tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post6996278553666207447..comments2024-03-22T16:09:48.895-04:00Comments on Beggars All: Reformation And Apologetics: Luther and BaptismJames Swanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16136781934797867593noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-28052155246014845632015-08-31T08:53:34.428-04:002015-08-31T08:53:34.428-04:00To make the old dusty argument clear... Attend to ...To make the old dusty argument clear... Attend to the details.<br />There are no Christians in hell. Lutherans are Christian.<br />Why not? A Christian is not an unbeliever. Unbelievers are in hell.<br />An unbeliever can call himself a Christian. Doesn't make it so.<br />TUAD... Dishonest and unchristian. You aim to confuse or misdirect in your effort to tear down a truth you refuse to accept.<br />Baptism is the assurance of salvation, God's gift to man.<br />Assurance of the gift does not prohibit rejection of the gift.<br /><br />With these simple realities... go figure for yourself your error.<br />Tom Moellerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17256864962958231180noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-10554150109419270632012-07-23T20:17:37.415-04:002012-07-23T20:17:37.415-04:00Hi TUAD.
Also, those who have been baptized and a...Hi TUAD.<br /><br />Also, those who have been baptized and are non-believers, Baptism is assurance that they will drown in their sins.<br /><br />You said: "How many people are in Hell today because they thought 'I was born again when I was baptized'? That's tragic."<br /><br />Me: Well, none. If one is mistaken on when they were baptized, this does not send them to hell.<br /><br />In Him, <br /><br />JoeJoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18261351748058047837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-92227710936728725662012-07-22T21:51:32.274-04:002012-07-22T21:51:32.274-04:00Hi TUAD.
I have been on a mini-vacation since las...Hi TUAD.<br /><br />I have been on a mini-vacation since last thursday, so that is the reason for my slow response.<br /><br />Anyhow...you asked.<br /><br /><i>Joe, do you think there are baptized Lutherans who ended up in Hell?</i><br /><br />Yes.<br /><br /><i>Do Lutherans represent one's baptism as full assurance of one's salvation?</i><br /><br />Well, what do you mean by full assurance? I would say yes that a believer can look back to their baptism as well as watching other baptisms and receive assurance of their salvation.<br /><br />I would say no to the unbeliever.<br /><br />In Him,<br /><br />JoeJoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18261351748058047837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-14261836469995026372012-07-21T16:26:11.566-04:002012-07-21T16:26:11.566-04:00"Joe, do you think there are baptized Luthera...<i>"Joe, do you think there are baptized Lutherans who ended up in Hell?"</i><br /><br /><b>Andrew:</b> "TUAD: The answer is yes. What are you driving at?"<br /><br />Answer:<br /><br /><b><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4POx8yzjDag" rel="nofollow">Regeneration and Baptism</a></b><br /><br />"How many people are in Hell today because they thought 'I was born again when I was baptized'? That's tragic."Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-48569717394668391632012-07-21T10:36:59.565-04:002012-07-21T10:36:59.565-04:00"What does that have to do with your acceptan..."What does that have to do with your acceptance of the fact that mass murderer Anders Breivik is a baptized Lutheran?"<br /><br />I never said that I accepted the fact that Anders Breivik is Lutheran. Now you are just acting like a spoiled eight-year-old looking for attention. OK, I give up. I've been trolled. I lose, you win! <br /><br />Happy now?steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-42405716219703856732012-07-21T10:33:00.414-04:002012-07-21T10:33:00.414-04:00TUAD
"If you met a baptized Lutheran that fi...TUAD<br /><br />"If you met a baptized Lutheran that fits that description, would it shock you?"<br /><br />Obviously that's a meaningless question, as you know. Someone who is a pagan is not a Lutheran. Paganism and Lutheranism are two different and contradictory things.<br /><br />Personally Zen Koans or whatever you people call them just don't get a reaction from me. <br />"What is the sound of one hand clapping?" <br />"Say Maynard, why don't you get a job and do something <br />useful instead of talking nonsense."steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-49498395180295553752012-07-21T01:49:28.353-04:002012-07-21T01:49:28.353-04:00While thankful for Luther’s great contributions to...While thankful for Luther’s great contributions to the Church and recognizing that there is no scholarly consensus on this issue, this paper will argue that Luther’s doctrine of baptism is inconsistent with his doctrine of justification by faith alone.<br /><br />...<br /><br />A related problem is that Luther’s view of the efficacy of baptism is in tension with his belief that baptism signifies and accomplishes full and complete justification. <b>This tension is created by the fact that baptized people apostatize.</b> Since people apostatize then either baptism does not save infants or complete justification is not given in baptism. Though both options are unacceptable to Luther, the fact that the work of baptism is not completed until death lends itself to the latter. Interestingly, in order to resolve this tension, later Lutheranism taught that what is given in baptism can be lost."