tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post7415354922202227925..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: An Argument Against An Infallible Papacy, Luther StyleJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-73676293484765013732009-10-18T23:15:30.623-04:002009-10-18T23:15:30.623-04:00Yes- though it is hardly a question of denying. If...Yes- though it is hardly a question of denying. If I told you that the Harry Potter books were inspired, would you believe me? Or the Homeric poems, for that matter? A claim like that is absurd on its face, for that or any other book or story. <br /><br />The reverse is the case that has to be made- why one's chosen book has some super-special knowledge or inspiration which is quite obviously <i>not</i> immediately evident in its own text. (At least not until you get to the King James version, which is inspired!;)<br /><br />It never ceases to amaze me how books can claim to be the word of god and be taken seriously by the very same people who wouldn't dream of honoring the very same claim made for other books. What's the diff?<br /><br />I can imagine the dialog now:<br /><br /><i>But it's based on truth!</i><br /><br />Oh, is Genesis true?<br /><br /><i>That's poetic, ... no, I mean the Jesus story!</i><br /><br />So Tacitus is inspired also?<br /><br /><i>No, you know what I mean- Jesus is true and also good- he tells us what to do and where we will go after we die.</i><br /><br />Does that mean Scientology is inspired as well?<br /><br /><i>Sure- Scientology is also inspired, just not quite as well-inspired as the Bible. Indeed, it may have been inspired by Satan, but I'd have to check my e-meter on that one.</i>Burkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11158223475895530397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-16776531983055687732009-10-18T21:47:53.579-04:002009-10-18T21:47:53.579-04:00"For Scripture is the mish-mash product of hu...<i>"For Scripture is the mish-mash product of humans, from the poetry of genesis to the dilirium of revelations."</i><br /><br />I just want to make sure that I'm correct about the terms of the argument; I take it that you deny the divine inspiration of scripture. Is that that right?<br /><br />Thanks.EAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03649331234241764065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-66479915389456775512009-10-16T23:09:44.936-04:002009-10-16T23:09:44.936-04:00No, there are no contradictions in scripture. Noth...No, there are no contradictions in scripture. Nothing is "tossed out" in order to make sense of the rest. At least, nothing has to be. What you are describing does happen, but it happens when somone clings to a system that is sub-biblical, or when somone hates God and needs a reason to not believe.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-3932716526644297502009-10-16T20:38:13.622-04:002009-10-16T20:38:13.622-04:00Hi, Andrew-
If a DVD manual is contradictory, the...Hi, Andrew-<br /><br />If a DVD manual is contradictory, then that would indeed impeach the reliability of our knowledge of the DVD player. The player might be reliable, but what's the point if you don't know what it is supposed to be reliable about, and also don't have any other means of interacting with that DVD player and judging its properties?<br /><br />The player, as god, is, after all, quite hidden, not performing miracles, etc. in the present day. So the manual is all you have to go on.<br /><br />And scripture is quite unclear. Large amounts <i>have</i> to be tossed out if other parts are going to make sense. Most of the old testament was, ahem, <i>superceded</i> by the new testament, except for the occasional Levitical command for which people still have a warm spot in their hearts. What the heck was god going on about all that time, anyhow? It's a huge mess, and a blanket statement like <i>"It isn't that the scripture is unclear"</i> totally fails to face up to the truth. <br /><br />Which is that you are picking and choosing by necessity.Burkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11158223475895530397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-66303849821524620032009-10-16T20:04:58.134-04:002009-10-16T20:04:58.134-04:00Disagreement on the meaning of anything, be it the...Disagreement on the meaning of anything, be it the Bible, The Koran, or the directions for the DVD player, is not an argument against the things relability. It is possible to know what the bible means. It takes work, and people will disagree, but words mean things, and they can be understood.<br />You are correct in saying that believing what you want and tossing out what you don't is wrong. That, I would assert, is one of the major causes of disagreement. It isn't that the scripture is unclear. It is that people claiming to believe it, don't believe it all. Unfortunatley Christians often are quick to assert "sola scriptura" while neglegting "tota scriptura".Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-40976490964236008432009-10-16T17:17:01.256-04:002009-10-16T17:17:01.256-04:00Right, so how can you trust it if you are spending...Right, so how can you trust it if you are spending reams of blog pages deciphering what it means, selecting those portions that mean something to you, and tossing out those that don't? Doesn't sound very trustworthy, but more like an excuse for figuring out what you already were thinking yourself. <br /><br />One could just as well "trust" the pope while doing what one wants to do anyhow, which is the customary Catholic practice. With a dollop of guilt.Burkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11158223475895530397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-15053219487091030462009-10-16T16:58:22.854-04:002009-10-16T16:58:22.854-04:00"We should trust ourselves and our reason. Th..."We should trust ourselves and our reason. That is enough."<br /><br />My reason tells me to trust the scripture. What of that?Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39006486610900769692009-10-16T16:33:34.903-04:002009-10-16T16:33:34.903-04:00Hi, Andrew-
I am not asking you to put your faith...Hi, Andrew-<br /><br />I am not asking you to put your faith in me, but in yourself, where it was all along anyhow. There is no authority that comes without that baggage of being human, as every argument you make demonstrates. Even if the perfect truth were to reside in the Koran, as it is supposed to, it is <i>our</i> interpretation of it that we follow. The many schools of interpretation indicate that whatever a writing's original truth or untruth, we are incapable of recognizing it except by our own reasoning and experience. Recognize that, and you are there.Burkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11158223475895530397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-63098286197387877832009-10-16T15:54:07.220-04:002009-10-16T15:54:07.220-04:00But, Burk you are a human. Why should I trust what...But, Burk you are a human. Why should I trust what you said? Your argument is incoherent.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-85263253390287497172009-10-15T11:33:35.923-04:002009-10-15T11:33:35.923-04:00If none should put their faith in human beings, th...If none should put their faith in human beings, then why put faith in scripture, either? For Scripture is the mish-mash product of humans, from the poetry of genesis to the dilirium of revelations. Teasing out anything remotely sensible from this pile of human writing is neigh well impossible, leading of course to the endless sects of protestantism. <br /><br />We should trust ourselves and our reason. That is enough.Burkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11158223475895530397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-39386345379214069492009-10-15T08:57:06.607-04:002009-10-15T08:57:06.607-04:00That is an argument I have not heard before.That is an argument I have not heard before.bkayceehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15735441833526239587noreply@blogger.com