tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post1192027689472023513..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: An Evangelical Introduction to Church History (Part 2)James Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52572007878425720132011-01-22T15:29:23.435-05:002011-01-22T15:29:23.435-05:00Thanks; i thought these two things were potentiall...Thanks; i thought these two things were potentially interesting. A bit off topic, but i came across a scathing review of the NAB Bible, http://www.pugiofidei.com/NAB.htm <br /><br />Akins says "there was a huge, behind-the-scenes fight at Vatican II about inerrancy" which led to the present wording of Dei Verbum being worked out, but the debate yet goes on as to whether supports the position that the Bible is only immune from error within a certain limited domain, versus what Pope Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus states. Of course, there is also disagreement as to whether all encyclicals are infallible, or how much therein is. <br /><br />BTW, ever hear this:<br /> "Holy Scripture is in such sort the rule of the Christian faith that we are obliged by every kind of obligation to believe most exactly all that it contains, and not to believe anything which may be ever so little contrary to it. St. Francis de Sales, The Catholic Controversy, trans. Henry Benedict Mackey, O.S.B. (Rockford, IL: TAN Books, 1989) p. 88.PeaceByJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08754948549904895669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-59079293329906872212011-01-21T04:29:20.549-05:002011-01-21T04:29:20.549-05:00PBJ, I'll try to re-send that. (I have multipl...PBJ, I'll try to re-send that. (I have multiple copies of it on my computer; maybe that was just a bad one. I'll check to make sure).<br /><br />As for the "Spirituali," they had varying degrees of success during the Reformation. Contarini was part of the group that wrote "The Concilium" document, which was highly critical of Roman practices; it's very hard to find a copy of this document, although Luther had published parts of it when it came out. Sadoleto appealed to Calvin; several of these indivduals negotiated with Calvin and Melanchthon at Regensberg. Pole was from England, and in spite of his affiliation with this group, he was a terror to Protestants in England. <br /><br />The roles that all of these individuals played, however, fed into the overall stream of things (these guys were the "losers" in Roman thought at the time of the Reformation -- and it was the hard-liners who won the day.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-34162192636630987702011-01-20T21:00:52.847-05:002011-01-20T21:00:52.847-05:00That said, what think ye of the Spirituali movem...That said, what think ye of the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituali" rel="nofollow">Spirituali movement </a> which i came across today?<br /><br />The ranks of the Spirituali included Cardinal Gasparo Contarini (1483-1542), Cardinal Jacopo Sadoleto (1477-1547), Cardinal Reginald Pole (1500-1558), Italian poet Vittoria Colonna, and her friend, the artist Michelangelo (1475-1564). These "Italian evangelicals" proposed to reform the corruption of the Church through a spiritual renewal and internalization of faith by each individual, viewing the intense study of scripture and justification by faith as means to that end, even though the Bible was prohibited to laymen.<br /><br />Also, the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituali" rel="nofollow">Congregatio de Auxiliis</a> <br /><br />a commission established by Pope Clement VIII to settle a theological controversy regarding divine grace that arose between the Dominicans and the Jesuits towards the close of the sixteenth century. ..<br /><br />The controversy is usually considered to have begun in the year 1581, when the Jesuit Prudencio de Montemayor defended certain theses on grace that had been vigorously attacked by the Dominican Domingo Bañez.<br /><br />Finally, after twenty years of discussion public and private, and eighty-five conferences in the presence of the popes, the question was not solved but an end was put to the disputes. The pope's decree communicated on 5 September 1607 to both Dominicans and Jesuits, allowed each party to defend its own doctrine, enjoined each from censoring or condemning the opposite opinion, and commanded them to await, as loyal sons of the Church, the final decision of the Apostolic See. That decision, however, has not been reached, and both orders, consequently, could maintain their respective theories, just as any other theological opinion is held.