<br /><br />Excerpted From: <b><a href="http://thegospelcoalition.org/themelios/article/sola_fide_compromised_martin_luther_and_the_doctrine_of_baptism" rel="nofollow">Sola Fide Compromised? Martin Luther and the Doctrine of Baptism</a></b>.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-10368330112888934892012-07-21T01:28:42.973-04:002012-07-21T01:28:42.973-04:00Steelikat: "If I ever read Beivik's mani...<b>Steelikat</b>: <i>"If I ever read Beivik's manifesto, I guess I'll make up my own mind without relying on the testimony of others. Actually probably not even then."</i><br /><br />What does that have to do with your acceptance of the fact that mass murderer Anders Breivik is a baptized Lutheran?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-46170703347561539812012-07-21T01:20:51.970-04:002012-07-21T01:20:51.970-04:00Steelikat: "People who have abandoned the Ch...<b>Steelikat</b>: <i>"People who have abandoned the Christian faith for paganism don't have an assurance of salvation in the Christiaan sense, and certainly don't point to their baptism as evidence of Christ's assurance of salvation."</i><br /><br />If you met a baptized Lutheran that fits that description, would it shock you?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-1137308671986029412012-07-20T22:10:35.107-04:002012-07-20T22:10:35.107-04:00All, if anyone doubts that TUAD is trolling, or th...All, if anyone doubts that TUAD is trolling, or that he has impish agenda, or thinks that he might be honest or sincere, google:<br /><br /> "baptized Lutherans" hell<br /><br />You will see that he is doing this on blogs all over the place. If look at the links, you will see that he has a predictable modus operandi. If you take the time to read a bunch of them, eventually it will become crystal-clear to you that his pretense of ignorance is just that, he has been corrected and told what Lutherans really believe multiple times, but continues to come back acting as if he's ignorant. You will also gradually begin to see that what he is doing is not a mere "prank" like the typical troll, but that he acts exactly as though he has a truly diabolical anti-Christian motivation. It will begin to look very ugly to you after awhile.<br /><br />If you don't believe me, try it. Take the time to read lots of examples of exchanges like these. I am pretty certain it will become clear to you that my description is accurate.steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-20105861274491166062012-07-20T21:55:36.935-04:002012-07-20T21:55:36.935-04:00TUAD
Andrew has said he is done.
Of course peop...TUAD<br /><br />Andrew has said he is done. <br /><br />Of course people who were Christians but aren't any more aren't "nullifying" a belief in Christ's promises, and it is blasphemous for you to hint that they are. A Christian who believes in Christ's promises is thus assured of his own salvation, he isn't assured of the salvation of a bunch of non-Christians he doesn't know.<br /><br />People who have abandoned the Christian faith for paganism don't have an assurance of salvation in the Christiaan sense, and certainly don't point to their baptism as evidence of Christ's assurance of salvation. They don't believe in baptism. Their beliefs are pagan. <br /><br />You must be getting tired. You aren't even trying anymore.steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-41845999902963780312012-07-20T21:33:45.419-04:002012-07-20T21:33:45.419-04:00Lutheran Professor Martin Marty: "3,991,545 ...<b>Lutheran Professor Martin Marty</b>: <i>"3,991,545 members of the State Church in Norway, which is Lutheran... 97 percent of the members who never shows up."</i><br /><br /><b>Andrew</b>: <i>"Again, the person who doesn't attend worship and acts like a pagan is NOT believing the promises."</i><br /><br />Andrew, so are you saying that a baptized Lutheran who doesn't attend worship services and acts like a pagan unknowingly nullifies a claim of believing in Christ's promises, and unfortunately, because of that, then possesses a false assurance of his eternal salvation through baptism?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-43966723413327856222012-07-20T21:04:30.218-04:002012-07-20T21:04:30.218-04:00And if that seems perverse and abnormal to you, it...And if that seems perverse and abnormal to you, it should. People who like "trolling" aren't really normal and they get pleasure from things that wouldn't give a normal person pleasure.steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-28601876859154794292012-07-20T21:02:59.314-04:002012-07-20T21:02:59.314-04:00Andrew,
Of course TUAD is uninterested in underst...Andrew,<br /><br />Of course TUAD is uninterested in understanding what his "opponents" believe. He has done this on several other blogs and at each of them he was told the truth as you have done. He doesn't care what you believe, and he will forget everything you and I have said to him and do this again, perhaps even on this very blog.<br /><br />Why does he do it? People who engage in the hobby of "trolling" are looking for someone to respond to them, first of all, they are looking for attention, any response, even a very simple one, is a point to them. But mostly they are trying to elicit anger. That's their main goal. If they can get somebody to positively hate them it's like winning the Superbowl. They are heroes in the trolling subculture. Why do you think TUAD kept suggesting that I am "hostile" or "aggressive?" It's because that's his main goal, to elicit hostility. He's not going to think he's really won the game if he doesn't make somebody angry.steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-7233567728861010122012-07-20T20:43:13.847-04:002012-07-20T20:43:13.847-04:00"Steelikat,
