tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post8108162622548537145..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: "Bride of Christ" takes on a whole new meaningJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85351704282779921592009-09-05T14:49:25.837-04:002009-09-05T14:49:25.837-04:00In fact, Dozie, you elsewhere argue that posting h...In fact, Dozie, you elsewhere argue that posting here lends James credibility & plead w/your compatriots to not do so. In fact, when told to take your own advice, you agreed. Yet you continue...GeneMBridgeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10504383610477532374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-63629830640623239592009-09-04T23:54:56.709-04:002009-09-04T23:54:56.709-04:00I comment here to point out the futiliy of engagin...<i>I comment here to point out the futiliy of engaging Protestants</i><br /><br />You keep using that word futile. Since you continue to come here and comment, I don't think it means what you think it means.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-48894017033040743362009-09-04T23:52:59.966-04:002009-09-04T23:52:59.966-04:00"And furthermore, you take it as a dogmatic s..."And furthermore, you take it as a dogmatic sign from the Pope that Protestants are not even to be engaged with in conversation/discussion of spiritual matters?"<br /><br />See an earlier post I made:<br /><br /><br />“Benedict XVI's closest collaborator is denying media rumors that the Pontiff is working to gradually "undo" the changes implemented after the Second Vatican Council.”<br /><br />Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone “highlighted some applications of the Second Vatican Council that the Pope has "promoted constantly with intelligence and depth of thought."”<br /><br />“In particular, he noted the Pontiff's collaboration in "the most comprehensive relationship" with the Orthodox and Eastern Churches and the dialogue with Judaism and Islam.” http://www.zenit.org/article-26707?l=english (August 28, 2009)<br /><br />With “intelligence and depth of thought”: It seems the Pope did not, after all, forget about Protestants; he must have considered them with same intelligence and depth of thought and decided not to waste his time.<br /><br />2:09 AM, August 29, 2009Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39070635154426515472009-09-04T23:47:26.601-04:002009-09-04T23:47:26.601-04:00"I take it, then, that you plan on not commen..."I take it, then, that you plan on not commenting in this combox anymore."<br /><br />I comment here to point out the futiliy of engaging Protestants; the pope has not done it, does not do it; why should Catholics be wasting their time talking to people who seem to be blinded by their own errors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-32649051944072369892009-09-04T23:28:51.875-04:002009-09-04T23:28:51.875-04:00Dozie,
So let me see if I understand you.
In a s...Dozie,<br /><br />So let me see if I understand you.<br /><br />In a symposium specifically designed to discuss fraternal relations between Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, you take it that a lack of mention of Protestants by the Pope means that we are "on the outs" with true Christianity?<br /><br />Interesting reasoning. To someone.<br /><br />And furthermore, you take it as a dogmatic sign from the Pope that Protestants are not even to be engaged with in conversation/discussion of spiritual matters?<br /><br />I see.<br /><br />I take it, then, that you plan on not commenting in this combox anymore.<br /><br />The Lord is good.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-44399101177995924522009-09-04T22:34:12.979-04:002009-09-04T22:34:12.979-04:00I thought Protestants think of themselves as Chris...I thought Protestants think of themselves as Christians; read the piece below and see if that is remotely indicated (Catholics must, repeat, must follow the pope as they encounter and engage Protestants):<br /><br />Pope's Message to Inter-Christian Symposium<br /><br /><br />"Build Together the City of God"<br /><br />CASTEL GANDOLFO, Italy, SEPT. 3, 2009 (Zenit.org).- Here is a translation of the message Benedict XVI sent to Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, on the occasion of the 11th Inter-Christian Symposium, which began today in Rome.<br /> <br />* * *<br /> <br />Through you, venerable brother, in your capacity as president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, I have the pleasure and joy of sending a warm and auspicious greeting to the organizers and participants of the 11th Inter-Christian Symposium, promoted by the Franciscan Institute of Spirituality of the Pontifical University Antonianum and by the Aristotle Orthodox Theological Faculty of Thessalonica, planned in Rome from Sept. 3-5.