tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post8074619608781367908..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: PresuppositionsJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1750962497525943662011-04-02T18:09:03.177-04:002011-04-02T18:09:03.177-04:00Raymond -- let me ask that in a different way. If ...Raymond -- let me ask that in a different way. If you'd care to comment here in the future, then identify yourself for us in a way that demonstrates you're not Sean Patrick under a pseudonym.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-36241535928882754762011-04-02T17:53:52.979-04:002011-04-02T17:53:52.979-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06341480161054661420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-89048917702103799572011-04-02T17:45:46.704-04:002011-04-02T17:45:46.704-04:00Raymond,
Are you Sean Patrick?
You're the sa...Raymond,<br /><br />Are you Sean Patrick?<br /><br />You're the same personality that appeared over at Triablogue after Sean Patrick (using three different user names) was banned from there, acting in similar ways, using similar arguments and using similar language.<br /><br />Either way, if anyone wants to see the lack of value in reading or engaging Raymond, see his conduct in the comments section of <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/04/uncg-outreach-report-4-14-2010.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> thread, or <a href="http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2010/07/early-christian-opposition-to-baptismal.html" rel="nofollow">this one</a>.Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12784922935749497931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-57454925845738685582011-04-02T13:21:51.509-04:002011-04-02T13:21:51.509-04:00Green's objection is based on something to the...<i>Green's objection is based on something to the effect that "the evidence is pretty thin back then." (I checked Green some time ago, and that was the gist of it). And so certainly he is, as a Roman Catholic, "less inclined" to see that multiplicity.</i><br /><br />That is a quaint dismissal of his work, John. I wish I thought of that.<br /><br />We could say that Lampe's thesis of fractionation is based on something of the effect of 'the evidence of a monoespicopate is thin back then so there must have been fractions.' And so certain he is, as a Lutheran, 'less inclined' to see the monoepiscopate.Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06341480161054661420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-30871418295106361462011-04-02T12:50:25.855-04:002011-04-02T12:50:25.855-04:00You said, "The case that Rome had no single e...You said, "The case that Rome had no single episcopal figure for a very long time is a broad and compelling one."<br /><br />Then I wonder why you offered no such evidence in <a href="http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2010/09/modern-scholarship-rome-and-a-challenge/" rel="nofollow">this conversation</a>?Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06341480161054661420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-73856784470121414832011-04-02T12:08:46.307-04:002011-04-02T12:08:46.307-04:00Raymond -- Green's objection is based on somet...Raymond -- Green's objection is based on something to the effect that "the evidence is pretty thin back then." (I checked Green some time ago, and that was the gist of it). And so certainly he is, as a Roman Catholic, "less inclined" to see that multiplicity.<br /><br />But when you talk about evidence, all of the evidence that we do have points to that very scenario. Lampe is just one writer; there is an incredibly broad consensus on how authority developed in the early church.<br /><br />And the reason for this is because there are big stakes. There is a nagging sense that the Reformation solved nothing.<br /><br />But the Reformers did a fantastic thing, when you consider the world they lived in the kind of access they had to historical knowledge back then.<br /><br />Don't make light of evidence. If you find a murder weapon with fingerprints on it, and a dead body with a slug in it, you can match the slug to the weapon and a jury will convict someone for murder.<br /><br />With DNA evidence, we can know beyond a shadow of a doubt who raped Jane Doe.<br /><br />The case that Rome had no single episcopal figure for a very long time is a broad and compelling one.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-53587037916414510992011-04-02T11:00:25.537-04:002011-04-02T11:00:25.537-04:00How about Bernard Green: Christianity in Ancient R...How about Bernard Green: Christianity in Ancient Rome in the First Three Centuries - Oxford Press 2010?<br /><br />"It might be noted that although Green readily acknowledges doctrinal diversity, <b>he is less inclined</b> than some recent scholars to see “fractionated” multiplicity as a defining feature of the city’s Christian social landscape2 or to postpone the emergence of a fully fledged Roman episcopate until as late as the 230s and 240s (98)."<br /><br /><a href="http://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2010/2010-09-36.html" rel="nofollow">Review here</a>.Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06341480161054661420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-18434534381329688812011-04-02T04:31:03.255-04:002011-04-02T04:31:03.255-04:00Raymond -- (a) that's not David Waltz, and (b)...Raymond -- (a) that's not David Waltz, and (b) that's not a serious response to Lampe.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-90310615153327667632011-04-01T18:35:46.633-04:002011-04-01T18:35:46.633-04:00If Waltz ever wanted me to take him seriously, he ...<i>If Waltz ever wanted me to take him seriously, he would have dived into Peter Lampe’s work and show, not some kind of implied “guilt-by-association,” but rather, thought-by-thought, how Lampe’s portrayal of historical facts somehow becomes corrupted. </i><br /><br /><a href="http://capriciousness.blogspot.com/2010/10/ubi-episcopus-ibi-ecclesia-interaction.html" rel="nofollow">a start</a>.Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06341480161054661420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39101206007747153942011-04-01T13:41:44.855-04:002011-04-01T13:41:44.855-04:00There was a typical Protestant lack of unity even ...There was a typical Protestant lack of unity even back then.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-619755469383374792011-04-01T13:38:33.365-04:002011-04-01T13:38:33.365-04:00Of course, Jesus was a Nazarene...Of course, Jesus was a Nazarene...Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-89986720845632544802011-04-01T13:23:21.484-04:002011-04-01T13:23:21.484-04:00And then there was ... "John the Baptist.&quo...And then there was ... "John the <i><b>Baptist</b></i>."John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-22300203589999643442011-04-01T13:22:13.111-04:002011-04-01T13:22:13.111-04:00I'm inclined to agree with you. Infant baptism...I'm inclined to agree with you. Infant baptism was a development ...John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-43746090362323974452011-04-01T12:51:19.171-04:002011-04-01T12:51:19.171-04:00And no, we don't think the early church believ...And no, we don't think the early church believed identical to Presbyterians. <br /><br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br />.<br /><br />They were Baptists.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-90983615851140110962011-04-01T11:31:05.802-04:002011-04-01T11:31:05.802-04:00Hi Truth. My hope is to work now through Waltz'...Hi Truth. My hope is to work now through Waltz's individual objections.<br /><br />Not sure where that link is right at the moment, but David Waltz's really big ace in the hole was Robert Lee Williams's work "Bishops Lists". <br /><br />Williams wrote in about 1982. I've been able to access some of that work through Google Books -- it doesn't seem to be near the problem that he thinks it will be.<br /><br />In fact, Jason Engwer cites from that book quite extensively in his series on Apostolic Succession at Triablogue. <br /><br />My hope is to tie all that together in the days ahead.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-33443710136997621522011-04-01T11:27:26.555-04:002011-04-01T11:27:26.555-04:00No, Who. ;-)No, Who. ;-)John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-78523910316621034182011-04-01T10:47:24.638-04:002011-04-01T10:47:24.638-04:00Although Lampe did err on some things, he did get ...Although Lampe did err on some things, he did get other things right.<br /><br />Heck, just looking at myself alone, there's lots of things I get wrong which don't invalidate the things I do get right.<br /><br />Thanks for the post. <br /><br />So who's on first? John Bugay?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.com