tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post762834654224365773..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: On trusting your own eyes and your own mind, vs believing what the Roman church tells you to believeJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger144125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-65255715129942146642010-09-21T21:59:57.449-04:002010-09-21T21:59:57.449-04:00For the further edification of our Romanist reader...For the further edification of our Romanist readers...<br /><br /><b>Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-466) commenting on Col. 2:18:</b> Those who supported the Law encouraged them to worship the angels, claiming in this to respect the Law; this affliction persisted in Phrygia and Pisidia for a long time. <b>Hence a synod that assembled in Laodicea in Phrygia forbade by law praying to the angels; to this very day you can see chapels to Saint Michael among them and their neighbors. Those people, then, were giving that advice—namely, those addicted to self-abasement and claiming that the God of all is beyond sight, reach and comprehension, and that divine benevolence must be secured through the angels</b> (his meaning in self-abasement and angel worship). Robert Charles Hill, <i>Theodoret of Cyrus: Commentary on the Letters of St. Paul</i>, Vol. 2 (Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2001), p. 95.<br /><br /><b>Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393-466) commenting on Col. 3:17:</b> Since those people, remember, ordered the worship of angels, he urges the opposite, that they adorn both their words and their deeds with the memory of Christ the Lord. Offer thanks to the God and Father through him, he is saying, not through the angels. <b>Following this law and wishing to cure that ancient malady, the synod in Laodicea legislated against praying to angels and passing over our Lord Jesus Christ.</b> Robert Charles Hill, <i>Theodoret of Cyrus: Commentary on the Letters of St. Paul</i>, Vol. 2 (Brookline: Holy Cross Orthodox Press, 2001), p. 99.<br /><br />Even an ancient witness like Theodoret recognized that prayer to angels was an insult to Almighty God, for it is the by-passing of the only mediator between God and man. But you won't find such examples by internet surfing of Romanist web sites.dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-23147314348653193382010-09-16T15:48:23.935-04:002010-09-16T15:48:23.935-04:00Let's look at this one more time...
Augustine...Let's look at this one more time...<br /><br /><i>Augustine was not against the office of the Bishop because he was a bishop himself in the Catholic Church.</i> <br /><br />No one said he was.<br /><br /><i>What he was warning people against inaccurately attributing "sole mediatorship."</i><br /><br />I don't think so, for he said elsewhere...<br /><br /><b>Augustine (354-430):</b> Well then, you people, choose the kind of priest for whom you are not obligated to intercede, but on whose prayer you can safely rely. He is our Lord Jesus Christ, the sole priest, the sole mediator between God and humankind, the man Christ Jesus. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., <i>The Works of Saint Augustine, Expositions of the Psalms 33-50</i>, Part 3, Vol. 16, trans. Maria Boulding, O.S.B. (Hyde Park: New City Press, 2000), Exposition 2 of Psalm 36.20 (37), p. 62.dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-24655247334025039922010-09-16T14:24:13.738-04:002010-09-16T14:24:13.738-04:00Pastor King,
acknowledged, thanks!Pastor King,<br /><br />acknowledged, thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-62688423728378964112010-09-16T13:12:30.243-04:002010-09-16T13:12:30.243-04:00Oh, I see, TF. Well, I am short on time at this m...Oh, I see, TF. Well, I am short on time at this moment so alas, I can't expand on what I meant. All I will say is that I mean only to represent the classical sacramental position of Luther and Calvin, which is, as you know, much more robust than a lot of typical Protestants are comfortable with. I.e., Luther says that at baptism, Christ's hands push you down into the water through the hands of the minister, and Calvin says that in the Supper we are drawn up into the heavens to commune with Christ. <br /><br />This is a much more "realistic" position on the sacraments than a lot of Protestants are comfortable with. In my opinion, one of the reasons many Protestants are snookered by the claims of Rome is because they come from sacramentology-poor churches and are simply blown away by the "realism" of Rome as opposed to the "mere symbolism" of their former churches. I heard R.C. Sproul once talking about this, and he said if only people knew the real Reformed position on the sacraments, they would likely not buy the Roman Catholic arguments.Tim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-8618179668250751842010-09-16T12:55:46.932-04:002010-09-16T12:55:46.932-04:00Jae:
I think Pastor King hit the nail on the head...Jae:<br /><br />I think Pastor King hit the nail on the head. Augustine's complaint is that if the bishop is a mediator then, since there are many bishops, there would be many mediators, which Augustine insists is wrong.<br /><br />Augustine, like Reformed believers, held that there is one mediator between God and man. Even the CCC affirms those words, though perhaps not with the meaning that either Augustine or ourselves would give it.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85974740217592685332010-09-16T12:10:58.877-04:002010-09-16T12:10:58.877-04:00Tim:
I was focused on the expression "mediat...Tim:<br /><br />I was focused on the expression "mediates Christ to the ordinary believer." I don't know what you meant by it. You were describing the RC position with that phrase. I thought you might be willing to contrast that concept with the concept of the "means of grace."<br /><br />If you do not wish to, no problem. It was just a question to satisfy my curiosity about your take on the difference.<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-60530509557538754852010-09-16T11:48:17.096-04:002010-09-16T11:48:17.096-04:00What he was warning people against inaccurately at...<i>What he was warning people against inaccurately attributing "sole mediatorship."</i><br /><br />That's an interesting spin. When I read Augustine, I saw him warning against "many mediators" in contrast to Paul's prescription for "one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus."<br /><br /><i>Saint Paul says that all Christians are mediators or “ambassadors for Christ” (2 Cor. 5:18-20), sent and entrusted by Christ’s authority to mediate God’s message of reconciliation. Those who receive these ambassadors receive Christ Himself: “He who receives any one whom I send receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me” (Jn. 13:20; cf. Lk. 10:16; Mt. 10:40).</i><br /><br />Ambassadors equal mediators? Please direct me to Rome's official interpretation of 2 Cor 5:18-20, otherwise you're engaging in the kind of private interpretation which Romanism underscores as the danger of Protestantism.dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-25312395312127703612010-09-16T11:35:44.348-04:002010-09-16T11:35:44.348-04:00Augustine was not against the office of the Bishop...Augustine was not against the office of the Bishop because he was a bishop himself in the Catholic Church. What he was warning people against inaccurately attributing "sole mediatorship." It is this elevation of an individual man (Aelius Donatus) — the formation of a "cult of personality" around him — of which Augustine is speaking when he warns against attributing to someone an undue role of bishop as exclusive mediator that usurp the "UNIQUE" mediatorship of Christ. <br /><br />We are all called to be mediators as Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for and behalf of all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one TRUE mediator. ( Tim 2:1-2)<br /><br />In Jesus’ one and perfect mediation (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5), subordinate and secondary mediators are able to participate. In the Old Testament, God used the patriarchs and prophets to mediate His reconciliation with the people of Israel. In the Old and New Testaments, God used angels to mediate His messages and His grace.<br /><br />Saint Paul says that all Christians are mediators or “ambassadors for Christ” (2 Cor. 5:18-20), sent and entrusted by Christ’s authority to mediate God’s message of reconciliation. Those who receive these ambassadors receive Christ Himself: “He who receives any one whom I send receives me; and he who receives me receives him who sent me” (Jn. 13:20; cf. Lk. 10:16; Mt. 10:40).Jaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08949794711507726903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-20508709836571547762010-09-16T11:09:25.816-04:002010-09-16T11:09:25.816-04:00Alexander, you say we're talking past each oth...Alexander, you say we're talking past each other - fair enough. I'll accept my share of the blame if I have not been clear, either. <br /><br />At any rate, I think I do understand the Catholic teaching on justification and the sacraments pretty well. I've been around this block more than a few times the past 10 years; I'm not a novice at this.