<br /> <br />I am happy first of all for this initiative of fraternal encounter and exchange on the common aspects of spirituality, which is beneficial for a closer relationship between Catholics and Orthodox. In fact, these Symposiums, which began in 1992, address important and constructive topics for reciprocal understanding and unity of intention. The fact that it takes place alternatively in a territory of Catholic or Orthodox majority also allows for real contact with the concrete, historical, cultural and religious life of our Churches.<br /> <br />In particular, this year you wished to organize the Symposium in Rome, city that offers all Christians indelible testimonies of history, archaeology, iconography, hagiography and spirituality, strong stimulus to advance toward full communion and above all, the memory of the Apostles Peter and Paul, Protothroni, and of so many martyrs, ancient witnesses of the faith. Of them, St. Clement of Rome wrote that "suffering ... many insults and torments, they became a most beautiful example for us" (Cf. Letter to the Corinthians, VI,1).<br /> <br />The topic chosen for the next meeting: "St. Augustine in the Western and Eastern Tradition" -- argument intended to be developed in collaboration with the Patristic Institute Augustinanum -- is most interesting to reflect further on Christian theology and spirituality in the West and in the East, and its development. The Saint of Hippo, a great Father of the Latin Church, is, in fact, of fundamental importance for theology and for the West's very culture, whereas the reception of his thought in Orthodox theology has revealed itself to be rather problematic.<br /><br />Hence, to know with historical objectivity and fraternal cordiality the doctrinal and spiritual riches that make up the patrimony of the Christian East and West, is indispensable not only to appreciate them, but also to promote better reciprocal appreciation among all Christians.<br /> <br />Therefore, I express cordial wishes that your Symposium is fruitful in that it discovers doctrinal and spiritual convergences that are useful to build together the City of God, where his children can live in peace and in fraternal charity, based on the truth of the common faith. I assure you of my prayer for this end, asking the Lord to bless the organizers and the institutions they represent, the Catholic and Orthodox speakers and all the participants.<br /> <br />May the Grace and peace of the Lord be in your collaborators and in your minds!<br /> <br />In Castel Gandolfo, August 28, 2009<br /> <br />BENEDICTUS PP. XVIAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-38510979967157362752009-09-04T15:13:46.298-04:002009-09-04T15:13:46.298-04:00I see from the incoming links on my blog that DA i...I see from the incoming links on my blog that DA is upset about my comment above. <br /><br />Watch closely how he attempts to get around the responsibility argument. This is a serious sore point for him. He has never grasped it from the moment I first started putting forth the argument that as a matter of Medieval catholic theology the pope was required to be accountable both to the temporal power and to the rest of the Church, particularly when the Church, supported by the temporal power acting as the <i>defensor ecclesiae</i> met in a General Council. But even beyond DA's intellectually insulated little world, the responsibility argument is a key point against the papacy. For the papacy, as it has historically developed (even granting for argument's sake Newman's way of unfolding development) is an absolute kingship, or, to use the better and more accurate word, a <i>tyranny</i>. As such, it is fundamentally an irresponsible entity concerned primarily with the maintenance of its own power and prerogatives and not with what is good for the whole <i>corpus Christianorum</i>. Believing itself accountable to God alone - and that usually in the next life, not this life - the papacy (and all who defend its immoderate and intemperate authority claims) cannot join its claim to universal authority with either (1) basic biblical pastoral responsibility or with (2) basic Western political philosophy's insistence that human rulers must always be accountable to other humans.