Do you deny that Anders Breivik ..."Steelikat,<br /><br />Do you deny that Anders Breivik is a baptized Lutheran?"<br /><br />I am reading conflicting testimony, one story from a theologian and some Pastors, and a different story from you. I have caught you being less than honest in this very discussion. I have also witnessed you, in the past, do some crazy things that make no sense, I won't remind you what they are. Why should I believe you rather than them? You haven't assured me of your trustworthiness.<br /><br />If I ever read Beivik's manifesto, I guess I'll make up my own mind without relying on the testimony of others. Actually probably not even then. It would be silly for me to think I can understand Norwegian well just because I can read and speak German a little.steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-11346238389301248252012-07-20T20:36:55.174-04:002012-07-20T20:36:55.174-04:00TUAD,
More nonsense from you. What would Luther s...TUAD,<br /><br />More nonsense from you. What would Luther say to someone who has abandoned the faith he once professed and brags about his apostasy and embrace of paganism? He would offer to that person the second part of Christ's promise, the one about people who don't believe being damned. The objective assurance that we find in Christ's promises is for repentant Christians who fear they are "one of the elect" or who think they aren't good enough to be saved, not for people who used to be Christians but have apostasized and become "neo pagans."<br /><br />Your attempts to make Christians doubt and lose their assurance are failing, just as they have failed every time. Why do you keep doing it? Why do you waste your time?steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-88996049728075764622012-07-20T20:35:24.469-04:002012-07-20T20:35:24.469-04:00TUAD: You are clearly uninterested in understandin...TUAD: You are clearly uninterested in understanding your opponents here. That's too bad because it could be an opportunity for iron to sharpen iron. Instead you're using it as an opportunity to be obtuse. I am going to be done with this exchange. If you change your mind and really want to understand the Lutheran position and THEN critique it, let me know.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-91841968317050818272012-07-20T20:32:32.813-04:002012-07-20T20:32:32.813-04:00TUAD SAID: "What would you say to this baptiz...TUAD SAID: "What would you say to this baptized Lutheran who is part of Dr. Martin Marty's "97 percent of the members who never shows up" who's been taught that he has the full assurance of his salvation because he's been baptized a Lutheran?"<br /><br />Lutherans don't teach that your assurance comes from being baptized a Lutheran. You would know that if you read some Lutheran theology, or listened to waht Steelikat and I are saying. The assurance comes from Christ's promise and that promise is attached to baptism. Again, the person who doesn't attend worship and acts like a pagan is NOT believing the promises. So your continued use of that example is irrelevant. I have already told you what I would do in that situation. Why keep asking?Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-31187991876296985612012-07-20T20:26:52.593-04:002012-07-20T20:26:52.593-04:00Steelikat,
Do you deny that Anders Breivik is a b...Steelikat,<br /><br />Do you deny that Anders Breivik is a baptized Lutheran?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-67904777825552887062012-07-20T20:25:39.469-04:002012-07-20T20:25:39.469-04:00TUAD,
"Steelikat, mass murderer Anders Breiv...TUAD,<br /><br />"Steelikat, mass murderer Anders Breivik is a baptized Lutheran, and per Lutheran dogma, he has the full assurance of his salvation because of his baptism."<br /><br />So you say. Again, have you read the words that Breivik wrote in his manifesto and do you know that the faith he professes with those words is a Christian faith? Intelligent people who should know, Pastors and theologians, have assured us that what he was professing was nothing but fascist politics and neopaganism with Christian trappings. <br /><br />I don't know that those Pastors and theologians are right and you are wrong, but so far you haven't even said that you read his manifesto. Why should we believe you?steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-3254368480910112102012-07-20T20:21:51.767-04:002012-07-20T20:21:51.767-04:00Andrew, suppose a baptized Lutheran said the follo...Andrew, suppose a baptized Lutheran said the following to you:<br /><br />"Most every Lutheran I know who's been baptized doesn't go to church anymore. Our lives are virtually indistinguishable from unbaptized pagans."<br /><br />What would you say to this baptized Lutheran who is part of Dr. Martin Marty's "97 percent of the members who never shows up" who's been taught that he has the full assurance of his salvation because he's been baptized a Lutheran?Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-61346600427754105532012-07-20T20:20:12.745-04:002012-07-20T20:20:12.745-04:00TUAD,
"NOT baptism."
