tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post8949604160230696326..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Luther: "It cannot be proved by the scriptures, that infant baptism was instituted by Christ, or begun by the first Christians after the apostles"James Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-74160342483335044432019-11-30T21:13:10.179-05:002019-11-30T21:13:10.179-05:00Question: couldn't Luther's line of reason...Question: couldn't Luther's line of reasoning here be easily used to establish lots of practices the Reformation opposed?<br /><br />For example: "Were veneration of saints now wrong God would certainly not have permitted it to continue so long, nor let it become so universally and thoroughly established in all Christendom, but it would sometime have gone down in disgrace. The fact that the Lutherans now dishonor it does not mean anything final or injurious to it."<br /><br />Or: "Were the perpetual virginity of Mary now wrong God would certainly not have permitted it to continue so long, nor let it become so universally and thoroughly established in all Christendom, but it would sometime have gone down in disgrace. The fact that the Lutherans now dishonor it does not mean anything final or injurious to it."<br /><br />This seems to have the same explosive kind of potential as Fr. James Martin's recent statement about the Bible on Twitter: https://twitter.com/JamesMartinSJ/status/1187090285332967424?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1187090285332967424&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.lifesitenews.com%2Fnews%2Fbishops-call-out-fr-james-martin-for-questioning-if-bible-is-right-to-condemn-homosexualityGeoffreyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15357651728684760944noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-35591251899898649382019-01-25T14:21:37.879-05:002019-01-25T14:21:37.879-05:00Thanks JB & Tony!Thanks JB & Tony!James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-75268659536926291812019-01-25T09:39:58.894-05:002019-01-25T09:39:58.894-05:00JB,
You may want to cite it this way, if you are ...JB,<br /><br />You may want to cite it this way, if you are putting it into a footnote:<br /><br />James Swan, “Luther: ‘It cannot be proved by the scriptures, that infant baptism was instituted by Christ, or begun by the first Christians after the apostles,’” <i>Beggars All Reformation & Apologetics: Setting the Record Straight on the Protestant Reformation</i> (blog), October 10, 2013, https://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2013/10/luther-t-cannot-be-proved-by-scriptures.html.Tony Byrnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02102293843397809802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-5839168839385216412019-01-24T14:10:38.990-05:002019-01-24T14:10:38.990-05:00I am editing the footnotes for a public-domain boo...I am editing the footnotes for a public-domain book soon to be republished that references this "quote" from Martin Luther. This blog post has been incredibly helpful, and since my summary (which boils down to, "this is a dubious quotation, maybe you should find a better one") is simply a reduction of it, you deserve an approbation. I'm proposing the following, let me know if it's OK or if you'd prefer something else:<br /><br />See James Swan, “Luther: ‘It cannot be proved by the scriptures, that infant baptism was instituted by Christ, or begun by the first Christians after the apostles’” (10 Oct. 2013, Beggars All Reformation & Apologetics, blogspot.com).JBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-48914463809084533912013-11-16T11:21:40.487-05:002013-11-16T11:21:40.487-05:00Tony,
Well done, excellent work. It appears to me...Tony,<br /><br />Well done, excellent work. It appears to me that the author summarized Luther rather than directly quote Luther. The "one thousand years" is from LW 40:256. I'm not sure yet where the Pope Innocent reference comes from.James Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-9191468708361170402013-11-15T16:27:40.367-05:002013-11-15T16:27:40.367-05:00Here is the exact quote as it appears in Ritor:
&...Here is the exact quote as it appears in Ritor:<br /><br />"Concerning the time when Infants Baptisme was first invented, <i>Luther</i> in his Booke of <i>Anabaptisme</i> acknowledgeth, that <i>it cannot be proved, by Sacred Scripture, that childrens Baptisme was instituted by Christ, or begun by the first Christians after the Apostles, for one thousand yeares since it came to be in use in the church, and was established by Pope Innocentius</i>."<br /><br />A. R. [Andrew Ritor], <i>The Second Part of the Vanity & Childishness of Infants Baptisme</i> (London, 1642), 8.Tony Byrnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02102293843397809802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-13021944060371582752013-10-23T13:45:02.488-04:002013-10-23T13:45:02.488-04:00Neither can it be proved by the scriptures that it...Neither can it be proved by the scriptures that it should be withheld.<br /><br />I believe R.C. Sproul, Sr and John McArthur has a debate on this. And it was inconclusive to either side.<br /><br />It becomes then a matter of interpretation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-56494594989824235492013-10-21T16:55:17.455-04:002013-10-21T16:55:17.455-04:00Tony: thanks so much for the extra information, I&...Tony: thanks so much for the extra information, I'm going to add it above.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br /> JamesJames Swanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-195186980340306902013-10-20T21:50:33.810-04:002013-10-20T21:50:33.810-04:00It appears that you are referencing "The seco...It appears that you are referencing "The second part of the vanity & childishnes of infants baptisme wherein the grounds from severall Scriptures usually brought for to justifie the same, are urged and answered. As also the nature of the divers covenants made with Abraham and his seed, briefly opened and applied." by Andrew Ritor [A.R.]. It seems that <a href="http://www.worldcat.org/title/second-part-of-the-vanity-childishnes-of-infants-baptisme-wherein-the-grounds-from-severall-scriptures-usually-brought-for-to-justifie-the-same-are-urged-and-answered-as-also-the-nature-of-the-divers-covenants-made-with-abraham-and-his-seed-briefly-opened-and-applied-ar-may-3-1642/oclc/606699906&referer=brief_results" rel="nofollow">this work is available on EEBO (Early English Books Online) according to WorldCat</a>. The first part of Ritor's work (which has nothing about Luther in it) can be obtained <a href="http://www.baptistcenter.com/Historical_documents/A-Treatise-of-the-Vanity-of-Childish-Baptisme-1642.html" rel="nofollow">online here (click)</a>, but I don't think the second part is available online, yet. If I eventually obtain the second part, I'll check page 8 and elsewhere for the Luther reference.Tony Byrnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02102293843397809802noreply@blogger.com