<br /><br />I have discovered these past few years that this is one of the best ways, other than the usual biblical-exegetical and patristic ones, to challenge the papacy and its defenders. They can't handle the argument, because tyrants never can. That's why tyrants have never lasted; someone has always arisen to kick them out in the name of the justice that they so drastically pervert. "Tim Enloe, Nasty Quasi-Anti-Catholic Reformed Polemicist" my foot. This is basic Western political philosophy. The apologists can't deal with it because they don't know it. More's the pity for them.Tim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-8207908278936364802009-09-04T15:12:04.135-04:002009-09-04T15:12:04.135-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-80805701526599444892009-09-04T14:17:27.023-04:002009-09-04T14:17:27.023-04:00Incidentally, I am glad you made the retraction yo...Incidentally, I am glad you made the retraction you did. For a variety of reasons, it is quite difficult to compare the rates of abuse or to do so in ways that make sense.Turretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-29689112452365503792009-09-04T14:15:07.610-04:002009-09-04T14:15:07.610-04:00PilgrimsArbour:
To be clear, I wasn't trying ...PilgrimsArbour:<br /><br />To be clear, I wasn't trying to create a duty on you to actually factcheck everything you read. That would be absurd. <br /><br />I was simply pointing out that the dishonest Romanists who initially presented the report were counting on the idea that typical readers would not go to the trouble of doing such a check.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-40879354531437591252009-09-04T13:12:53.126-04:002009-09-04T13:12:53.126-04:00I guess they figured that folks wouldn't read ...<i>I guess they figured that folks wouldn't read the sources they listed in their footnotes. I'm guessing that you didn't, PilgrimsArbour, am I correct?</i><br /><br />Yes, that's correct. There are quite a few resources online and elsewhere than can be checked, if one has the time. My immediate concern was not to further advance a false (at least potentially) assertion that RCC priests abuse cases are much more numerous than Protestant cases. Since I knew I would not be able to spend the time on this issue that is really required to sort it all out, I thought it best to retract that assertion for now.<br /><br />Besides, fact-checking complex minutiae is your forte, Turretinfan, am I right? ;-)<br /><br />At this point I will defer to all those here who are much smarter than I, until I can gather the time to sort it all out.<br /><br />Of course, "until" here means...;-)Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-74242655024247112282009-09-04T12:54:56.898-04:002009-09-04T12:54:56.898-04:00(Peeking in for a minute)
Isn't the point he...(Peeking in for a minute) <br /><br />Isn't the point here that supposedly the Catholic Church has been this great bastion of Christian morality in an increasingly relativistic world, supposedly shining the light of ethical truth better and with more "fullness" than all her "separated brethren," and yet, lo and behold, she doesn't even have her own moral house clean? <br /><br />Another point might be that for an institution that trumpets the value of its very rigid authority structure, the guy at the top, with whom the buck finally stops (since he's the successor of Peter and the Vicar of Christ and the Universal Pastor and all that jazz), doesn't have enough presence of mind or ability to actually enforce Christian morality on his subordinate pastors?<br /><br />In other words, given the usually very ramped-up rhetoric of the Catholic Church (or at least, of many of its defenders) about its moral superiority, isn't the point here have something to do with motes and planks in eyes?Tim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-23483757535609975592009-09-04T11:26:53.677-04:002009-09-04T11:26:53.677-04:00Honest question here: Has the RCC ever officially...Honest question here: Has the RCC ever officially acknowledged and apologized for the role of its Bishops and leadership in those abuse cases?louishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05447894010657835114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-82276289341198271112009-09-04T11:23:35.082-04:002009-09-04T11:23:35.082-04:00“The whole are complicit as they haven't punis...“The whole are complicit as they haven't punished those responsible for the evil acts and those responsible for hiding the evildoers.”<br /><br />This comment once again proves that your assumptions regarding the hierarchy are simply misinformed. Under Canon Law does the Bishop of the Diocese of Charlotte have control over the Bishop of the Diocese of Venice? No, he does not. Are they both part of the hierarchy? Yes, they are. Has the hierarchy existed prior to those who were present during the recent abuses? Yes. Are they likewise complicit? <br /><br />“Think, man. Every comment reveals you more and more as an unthinking Romautomaton.”