<br /><br />Sooo, we know the Infallible Magi do not claim to be able to solve all mysteries, but what does this tell you about the standard SS seems to be held to, and how does this relate to them?PeaceByJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08754948549904895669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-78469249769296288542011-01-20T20:44:40.172-05:002011-01-20T20:44:40.172-05:00Thank you both! God knows what we need, as i had a...Thank you both! God knows what we need, as i had actual emailed Jason a day previous asking where to get some of his old AOL and NTRMIN pages, as i come across links to them sometimes, and Internet Archive does not have much. <br /><br />The Rhoblogy page looks "wealthy," but John the zip you sent was empty, though it said 22kb. No filter on you or zips either. <br /><br />Did i tell you though that the Bible, otherwise known as Scriptureware is a zipped file? Yes, it uses Holy Spirit compression, 7.0, and you need the same to decompress the compressed truth therein. No viruses or malware either, though Serpentware has been known to hijack some of the code in seeking to make counterfeit corrupt copies of it, such as seen in Mormonware. <br /><br />But those who are licensed by the manufacturer located in Heaven, and their name being written therein, are given the ability to discern good from evil. <br /><br />A certain company located in Rome has been attempting for some time to claim an exclusive copyright to said Scriptureware, but the basis of their claim has been established as invalid, not only as regards the historical aspect but also due to engaging in such a deviation as to make any copyright claim void.PeaceByJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08754948549904895669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-60460477602616649862011-01-20T08:27:07.742-05:002011-01-20T08:27:07.742-05:00Alan, thanks for that link, and also the suggestio...Alan, thanks for that link, and also the suggestion to visit Turretinfan's blog.<br /><br />PBJ, I've also emailed Jason Engwer's "Catholic but Not Roman Catholic" to you. That's a rich source of patristic citations that contradict one Roman Catholic teaching or another.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52393692543648313792011-01-20T08:23:22.623-05:002011-01-20T08:23:22.623-05:00PeaceByJesus,
Start here for an analysis of a few...PeaceByJesus,<br /><br /><a href="http://rhoblogy.blogspot.com/2007/06/athanasius-chrysostom-and-modern-eoc.html" rel="nofollow">Start here for an analysis of a few examples (just substitute "EOC" for Rome and you're in good shape)</a> and what we do with such contradictions. And how RCs and EOx fail to deal with them properly.<br /><br />See the right sidebar of this very blog - under the heading LABELS.<br /><br />Also check out <a href="http://turretinfan.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">TurretinFan's blog</a> - surf around there.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1125746396748148602011-01-19T23:09:59.770-05:002011-01-19T23:09:59.770-05:00Just came across this, and did not know if you eve...Just came across this, and did not know if you ever heard it: <br /><br />In their censures of luxury the fathers were extremely minute and circumstantial; and among the various articles that excite their pious indignation we may enumerate false hair, garments of any colour except white, instruments of music, vases of gold or silver, downy pillows (as Jacob reposed his head on a stone), white bread, foreign wines, public salutations, the use of warm baths, and the practice of shaving the beard, which, according to Tertullian, is a lie against our own faces and an impious attempt to improve the works of the Creator. - Gibbon, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Penguin, p 286.<br /><br />The rhythm method of contraception was sanctioned by a Synod of Roman Catholic bishops in Rome in 1980 but had been condemned by St Augustine in De Moribus Manichæorum, 18. 65.<br /><br />Where is a list of how the church fathers contradicted each other and Rome as it now is? ThanksPeaceByJesushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08754948549904895669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-56800237557330156582010-12-22T19:17:46.291-05:002010-12-22T19:17:46.291-05:00Thanks for all your positive comments!