<br /><br />As for your continued generalized claims about the splits in Protestantism, I still insist that you have to do more legwork to prove your point. Protestant divergences are not always about "doctrine" in the sense that that topic gets discussed on apologetics blogs. Sometimes, nay, a lot of times, the divergences are merely cultural and ones of emphasis, as in the multiple varieties of Presbyterian churches that all adhere to the same confession of faith, yet remain visibly separate. Niebuhr is good on this in his <i>The Social Sources of Denominationalism</i>. <br /><br />The problem I'm getting at is that "Protestantism" as Catholic apologists use the term is just a hopeless mishmash of all kinds of different, and sometimes completely incompatible, systems of belief and life. Generalizations are often useful, of course, and I have never understand the penchant of some Catholic apologists to deny, for instance, that it is possible to generalize about "Catholic apologetics." It is possible to generalize about "Protestants," but one has to be a lot more careful than Catholic apologists usually are when they do it. I mean, sheesh, if it's really true that there are 33,000 different and contradictory things that say they are "Protestant," any generalization from those 33,000 things is going to have to be very, very sophisticated, wouldn't you agree?Tim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-69118603780655623952010-09-16T11:01:33.926-04:002010-09-16T11:01:33.926-04:00TF: I don't understand your question. I'v...TF: I don't understand your question. I've clearly said several times that the Protestant position is that we are united to Christ by faith (alone) and possess all of His benefits by faith (alone). I did also say, to Alexander, that the Word and sacraments are "means of grace." This is traditional Protestant language - only the Radical Reformers believed that baptism and the Supper were just signs not connected (even in the case of the impious) to the realities they signify - but that language, "means of grace," in no way means what Roman Catholics mean if they use that term. Much has been written on this subject these past few years by various Reformed writers, and, just in case someone is wondering, no, it's not an "FV" position to say what I said. It's just Luther and Calvin and the Westminster Confession.<br /><br />So I'm not sure what you're asking me.Tim Enloehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00496999199258689044noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-75263644264127027972010-09-16T08:04:47.400-04:002010-09-16T08:04:47.400-04:00John Bugay: "I don't know that Bellisari...<b>John Bugay</b>: <i>"I don't know that Bellisario ever adds anything of value to the discussions here."</i><br /><br />Bellisario's value is that folks get to observe the behavior of a Catholic in denial.<br /><br /><i>"There can be no possible response from Catholics to the Reformation other than impotent rage."</i><br /><br />Maybe some Catholics. Thankfully, not all Catholics.<br /><br /><i>"But Matthew Bellisario -- you are the most bellicose, sorriest excuse for a Roman Catholic that I have ever seen."</i><br /><br />Hmmm. Bellicose Bellisario. I see how Rhology combined the two and came up with "Bellicosario".Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-38559352156426890102010-09-16T00:29:29.588-04:002010-09-16T00:29:29.588-04:00On following a good principle:
On Abortion, it i...On following a good principle: <br /><br />On Abortion, it is better to err on the side of life than err on the side of death.<br /><br />On the Church, it wise for me to err on the side of the Church with historical and theological continuity with the first generations of Christians that followed Christ’s Apostles than err on the side of men 1,517 years later.<br /><br />To Matthew Bellisario, you are a voice of reason, right on the mark! just don't let your emotions get you even in the face of unprovoked attacks.<br /><br />Peace.Jaehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08949794711507726903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-66099396358209932162010-09-16T00:19:50.339-04:002010-09-16T00:19:50.339-04:00"On trusting your own eyes and your own mind,...<b>"On trusting your own eyes and your own mind, vs believing what the Roman church tells you to believe"</b><br /><br />Well, here's a recent news article about folks in Belgium trusting their own eyes and their own mind vs. blindly believing what the Roman Church tells them to believe: <br /><br /><b><a href="http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/benelux/100910/catholic-church-belgium-sexual-abuse-priests" rel="nofollow">Belgium: Amid sex scandals, de-baptism gains favor</a></b><br /><b>Child sex abuse, and other church failings, lead Belgians to formally renounce religion.</b><br /><br />Excerpts:<br /><br />"BRUSSELS, Belgium — Faced with ever-more harrowing revelations of child sex abuse by Roman Catholic clergymen, Belgians are turning in record numbers to apostasy — formally breaking with their religion through a process of “de-baptism.”<br /><br />“It has increased enormously since the cases of child abuse. It keeps going up,” said Bjorn Siffer, deputy director of Flemish Humanist-Secular Society. “We know from the bishops' secretaries that they can’t cope with all the requests they are getting for de-baptism.”