<br /><br />This comment does not register in my data frame…a restart might be necessary…system is shutting down.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353069946995823072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-59470022435713583992009-09-04T11:09:12.513-04:002009-09-04T11:09:12.513-04:00The whole are complicit as they haven't punish...The whole are complicit as they haven't punished those responsible for the evil acts and those responsible for hiding the evildoers.<br />Think, man. Every comment reveals you more and more as an unthinking Romautomaton.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-9212732904413765242009-09-04T11:06:02.520-04:002009-09-04T11:06:02.520-04:00“I'd believe your hierarchy actually believed ...“I'd believe your hierarchy actually believed what you say it teaches if it actually took action to punish the evildoers rather than consistently hiding and moving them.”<br /><br />Besides, you are making an overgeneralization here. You assume that those complicit in the evil actions are representative of the whole. This is not a good idea to assume.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353069946995823072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-67502900856279671322009-09-04T11:01:29.595-04:002009-09-04T11:01:29.595-04:00“I'd believe your hierarchy actually believed ...“I'd believe your hierarchy actually believed what you say it teaches if it actually took action to punish the evildoers rather than consistently hiding and moving them.”<br /><br />This has a problem of relevance towards the discussion at hand. So there are evil men who have sinned against their obligation to profess, believe, and live the truth…moreover as pastors of the Church their sins are heightened. But how does this meaningfully add to the discussion? It doesn’t. You’re grasping at straws. Because some people have distorted attitudes and actions against the professed beliefs of the Church are relevant towards those folks alone, not the professed beliefs of the Church.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353069946995823072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-45389122393730982522009-09-04T10:53:15.743-04:002009-09-04T10:53:15.743-04:00Pilgrim,
I'd also like to add that I apprecia...Pilgrim,<br /><br />I'd also like to add that I appreciate the approach you've taken in this discussion. <br /><br />My comment to you as far as an answer goes I realize was not what you were looking for, and I didn't mean it as an apologetic, it was just a personal thought.<br /><br />To be honest with you, I accept the doctrine mostly because the Church believes and teaches it. I do believe though that your questions can be answered (although I don't have them) by someone more familiar with the subject than myself.Richard Froggatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12931363750222373223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-50726730437773314992009-09-04T10:51:52.825-04:002009-09-04T10:51:52.825-04:00You're making very little relevant sense.
Yes,...You're making very little relevant sense.<br />Yes, RCC teaches pedophilia is bad. DUH.<br /><br />What does the hierarchy <b>****DO****</b>? That's the question I've been raising. Your continued punting to "yeah, but we TEACH that's wrong!" is immaterial. I'd believe your hierarchy actually believed what you say it teaches if it actually took action to punish the evildoers rather than consistently hiding and moving them.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-68508120989201329482009-09-04T10:49:36.887-04:002009-09-04T10:49:36.887-04:00Well then you are much worse off in your knowledge...Well then you are much worse off in your knowledge of Roman Catholic teaching on free will, infallibility, and the fact that the Church doesn’t teach that as members the body (hierarchy as well) are necessarily sinless. Or you don’t know that the Church thoroughly teaches against pedophilia and all other sexually deviant acts.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353069946995823072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-44526530087723488542009-09-04T10:42:43.520-04:002009-09-04T10:42:43.520-04:00The "this is obviously correct" was in r...The "this is obviously correct" was in reference to the fact that blind slaves of Rome have artifically and ad-hoc-ly limited themselves to "it only matters what RCC teaches, not what RCC does". <br />I worded it badly, sorry.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-43104823558607845402009-09-04T10:34:42.931-04:002009-09-04T10:34:42.931-04:00“Not members. PRIESTS. Keep dancing.”