Sorry I di...Thanks for all your positive comments!<br /><br />Sorry I did not have time to comment in between.<br /><br />Lvka's is the only one that appears to disagree.<br /><br />I hope everyone has a blessed and joyous and meaningful celebration of the Incarnation of Jesus Christ; especially at this time of the year! <br /><br />Merry Christmas!Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-61346202371946250202010-12-19T02:28:48.195-05:002010-12-19T02:28:48.195-05:00The true catholic church are the true believers, t...<i>The true catholic church are the true believers, the elect of God from all nations, spreading all over the world.</i><br />Ken, I just wrote a similar statement in a new post, which is about divisions within the Catholic Church and in protestantism: "An obstacle I encounter in fellowship with individual Catholics is that they have so completely accepted the idea that the RCC is the one true infallible church that they can't go very far in a reciprocal relationship where we can learn from each other, because they don't believe the Spirit and the Word speak directly to believers outside the magisterium, so that believers can exhort one another; nor can they believe that the true church is not the RCC, but consists of a remnant all over the world inside and outside of the many church organizations." <br />I appreciate your post and these two quotes of yours I just pulled out.Jenniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17126868703568627388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-54764750429631163582010-12-19T02:07:31.244-05:002010-12-19T02:07:31.244-05:00Very informative post; I'm still working on re...Very informative post; I'm still working on reading it. <br /><i>When we read the Scriptures on this issue and indeed, take up the letter of I Corinthians, we find the solution to the problem there. Paul wrote in I Corinthians 4:6, in the same context of the divisions and disunity and factions (1:10-11; 3:1-10; 4:1-6), “Do not go beyond what is written.” Paul gives them the Scriptural solution and Clement points them back to the bible.</i><br /><br />I love that statement of Paul's "Do not go beyond what is written." I believe that adhering to this command would have prevented all the divisions that spurred the Reformers on, and it would also have prevented many divisions between protestants too; and can prevent and heal many differences today, as long as we do adhere to 'what is written' (commands of Christ as well as 'doctrines'), and ALL that is written in Scripture, and nothing else in opposition to it.Jenniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17126868703568627388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1115186257515878112010-12-17T16:41:54.436-05:002010-12-17T16:41:54.436-05:00Getting articles like this series into the right m...Getting articles like this series into the right minds will change the course of history and might just hasten the coming of the Lord back to claim victory in a final sense, delivering us from this world devils filled:<br /><br /><b><i>" ... 2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!"</i></b>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-38536145651958903272010-12-17T16:35:48.186-05:002010-12-17T16:35:48.186-05:00I chuckled when reading this:
We're here to s...I chuckled when reading this:<br /><br /><i>We're here to serve the Romanists. As far as I can tell, many of them rely on us to look stuff up for them.</i><br /><br />It kinda slaps down the RCC dogma and understanding of justification by works!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-16843544069392406762010-12-17T13:39:40.726-05:002010-12-17T13:39:40.726-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-67876384039498501602010-12-17T13:39:31.996-05:002010-12-17T13:39:31.996-05:00Why would a link to SOME early Christendom writers...Why would a link to SOME early Christendom writers talking about borderline monophysitism bother us Reformedigelicals, Lvka? Please break that down for us, and be specific.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-44751282237631263152010-12-17T08:36:15.840-05:002010-12-17T08:36:15.840-05:00Lvka,
That is certainly "no problem." Z...Lvka,<br /><br />That is certainly "no problem." Zwingli did err on this, but the mainstream of Protestantism has not abandoned the scriptural doctrine of the Real Presence, only the human philosophy of "transubstantiation" and Roman over-dogmatizing. We believe Christ when he says "This is my body" and "this is my blood."steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-73908108636439714352010-12-17T08:20:15.219-05:002010-12-17T08:20:15.219-05:00Not just Rome. The Christian birthdate is very low...Not just Rome. The Christian birthdate is very low in most of Europe (though Italy has one of the lowest birthrates) and Islam is becoming increasingly aggressive in it's demands as it's percentage of the population rises.steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-2950445403017663372010-12-17T03:43:40.642-05:002010-12-17T03:43:40.642-05:00"If to be deep in history does not mean to ce..."If to be deep in history does not mean to cease being Protestant, then you should have no problem with reading this article, right?"