<br /><br />Siffer says 80 people ditched Catholicism during a single “de-baptism day” in Antwerp in June and a similar number dropped out of the Church in an event earlier this year in the western city of Kortrijk.<br /><br />Leclerq said many people were also influenced to leave the church because of the decision by Pope Benedict XVI last year to lift the excommunication of Bishop Richard Williamson, who has described Jews as enemies of the Church and denied the existence of the Nazi gas chambers.<br /><br /><b>Belgium was shaken by the revelation in April that the Bishop of Bruges Roger Vanhegheluwe, one of the country’s best-known clergymen, had sexually abused his own nephew for 13 years, starting when the boy was just 5 years old.</b><br /><br />The country was further shocked over the weekend when a Church inquiry commission published <b>the often graphic testimony of hundreds of people who stepped forward to say they had been abused by priests in their youth.<br /><br />Widespread suspicions that the Church authorities covered up such crimes intensified after newspapers last month published transcripts</b> of meetings between Vanhegheluwe’s victim and Cardinal Godfried Danneels. Texts show the former head of the Church in Belgium trying to persuade the man, now in his 40s, to hold off on going public with his accusations.<br /><br />The Catholic hierarchy has hit back, claiming the papers edited the text to carry out a “character assassination”of the cardinal and denouncing police searches of Danneel’s home and other Church properties. However, there’s no doubt that many Belgians have had their faith severely dented.<br /><br />“With these cases of pedophilia, the Catholic Church no longer enjoys the same esteem among many people,” Cannon Herman Cosijns, episcopal vicar of the Brussels diocese, told French television last month. “It will come back, but this is a difficult time.”Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-51505308455854392872010-09-15T22:39:37.932-04:002010-09-15T22:39:37.932-04:00natamllc,
While I am grateful for what you intend...natamllc,<br /><br />While I am grateful for what you intend as a kind gesture, I don't think that it's helpful to those with whom we are in dispute to express such sentiments to one another as those who are on the same side of these issues.<br /><br />I hope you receive this with that sense of propriety.dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-69265315412165066762010-09-15T21:56:30.482-04:002010-09-15T21:56:30.482-04:00Pastor King,
again you find and publish such patr...Pastor King,<br /><br />again you find and publish such patristic wisdom!<br /><br /><i> Sure, that man is a mediator, but in the party of Donatus, to block the way, not to lead the way, as Donatus himself did; he introduced his own name, you see, to close off the road to Christ.</i> <br /><br />I can perceive Augustine must have understood by that sermon and those words cited above at least, in part, just what Jesus experienced during His Glorious Ministry while He too defended the Faith:::><br /><br /><b>Luk 11:45 One of the lawyers answered him, "Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also." <br />Luk 11:46 And he said, "Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers. <br />Luk 11:47 Woe to you! For you build the tombs of the prophets whom your fathers killed. <br />Luk 11:48 So you are witnesses and you consent to the deeds of your fathers, for they killed them, and you build their tombs. <br />Luk 11:49 Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,' <br />Luk 11:50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, <br />Luk 11:51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation. <br />Luk 11:52 Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge. You did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering." <br />Luk 11:53 As he went away from there, the scribes and the Pharisees began to press him hard and to provoke him to speak about many things, <br />Luk 11:54 lying in wait for him, to catch him in something he might say.</b> <br /><br />I suppose just as with those when Jesus said that, these men with Augustine's words are insulted too?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-57730449780313117022010-09-15T21:25:12.653-04:002010-09-15T21:25:12.653-04:00Bye Alexander ...Bye Alexander ...John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-40060970112753705182010-09-15T21:22:23.796-04:002010-09-15T21:22:23.796-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Alexander Grecohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18317035068895563791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-34780460358087742052010-09-15T20:39:54.355-04:002010-09-15T20:39:54.355-04:00Wow guys. Thanks for all the edification. I'm ...Wow guys. Thanks for all the edification. I'm ready for my shower now.Pilgrimsarbourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18046918223325823689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-78964481233292348182010-09-15T20:33:12.032-04:002010-09-15T20:33:12.032-04:00David, thanks for that clarification from Augustin...David, thanks for that clarification from Augustine contra the fairly bold statement by Alexander Greco.