tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post7178690546547183718..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: By Grace Alone is by Faith AloneJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-48768472446675056812007-10-18T14:12:00.000-04:002007-10-18T14:12:00.000-04:00Hi Carrie,You wrote:>> If grace were sufficient fo...Hi Carrie,<BR/><BR/>You wrote:<BR/><BR/>>> If grace were sufficient for salvation, then grace would save you on its own. It wouldn't need your cooperation.>><BR/><BR/>Me: I disagree, and have devoted two threads on my blog that address what I believe is a misunderstanding on your (and some others) part:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2007/08/more-on-sufficiency-of-grace_13.html" REL="nofollow">More on the Sufficiency of Grace</A> <BR/><BR/>And:<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2007/08/james-whites-confusion-concerning.html" REL="nofollow">James White’s confusion concerning Sufficient Grace</A><BR/><BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-32693593368978226462007-10-18T14:02:00.000-04:002007-10-18T14:02:00.000-04:00Hi Pontificator,You posted:>>David, this does not ...Hi Pontificator,<BR/><BR/>You posted:<BR/><BR/>>>David, this does not accurately represent the Catholic position either. The Second Synod of Orange, reaffirmed by the Council of Trent, is clear that faith is in some sense a gift of God.>><BR/><BR/>Me: It seems I am having a somewhat difficult time communicating my thoughts in this thread. In no sense did I intend to deny that faith is a gift from God, and as such it is also a grace given by God. However, faith is multifaceted. Faith is called a “work” (<I>ergon</I>) by our Lord:<BR/><BR/>Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28, 29)<BR/><BR/>And Paul also wrote of the “work of faith::<BR/><BR/>Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father. (! Thess. 1:3)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Faith can be “dead” or “living”. Faith can be “increased” (“grows”). Faith “works through love”. <BR/><BR/>So, though faith is certainly a gift from God, faith is also something one exercises.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-54527025127668723772007-10-17T19:50:00.000-04:002007-10-17T19:50:00.000-04:00David wrote: "grace is something GIVEN by God, bu...David wrote: "grace is something GIVEN by God, but faith is something DONE by man."<BR/><BR/>David, this does not accurately represent the Catholic position either. The Second Synod of Orange, reaffirmed by the Council of Trent, is clear that faith is in some sense a gift of God. Canon 5:<BR/><BR/>'If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism--if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism-if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, "And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil. 1:6). And again, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.'Striderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07859685939890312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-42447987660992564662007-10-17T19:41:00.000-04:002007-10-17T19:41:00.000-04:00Sufficient to accomplish salvation. That is what I...<I>Sufficient to accomplish salvation. </I><BR/><BR/>That is what I thought you meant but that doesn't make sense. <BR/><BR/>If grace were sufficient for salvation, then grace would save you on its own. It wouldn't need your cooperation. <BR/><BR/>This is why Gerstner says "the Catholic trusts Christ to help him save himself".Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-28910744322752148042007-10-17T17:27:00.000-04:002007-10-17T17:27:00.000-04:00Hi Carrie,Arrrgh…was I that unclear? Sufficient to...Hi Carrie,<BR/><BR/>Arrrgh…was I that unclear? <B>Sufficient to accomplish salvation</B>. The only graces (unmerited) necessary for salvation (GIFT) are the graces (unmerited) given by God. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-32013236649908676572007-10-17T17:08:00.000-04:002007-10-17T17:08:00.000-04:00Now, I am not aware of any Scripture which states ...<I>Now, I am not aware of any Scripture which states that justification/salvation is “not by grace alone”; however, James is quite clear concerning faith: “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”</I><BR/><BR/>Why don't you take this up on Rhology's current post.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-19725778753790676232007-10-17T17:04:00.000-04:002007-10-17T17:04:00.000-04:00Everything which is necessary for salvation is GIV...<I>Everything which is necessary for salvation is GIVEN by God (GRACE ALONE, for all graces given by God are UNMERITED), and these graces are SUFFICIENT to accomplish their intent. </I><BR/><BR/>Sufficient to accomplish what?Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-48495014283911467172007-10-17T16:03:00.000-04:002007-10-17T16:03:00.000-04:00Hello Carrie,You posted the following:>>[Pontifica...Hello Carrie,<BR/><BR/>You posted the following:<BR/><BR/>>>[Pontificator] Is Gerstner's construal of the Catholic understanding of justification accurate? No.<BR/><BR/>{Carrie] It is Catholic justification as seen from a Protestant viewpoint. Certainly you can follow his point? Grace is not grace unless it is by faith so unless the Catholic viewpoint is by faith ALONE, then his assessment is accurate.>><BR/><BR/><BR/>Me: Until this morning, I have not been able to spend anytime on the internet since my last 10/15/07 afternoon post, so I am playing ‘catch-up’. As such, if my following comments have already been addressed, please forgive me.<BR/><BR/>I disagree with Dr. Gerstner’s assessment (which you seem to endorse); and here is why: grace is something GIVEN by God, but faith is something DONE by man. The distinctions are too great to equate them. Everything which is necessary for salvation is GIVEN by God (GRACE ALONE, for all graces given by God are UNMERITED), and these graces are SUFFICIENT to accomplish their intent. <BR/><BR/>Now, I am not aware of any Scripture which states that justification/salvation is “not by grace alone”; however, James is quite clear concerning faith: “You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.”