I said ‘mem...“Not members. PRIESTS. Keep dancing.”<br /><br />I said ‘members’ because (A) priests are members too, (B) ‘members’ includes all those complicit within the hierarchy, and (C) I doubt that only the hierarchy were complicit alone. I said ‘members’ out of convenience of time, rather than going about listing ever possible ‘rank’ of individual involved. But if you want to use this as a “gotcha,” then I won’t take that from you. I’ll grant it to you and say: Oh boy, Rhology, you sure did get me on that one! <br /><br />“To the blind slave of Rome, this is obviously correct. But for the rest of us, who think that conduct ALSO matters, especially in the purportedly infallible and established-by-Christ leadership, it has plenty of merit. It's so ironic that Romanists like to argue that salvation is by grace AND works, and then when it comes to questions like this, alluvasudden works don't matter.<br /><br />“And yet they are still there, in the hierarchy. What does that say about your church? Where's the Holy Spirit guidance?”<br /><br />Me from before: Unless you can point to a doctrine itself that allows for pedophilia, or one that says that all members of the Church of necessity will adhere to everything the Church teaches, without exception, once again your argument has no merit.<br /><br />Me again: “that all members of the Church of necessity will adhere to everything the Church teaches, without exception”<br /><br />Rhology A: “…this is obviously correct.”<br /><br />Rhology B: “But for the rest of us, who think that conduct ALSO matters, especially in the purportedly infallible and established-by-Christ leadership, it has plenty of merit.”<br /><br />[How do I go about explaining the inconsistency between Rhology A and Rhology B…On the one hand this guy admits that he understands and agrees that the Church cannot engage in mind control. Furthermore he admits and agrees that the Church doctrinally teaches against pedophilia. Yet on the other hand he seems to think that in practice members of the Church can not possibly sin against her teachings because her teachings are proclaimed to be infallible, and when taught those doing the teaching are doing so infallibly…Oh well, some just don’t get it]<br /><br />My reply: Oh boy, you got me there again Rhology!Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353069946995823072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39451275589257090412009-09-04T09:54:38.816-04:002009-09-04T09:54:38.816-04:00minds, hearts and attitudes of all of her members....<i>minds, hearts and attitudes of all of her members. </i> <br /><br />Not members. PRIESTS. Keep dancing.<br /><br /><br /><i>Unless you can point to a doctrine itself that allows for pedophilia, or one that says that all members of the Church of necessity will adhere to everything the Church teaches, without exeption, once again your argument has no merit.</i> <br /><br />To the blind slave of Rome, this is obviously correct. But for the rest of us, who think that conduct ALSO matters, especially in the purportedly infallible and established-by-Christ leadership, it has plenty of merit. It's so ironic that Romanists like to argue that salvation is by grace AND works, and then when it comes to questions like this, alluvasudden works don't matter. <br /><br /><br /><i>Also, you are absolutely correct in this statement. There is zero excuse for those in the hierarchy to hide and protect sex offenders, especially the “we’re not as bad” excuse. </i> <br /><br />And yet they are still there, in the hierarchy. What does that say about your church? Where's the Holy Spirit guidance?Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-66143990743554828172009-09-04T09:47:29.633-04:002009-09-04T09:47:29.633-04:00"Even if it were true that RC pedophile pries..."Even if it were true that RC pedophile priests are less numerous per capita than in Prot churches, that gives the RC hierarchy who has hidden and protected the offenders even less excuse to have done what they've done, since they can't plead hardship or high numbers."<br /><br />Also, you are absolutely correct in this statement. There is zero excuse for those in the hierarchy to hide and protect sex offenders, especially the “we’re not as bad” excuse.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353069946995823072noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-24973166557145324552009-09-04T09:43:17.311-04:002009-09-04T09:43:17.311-04:00"Even if it were true that RC pedophile pries..."Even if it were true that RC pedophile priests are less numerous per capita than in Prot churches, that gives the RC hierarchy who has hidden and protected the offenders even less excuse to have done what they've done, since they can't plead hardship or high numbers."<br /><br />But none of this matters given the fact that the Church never contends that it controls the minds, hearts and attitudes of all of her members. Unless you can point to a doctrine itself that allows for pedophilia, or one that says that all members of the Church of necessity will adhere to everything the Church teaches, without exeption, once again your argument has no merit.<br /><br />As far as the actual statistics go, anyone who has studied statistics should know that prior to dismissing them they should first see how they were drawn. We need to see what the statistics are actually in relation to. What was the design? What variables were used? How was the data generated? Were they generating data from raw information, or were they using existent information and is it comparable? If the data is problematic, then the analysis could be flawed as Turretinfan rightly pointed out. <br /><br />I think that Pilgrimsarbour has the best approach, and that is that this is inconclusive. <br /><br />However, we go back to the fundamental problem in that even if Catholic priests had a higher percentage of abuse cases comparably to Protestant ministers, this still does not add any value to the conclusion some of you are trying to draw.Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08353069946995823072noreply@blogger.com