<br /><br />One of the most unfounded claims I've seen in this thread is that the Protestants here do not understand Roman Catholicism. It's true that none of the Protestants here has studied under 16th century Jesuits, but we are well-educated, dedicated people who have interacted -- some more closely than we would have liked -- with a system that we choose to reject. <br /><br />It amazes me, as I write these posts, that the original topic is rarely interacted with. I DO know Catholicism, and further, I've described it accurately.<br /><br />If the Catholics here are somehow hesitant to admit that "yes, this is the way the Catholic Church does things," well, then, we're not responsible for your lack of self-esteem, or your wanting to sugar-coat these processes that are very much unpalatable even to 21st century Roman Catholics. <br /><br />As I write this, the first comment out of Matthew Bellisario's word processor is an insult: "Trust yourself Bugay. You would have rejected the apostles to their faces." Then he spit out a much misused (but dogmatically stated) platitude about "the Church, which is the bulwark of truth." <br /><br />If you want to behave that way, fine, but not here. I don't know that Bellisario ever adds anything of value to the discussions here. And Alexander Greco has somehow changed from name-caller to prima-donna. <br /><br />Most of the Catholics who visit here simply remind me of fish out of water sucking in the air. There can be no possible response from Catholics to the Reformation other than impotent rage. <br /><br />I would caution my Protestant brethren, for their own sakes, about flinging insults at these folks. But Matthew Bellisario -- you are the most bellicose, sorriest excuse for a Roman Catholic that I have ever seen. I can be rough, but I've never insulted people the way that you do. And Alexander Greco -- I don't care one whit about your sense of fairness. This is a Protestant board, and you don't get to come here and shanghai the discussion with your whining. And Sean Patrick -- I've already told you what I think of you. You maybe should read your own "Called to Communion" posting guidelines. <br /><br />We bend over backwards to interact in a decent way with you guys. You don't need to be here.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-9537665639556286152010-09-15T19:01:16.832-04:002010-09-15T19:01:16.832-04:00So Jesus should not have placed the apostles betwe...<i>So Jesus should not have placed the apostles between Him and other men right? They were the Church, they were BETWEEN.</i><br /><br />Jesus did not place his apostles between believers and God, nor did his apostles. In fact, this is the very thing that Augustine pointed out to be characteristic of at least some of the donatists.<br /><br />Thus the very point you own, Augustine repudiated explicitly...<br /><br /><b>Augustine (354-430):</b> Here the very painful thought occurs to me that I should remind you that Parmenian, who was once a bishop of the Donatists, had the audacity to state in one of his letters that the bishop is the mediator between the people and God. You can see that they are putting themselves forward in the place of the bridegroom; they are corrupting the souls of those others with a sacrilegious adultery. This is no mean case of presumption, one that would strike me as totally incredible had I not read it. You see, if the bishop is the mediator between the people and God, it follows that we must take it there are many mediators, since there are many bishops. So then, in order to read the letter of Parmenian, let us censor the letter of the apostle Paul where he says, For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tm 2:5). But between whom is he the mediator, if not between God and his people? So between God and his body, because the Church is his body. Truly monstrous, therefore, is that pride which has the audacity to set up the bishop as mediator, guilty of the adulterous fallacy of claiming for itself the marriage of Christ. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., <i>The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons</i>, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.52 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 220.<br /><br /><b>Augustine</b> went on to say a little later in the same sermon: And that is what these people are neither afraid nor ashamed to say, that the bishop is a mediator between God and men. Sure, that man is a mediator, but in the party of Donatus, to block the way, not to lead the way, as Donatus himself did; he introduced his own name, you see, to close off the road to Christ. John E. Rotelle, O.S.A., ed., <i>The Works of Saint Augustine, Newly Discovered Sermons</i>, Part 3, Vol. 11, trans. Edmund Hill, O.P., Sermon 198.55 (Hyde Park: New City Press, 1997), p. 222.