<br /><br />I know you EOs don't like Augustine very much, but he provides us a good example of how in spite of all their talk about "real presence" (which even good Protestants could subscribe to!) church fathers did not understand this concept in a woodenly literalist, idolatrous manner:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/12023.htm</a><br /><br />"Chapter 16.— Rule for Interpreting Commands and Prohibitions.<br /><br />24. If the sentence is one of command, either forbidding a crime or vice, or enjoining an act of prudence or benevolence, it is not figurative. If, however, it seems to enjoin a crime or vice, or to forbid an act of prudence or benevolence, it is figurative. <br /><br />”Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man,” says Christ, ”and drink His blood, you have no life in you.” John 6:53 <br /><br />This seems to enjoin a crime or a vice; it is therefore a figure, enjoining that we should have a share [communicandem] in the sufferings of our Lord, and that we should retain a sweet and profitable memory [in memoria] of the fact that His flesh was wounded and crucified for us."Viisaushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02682159289133730565noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-20309708237352503702010-12-16T21:50:57.009-05:002010-12-16T21:50:57.009-05:00If to be deep in history does not mean to cease be...If to be deep in history does not mean to cease being Protestant, then you should have no problem with reading this <a href="http://orthodox-apologetics.blogspot.com/2009/11/fathers-on-real-presence-of-christ-in.html" rel="nofollow">article</a>, right?The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09663692507774640889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-26359413052307406252010-12-16T18:00:19.770-05:002010-12-16T18:00:19.770-05:00All done reading it. Excellent.
Thank you for the...All done reading it. Excellent.<br /><br />Thank you for the work that went into it. I know firsthand how true your statement about time-consuming is.Paul Pavaohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03135622914331255065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-8870840025840312002010-12-16T14:49:44.824-05:002010-12-16T14:49:44.824-05:00You are a lot of fun, Ken. I'm sure this comme...You are a lot of fun, Ken. I'm sure this comment section will be hopping.<br /><br />I still have to read the whole thing this afternoon, but I wanted to tell you you're a delight.Paul Pavaohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03135622914331255065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52349487703271382010-12-15T22:07:21.559-05:002010-12-15T22:07:21.559-05:00"No, friends, the early church was not Roman ...<i>"No, friends, the early church was not Roman Catholic. It was catholic; and we can “let the early church be the early church” without trying to make it identical with 16 Century Protestantism. To be deep in history is to see and expose Newman’s saying as flawed and not fall for the deception of anachronistically reading church history"</i><br /><br />Thanks Ken. Posts like these are why Beggars All is such a gift to Christendom.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-62595664939459014532010-12-15T21:42:09.724-05:002010-12-15T21:42:09.724-05:00"...an extraordinary warning for Rome today.&...<i>"...an extraordinary warning for Rome today."</i><br /><br />And not just Rome either.EAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03649331234241764065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-3806788149594568722010-12-15T21:20:27.369-05:002010-12-15T21:20:27.369-05:00although some of the I Clement and Ignatius resear...<i>although some of the I Clement and Ignatius research and typing out the quotes and references are quite time consuming</i><br /><br />We're here to serve the Romanists. As far as I can tell, many of them rely on us to look stuff up for them.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-7931332446193537722010-12-15T21:03:51.674-05:002010-12-15T21:03:51.674-05:00Making progress on a Christmas family photo and Ch...Making progress on a Christmas family photo and Christmas cards; so,<br /><br />I finally took the time to crank out "part 2" !<br /><br />I appreciate your encouragement and spurring me on to actually write all of this out, although some of the I Clement and Ignatius research and typing out the quotes and references are quite time consuming.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17824685809003307918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-33241972416087677862010-12-15T20:55:02.122-05:002010-12-15T20:55:02.122-05:00Ken, this is exceptional. Your overview of those c...Ken, this is exceptional. Your overview of those churches in modern day Turkey, "churches removed," is sobering, and an extraordinary warning for Rome today.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.com