Can you prove tha...TUAD,<br /><br />"NOT baptism."<br /><br />Can you prove that when Christ said if we believe and are baptized we will be saved that he wasn't talking about baptism?" "Baptized" is a participle derived from "to baptize" and "baptism" is a verbal noun derived from "to baptize." Why would anyone think He isn't talking about baptism? <br /><br />"Look at the ending part of Mark 16:16 and don't neglect or overlook it: 'but he that believeth not shall be damned.'"<br /><br />I haven't neglected nor overlooked it. I believe that Christ was telling the truth when He said that. Are you saying that Christ was telling the truth in the second half of the sentence but lying in the first half? Why should anyone think that makes sense? You aren't even skilled at insinuating. I could have done better.<br /><br />"Not being baptized will not damn a person." <br /><br />Nonsense. Every sin a person commits will damn him. No sin is trivial, they just seem trivial to us (when they do) because we have depraved consciences. That's one of the reasons our works won't save us.<br /><br />Of course I understand what you are saying, I am just puzzled that you use insinuation and vague implication rather than proclaiming it forthrightly. If it really is something you believe you shouldn't be ashamed of it and tiptoe around it, while working like the dickens to try to plant doubt in the minds of Christians. You insinuate, without coming out and saying it, that the bible is mixing a truth with an untruth, and that Christians are fools for trusting in the promises that the bible tells us are Christ's very words.steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-30431973323870831822012-07-20T20:13:39.269-04:002012-07-20T20:13:39.269-04:00TUAD: You wrote in part "Breivik: "Most ...TUAD: You wrote in part "Breivik: "Most everyone I know who's been baptized doesn't go to church anymore. Our lives are virtually indistinguishable from unbaptized pagans."<br /><br />Andrew: "Hey, we all struggle at times. Cling to the promises of your baptism."<br /><br />In your scenario the man I am talking to doesn't actually seem to be clinging to Christ's promise at all. I reject the words you put into my mouth and I wouldn't say them to a person who doesn't attend worship and unrepentantly behaves like a pagan. In other words he would not be clinging to the promises of baptism. I would first remind him of the law which condemns him and then we could talk gospel. <br /><br />The is a person who may read this who knows that I am actually struggling with some of our distinctly Lutheran doctrines and that my Lutheranism is kind of "leaky" at present. But what you have done so far is simply put the worst possible construction on what you understand Lutheran doctrine to be. I know this because I have been reading Lutheran theology and trying to make sure I understand it on its own terms. You might want to try that before you make any more critiques. Refusing to let people mean what they mean when they say what they say is bearing false witness.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15056210915546208869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-18606975593980834482012-07-20T20:09:42.362-04:002012-07-20T20:09:42.362-04:00Steelikat,
You're making my point for me rath...Steelikat,<br /><br />You're making my point for me rather well. Thank you.<br /><br />Martin Marty: "<b>Think of Breivik, who was one of the 90,757,570 reported Lutherans in the world </b>(as of 2005) and who must have been one of the 3,991,545 members of the State Church in Norway, which is Lutheran, as 79.2 percent of Norwegians are. It is hard not to be baptized and a registered member of that Church."<br /><br />Steelikat: "Can you show us using Breivik's words that his profession of faith was genuinely a Christian faith rather than, as real theologians and Pastors who have read it allege, nothing but a fascist cultural and political ideology with Christian trappings?"<br /><br />Steelikat, mass murderer Anders Breivik is a baptized Lutheran, and per Lutheran dogma, he has the full assurance of his salvation because of his baptism.Truth Unites... and Divideshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08891402278361538353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19795707.post-63237454072366046572012-07-20T20:02:28.894-04:002012-07-20T20:02:28.894-04:00TUAD,
Did you read Breivik's manifesto? Can ...TUAD,<br /><br />Did you read Breivik's manifesto? Can you show us using Breivik's words that his profession of faith was genuinely a Christian faith rather than, as real theologians and Pastors who have read it allege, nothing but a fascist cultural and political ideology with Christian trappings?<br /><br />If you can't do that than you have again engaged in toxic anti-Christian insinuations. Why are you doing this, what are you getting out of it, when you aren't fooling anybody here? <br /><br />Is it nothing but a nihilistic "YHBT YL"?<br /><br />Listen, I don't care if I've been trolled, I've made sure you have no credibility and that you will have zero success in your impish plot to annoy and attack the faith of any Christians who might still be reading these comments.steelikathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07098688926233117226noreply@blogger.com