<br /><br />Thus even Augustine rejected that paradigm.dtkinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08517142528948228472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-66733587379978277622010-09-15T18:19:43.982-04:002010-09-15T18:19:43.982-04:00Tim wrote: "But you should consider the fact ...<i>Tim wrote: "But you should consider the fact that what your statement implies is that the Magisterium is placed BETWEEN Christ and the ordinary believer, and mediates Christ to the ordinary believer."<br /><br />Tim,<br /><br />Clearly, we have direct access to God through Christ, notwithstanding Bellisario's response.<br /><br />What if in place of Bellisario's response, someone appealed to the fact that the Word, Sacraments, and Prayer are means of grace? Would your position change?<br /><br />-TurretinFan</i><br /><br />My argument is: <br /><br />There isn't any less access to the Father through Christ in the Catholic Church.Alexander Grecohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18317035068895563791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-79358109622866289952010-09-15T18:17:19.189-04:002010-09-15T18:17:19.189-04:00M. Schultz:
It has been some time since I have re...M. Schultz:<br /><br />It has been some time since I have read the document. If my memory serves me well, it didn't give any dogmatic definition of what separated brethren means. Setting this aside, Protestants reject the apostolicity of the Catholic Church, as well as <i>de fide</i> teachings. I don't think that the document denies this. I'll read it again in light of your comment.Alexander Grecohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18317035068895563791noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-89419368722222495682010-09-15T18:12:34.349-04:002010-09-15T18:12:34.349-04:00Hey, I go into a meeting, and there are 42 comment...Hey, I go into a meeting, and there are 42 comments; I come out and there are 120. Wow.John Bugayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17728044301053738095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-23668129079449769962010-09-15T17:51:30.575-04:002010-09-15T17:51:30.575-04:00Tim wrote: "But you should consider the fact ...Tim wrote: "But you should consider the fact that what your statement implies is that the Magisterium is placed BETWEEN Christ and the ordinary believer, and mediates Christ to the ordinary believer."<br /><br />Tim,<br /><br />Clearly, we have direct access to God through Christ, notwithstanding Bellisario's response.<br /><br />What if in place of Bellisario's response, someone appealed to the fact that the Word, Sacraments, and Prayer are means of grace? Would your position change?<br /><br />-TurretinFanTurretinfanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01802277110253897379noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-67579766769392656182010-09-15T17:38:36.246-04:002010-09-15T17:38:36.246-04:00Alex,
"My brain needs lots of help."
T...Alex,<br /><br /><i>"My brain needs lots of help."</i><br /><br />That is your problem here; and I might say the problem with Catholicism too.<br /><br />You feel your brains need fixing.<br /><br />We don't think our brains need any work at all. <br /><br />Why?<br /><br />Why use our brain when we have been given the Mind of Christ?<br /><br />Remember it is He who is tasked with building His Church.<br /><br />It is a glorious thing!<br /><br /><b>1Co 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. <br />1Co 2:15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. <br />1Co 2:16 "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.</b><br /><br />Only one who was dead in their trespasses and sins and then God made them alive in Christ would ever understand such essentials of the Faith once delivered to the Saints!<br /><br /><b><i>Eph 4:17 Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. <br />Eph 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. <br />Eph 4:19 They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. <br />Eph 4:20 But that is not the way you learned Christ!-- <br />Eph 4:21 assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, <br />Eph 4:22 to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, <br />Eph 4:23 and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, <br />Eph 4:24 and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.</i></b> <br /><br /><br />Now, of course, not everyone in Christ takes advantage of all the Promises of God, which is to their shame and discredit.<br /><br />It is a terrible thing to waste, the Mind of Christ, when once you have access to Him!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com