<BR/><BR/>Trent agrees with the Scriptures (grace alone, but not faith alone); as such, I side with Trent, and not with Dr. Gerstner.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Grace and peace,<BR/><BR/>DavidDavid Waltzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17966083488813749052noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-72404545687454898982007-10-17T11:47:00.000-04:002007-10-17T11:47:00.000-04:00EgoMakarios,Works of man's own devising and of the...EgoMakarios,<BR/><BR/><I>Works of man's own devising and of the obsolete Law are worthless, being not of faith or of faith in the wrong thing. </I><BR/><BR/>Sorry, this is not possible. <BR/>Look again at Ephesians 2:8-10.<BR/><BR/>8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the <B>gift of God, 9 <I>not a result of works</I></B>, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, <B>created in Christ Jesus for good works</B>, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.<BR/><BR/>Note how it's NOT the result of works, which is what you are saying, that salvation is at least PARTLY due to works.<BR/>Note also how the <B>***same***</B> good works that God has prepared for us to do are the same works that are NOT the cause of our salvation.<BR/><BR/>That alone is enough to call out the RC and EO systems as false.<BR/><BR/><BR/>And kmerian, no Calvinist claims s/he can know who the elect are either. You may have known that; I'm just sayin'.<BR/><BR/>Peace,<BR/>RhologyRhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-26903514243065150142007-10-17T10:59:00.000-04:002007-10-17T10:59:00.000-04:00This is not some "idea" of fairness. Surely not al...<I>This is not some "idea" of fairness. Surely not all will accept Christ, but God calls on us to preach to all, so that all may have the choice. There is an "elect", but we should never presume to know who they are or are not.</I><BR/><BR/>I never said we shouldn’t. <BR/><BR/>But you said you reject Protestantism (Calvinism) because of the lack of personal responsibility but that is not true. We have ALL sinned, therefore we ALL deserve hell. If God chose to save none that would still be a just decision on his part since we all DESERVE hell because of our sinfulness. Saving even just one would still be an act of mercy. <BR/><BR/>So where is the lack of personal responsibility?Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-44260367163664962242007-10-17T09:04:00.000-04:002007-10-17T09:04:00.000-04:00For God so loved the world (notice it is not: "For...For God so loved the world (notice it is not: "For God so loved the elect"), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)<BR/><BR/>"Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations (make disciples, not identify the elect), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20)<BR/><BR/>This is not some "idea" of fairness. Surely not all will accept Christ, but God calls on us to preach to all, so that all may have the choice. There is an "elect", but we should never presume to know who they are or are not.kmerianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11096693234053975595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-47902520171501794832007-10-17T08:30:00.000-04:002007-10-17T08:30:00.000-04:00Carrie, I do agree that we all deserve hell, but I...<I> Carrie, I do agree that we all deserve hell, but I disagree that God created us solely for that purpose. The Bible tells us that God wills all to be saved and that God loves the entire world. Not just the "Elect".</I><BR/><BR/>Then why doesn’t he save all? <BR/><BR/>This is the problem with these types of fairness arguments from a human perspective, they all can be broken down with a variation of the same objection. Catholicism has made the blunder of dealing with what appears to be unfair by a “you will be judged on your response to whatever light you are given” but that really isn’t a biblically-based argument. It is a man-based argument.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-41436406742602537372007-10-17T08:19:00.000-04:002007-10-17T08:19:00.000-04:00Ok, I am done with these. Carrie or Rho, can I rec...<I>Ok, I am done with these. Carrie or Rho, can I recommend deletion so that we can get on with some intelligent debate?</I><BR/><BR/>Yeah, I will delete them. <BR/><BR/>I don't usually like to delete comments but I will in this case.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-80758941006471205972007-10-17T07:49:00.000-04:002007-10-17T07:49:00.000-04:00Rhology, you are right, I should correct myself, t...Rhology, you are right, I should correct myself, that is why I reject Calvinism.<BR/><BR/>Jason, but Calvinism states that you don't have to work "every hour of every day" either you are saved or you are not, working is irrelevant.<BR/><BR/>Anonymous, if you want to know the "truth" about the Catholic Church, I suggest you go to Vatican.va would you send someone to a neo-nazi website to read the truth about Judaism?<BR/><BR/>Also, such christian charity you show! "By their fruits you shall know them".<BR/><BR/>Ok, I am done with these. Carrie or Rho, can I recommend deletion so that we can get on with some <I>intelligent</I> debate?<BR/><BR/>Carrie, I do agree that we all deserve hell, but I disagree that God created us solely for that purpose. The Bible tells us that God wills all to be saved and that God loves the entire world. Not just the "Elect".kmerianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11096693234053975595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-65187117491633567832007-10-16T22:42:00.000-04:002007-10-16T22:42:00.000-04:00"According to Rom 11:6 and Eph 2:8-10, grace and w...<I>"According to Rom 11:6 and Eph 2:8-10, grace and works cannot be mixed lest grace become no longer grace."