel, he does say one who purchases an indulgence must be contrite. Roman Catholic historians (like Pastor) highlight that fact, as if this excuses Tetzel for what he did preach.<br /><br />As I state above,during this time period there was no official doctrine or dogma as to the effect of the indulgence upon those in Purgatory. So, saying "Tetzel overstated Catholic doctrine in regard to indulgences for the dead, but his teaching on indulgences for the living was orthodox" is anachronism.<br /><br />On the bright side, the bit about Cajetan is accurate.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-59253083022188168112012-01-16T09:08:08.122-05:002012-01-16T09:08:08.122-05:00What think ye of the WP entry on
Tetzel overstate...What think ye of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel#Doctrinal_position%22" rel="nofollow">WP </a>entry on<br /><br />Tetzel overstated Catholic doctrine in regard to indulgences for the dead, but his teaching on indulgences for the living was orthodox. He became known for a couplet attributed to him: :"As soon as a coin in the coffer rings / the soul from purgatory springs."[3] German: "Wenn die Münze im Kästlein klingt, die Seele in den Himmel springt". This often-quoted saying was exaggerated. German Catholic historian of the Papacy, Ludwig von Pastor explains[4]:<br /><br /> The Papal Bull of indulgence gave no sanction whatever to this proposition. It was a vague scholastic opinion, rejected by the Sorbonne in 1482, and again in 1518, and certainly not a doctrine of the Church, which was thus improperly put forward as dogmatic truth.<br /><br />Pastor notes that the leading theologian Cardinal Thomas Cajetan opposed these extravagances.PeaceByJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08754948549904895669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-45243965165606820542012-01-08T19:04:23.737-05:002012-01-08T19:04:23.737-05:00Thanks-
This post has been sitting in draft for a...Thanks-<br /><br />This post has been sitting in draft for a while. <br /><br />I've noticed there are not a lot of full treatments of Tetzel available. The most thorough treatment appears to be:<br /><br />Nikolaus Paulus, Johann Tetzel der Ablassprediger (Mainz: Kirchheim, 1899)<br /><br />http://books.google.com/books?id=FIVBAAAAYAAJ&dq=Nikolaus%20Paulus%2C%20Johann%20Tetzel%20der%20Ablassprediger%20(Mainz%3A%20Kirchheim%2C%201899)&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false<br /><br />I would think, if someone is looking to do a book on a Reformation topic, a new book on Tetzel seems to be a wide open field.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-6098210489823607392012-01-08T16:51:04.740-05:002012-01-08T16:51:04.740-05:00Outstanding! Thanks so much for this!Outstanding! Thanks so much for this!Tim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-88198729207438936492012-01-08T15:47:19.639-05:002012-01-08T15:47:19.639-05:00Very nice, James!Very nice, James!Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-35607674022165461232012-01-08T05:58:56.909-05:002012-01-08T05:58:56.909-05:00Way to go James,
Now you got me worried about &qu...Way to go James,<br /><br />Now you got me worried about "four sins" that I can't get indulgences for :)Ron Van Brenkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15623171051016737306noreply@blogger.com