</I><BR/><BR/>Yet the example of Noah shows that what is done by faith is considered a work of God, not man. Works of man's own devising and of the obsolete Law are worthless, being not of faith or of faith in the wrong thing. Following the Law is as worthless to my salvation as building an ark would be, since the Law is not God's particular revelation to me anymore than the command to build of the ark is. Nowhere, therefore, does Paul say that following Jesus' teachings do not justify as he does that the works of the Law do not justify.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-80419225686627668102007-10-16T18:34:00.000-04:002007-10-16T18:34:00.000-04:00Thanks for the post, Carrie. That explains why ecu...Thanks for the post, Carrie. That explains why ecumenism is wrong. The Gospel of the Bible and the Protestant Reformers is really at odds with the "Gospel" of Rome. That's why I choose to remain a Christian and a Protestant (Evangelical).<BR/><BR/>Blessings,<BR/>Albert (also an ex-Catholic)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-75098366637752508402007-10-16T17:39:00.000-04:002007-10-16T17:39:00.000-04:00This is one of the reasons I reject protestantism....<I>This is one of the reasons I reject protestantism. The complete abdication of personal responsibility</I><BR/><BR/>kmerian, your objectives are based on a human idea of fairness which doesn't play out well when talking about God.<BR/><BR/>ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, therefore all of us deserve hell.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-83311837241615156212007-10-16T17:31:00.000-04:002007-10-16T17:31:00.000-04:00Is Gerstner's construal of the Catholic understand...<I>Is Gerstner's construal of the Catholic understanding of justification accurate? No.</I><BR/><BR/>It is Catholic justification as seen from a Protestant viewpoint. Certainly you can follow his point? Grace is not grace unless it is by faith so unless the Catholic viewpoint is by faith ALONE, then his assessment is accurate.Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-48392609511433848292007-10-16T16:59:00.000-04:002007-10-16T16:59:00.000-04:00Is Gerstner's construal of the Catholic understand...Is Gerstner's construal of the Catholic understanding of justification accurate? No. I hope that anyone hoping to truly understand the Catholic view will read some good Catholic presentations on the subject. I stress the plural ("presentations"), because in fact a diversity of views exist within the Catholic Church, bounded by the dogmas of Trent. But an excellent place to begin is John Henry Newman's Lectures on Justification. Though written while an Anglican, these lectures, with the Catholic footnotes, faithfully represent what has in fact become the consensual view within Catholicism. Read these lectures and you will see that it is false to say that "the Catholic trusts Christ to help him save himself."Striderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07859685939890312325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-52016160390253183892007-10-16T14:14:00.000-04:002007-10-16T14:14:00.000-04:00And I'd add that, in the biblical faith, man is re...And I'd add that, in the biblical faith, man is responsible for his sin and therefore his going to hell. Not God.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-18208057252331536872007-10-16T14:12:00.000-04:002007-10-16T14:12:00.000-04:00According to Rom 11:6 and Eph 2:8-10, grace and wo...According to Rom 11:6 and Eph 2:8-10, grace and works cannot be mixed lest grace become no longer grace.<BR/><BR/>This is why we take the whole Bible into acct when we exegete. In this case, Abel's offering was right BECAUSE he had faith. Cain's wasn't b/c he didn't. <BR/>Same with Noah - he was righteous AND SO received the command to build the ark.Rhologyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14245825667079220242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-90836393252081939632007-10-16T13:44:00.000-04:002007-10-16T13:44:00.000-04:00Why was Abel's offering "by faith" according to He...Why was Abel's offering "by faith" according to Hebrews 11:4 while Cain's was not? Because Abel followed the command God gave, to sacrifice blood, whereas Cain came up with his own idea of what to sacrifice, vegetables. Faith then includes obedience to the commands of God and grace includes God's revelation of those commands. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. What grace? Build an ark. And Noah, by grace and through faith, "prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-45178025121240757462007-10-16T12:13:00.000-04:002007-10-16T12:13:00.000-04:00Actually, I have to admit that this does make a go...Actually, I have to admit that this does make a good case for me to go easy on the "anti-Catholic" descriptor. Carrie: I take back what I said about you being an anti-Catholic zealot. You got nothing on conspiracy boy.<BR/><BR/>E i EAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-11766567708454617752007-10-16T12:10:00.000-04:002007-10-16T12:10:00.000-04:00Well, they found me out. It's a good thing I used...Well, they found me out. It's a good thing I used a handle and not my real name. David better hide, before they get him.<BR/><BR/>I was just wondering what I'd say to Carrie, whose comment I found somewhat enegmatic, then along comes this stuff. Exposed!<BR/><BR/>I know this can't be one of your regulars, Rhology. We disagree, but we both like to stay on the same planet while we do it. I won't even make any remarks about S.S. -- way too unfair a target.<BR/><BR/>E i EAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-35499056728824823392007-10-16T12:08:00.000-04:002007-10-16T12:08:00.000-04:00Alright, enough with the conspiracy junk. I'm deba...Alright, enough with the conspiracy junk. I'm debating whether to delete...Carriehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04697072499214349759noreply@blogger.com